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Vapor barrier thickness?

RTcat

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32' x 50' slab for the new shop. Will sit on 2" of high density (polymur 250) foam sheets (joints taped together) loaded with Pex tubing and rebar.

What MIL thickness vapor barrier is adequate for under the foam and on top of the packed base?
 
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ConCretin

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6 mil is generally the minimum. If you intend to use any type of adhered floor covering, you might want to use a 35 mil product such as Stegowrap. It is more expensive but would help ensure the floor covering stays put.
 
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ConCretin

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brownbagg

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we use some pretty thick stuff, what you want is something that can be walked on without being rip. also dont let the concrete finisher bang their come along on the vapor barrier and ripping the plastic
 
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RTcat

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Re: Disclaimer: I'm not a "concrete guy" :)

Without having to pay for a subscription, did the article mention the reason for putting the vapor barrier on top of the insulation? Just curious. :headscrat

I'm curious too. If I put the barrier on top of the insulation, I'll just end up putting a bunch of holes in it when I fasten the PEX to the foam with the PEX staples.
 

rsa

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Re: Disclaimer: I'm not a "concrete guy" :)

Without having to pay for a subscription, did the article mention the reason for putting the vapor barrier on top of the insulation? Just curious.
No explanation, just "The vapor barrier should be placed on top of the subbase, directly underneath the concrete. If you're installing rigid foam under the slab, put the vapor barrier on top of the foam." and "For radiant slab, install 1- to 2-inch rigid EPS insulation followed by vapor barrier".

I don't have the answer, but it does seem reasonable to me. Put the vapor barrier against the concrete. Doing otherwise risks moisture getting between the barrier and the concrete, so why not put it directly under the concrete if you can? Diagrams from the DOE's Building America Best Practices Series also put the vapor barrier on top of the rigid insulation. Example.

Can the risks be so small as to safely ignore the vapor-barrier-directly-under-the-concrete "rule"? Does placing the vapor barrier directly under the concrete make it more difficult to finish the concrete surface? I don't know.

That said, two normally reliable guys on Green Building Advisor say it's OK to put it under the rigid insulation (my bolding on the first one):
The vapor (really a radon and ground-water) barrier under a slab should be either immediately under the concrete or under tongue & groove XPS with taped seams. Placing an impermeable membrane under the fill creates a reservoir for water (much worse with sand fill because of greater capillarity).
Best practice is to put the vapor barrier directly against the underside of the slab or under the foam as Robert has suggested.
BTW the article mentioned VaporBlock, Stego Wrap, Griffolyn, and Perminator as some choices for a vapor barrier.
 

rsa

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If I put the barrier on top of the insulation, I'll just end up putting a bunch of holes in it when I fasten the PEX to the foam with the PEX staples.
It's OK to have a bunch of holes in a vapor barrier (it's not OK to have a bunch of holes in an air barrier). That's according to Building Science Corporation's Dr. Joe Lstiburek. See: Vapor barriers still work if they have holes in them about half way through the podcast transcription. Not all people agree with him, but it gives me a reason not to get my ******* in a bunch when the concrete guys miss taping a 3" section of the vapor barrier.

I don't think it's practical to put the vapor barrier over the PEX. Maybe with VaporBlock's 180ºF service temperature it is. Standard 6-mil poly only has a 150ºF service temperature (from the one I looked up the specs on). I suspect there must be other valid reasons not to.
 
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