Ventless Propane Vs Mini-Split for heat?

[fordluver4x4]

I have a 32x30x10' detached garage that I'm in the process of insulating and drywalling. It will have R23 mineral wool in the 2x6 walls and blown insulation in the ceiling. I've been planning on installing a mini-split system in the future. I'm planning on a Pioneer Inverter++ 24,000 BTU that is capable of heating down to -13 and has a frost prevention mode that will keep the garage at 46 degrees when I'm not out there, then I'll just bump it up when I'm working in the garage (unless keeping the garage at 46 degrees all the time has a large impact on my electric bill). I've already installed the electrical disconnect in preparation of installing this in a year or two when time and finances permit.

I've now been offered a 25,000 BTU ventless propane wall heater for free (it's probably about 20 years old but has never been used). I do not currently have a propane tank so I would have to buy and install that (any idea on size I would need and cost?). If I do the propane heater I would only heat the garage when I'm out there. I'm guessing the propane heater would be substantially more expensive to run, but it's free except for the tank (and gas), the mini split would be around $1500.

Any Thoughts from anyone who has experience with either type of heater? I'm in southern Pennsylvania for what it matters.

Thanks

 

[HowieRoark]

I have been pondering the exact same situation! Propane was expensive this winter so I am hesitant to install my free propane furnace. But I really don't know how much it will cost to heat such a space.

 

[Showkey]

Ventless propane or NATGAS is a concern documented a 100 plus prior posts.
Many here have used them in our younger years in various forms……..most would pass on ventless today….even if it’s free.

1. fumes from combustion, consuming 02, producing CO2, NOX, CO
2. more toxic fumes from any solvent or chemicals used in the shop passing through the flame.
3. combustion add gallons of moisture to the shop.
4. they stink ( smell) making some ill, eye watering, sore throat etc related to #1

 

[toyotadriver]

I would pass on vent free heaters...even free. Yes they do make heat but the main issue is, they put out a LOT of moisture. I doubt you want moisture in a garage in a cold climate like you have in PA. Some people in dry areas of places like NM, AZ, or TX can have decent results from vent free heaters because they are in a dry climate and also don't have large heating needs unlike what you would need in PA.

With vent free heaters, you have to be concerned about using chemicals when the heater is running.

Don't do vent free. You'll initially like it because it's warm and then you'll come to dislike it when you see all the negatives. I got by with vent free heaters for years. I now have vented propane and I'll never go back to vent free.

 

[PoorUB]

Perspnally, I wouldn't put a ventless heater in my chicken coop, let alone my shop. The city I live in will not allow them to be installed.

 

[jack stand]

I'd choose to have a/c and dehumidification along with my heating abilities hands down.
Especially over LP and ventless and the hassle with the tank and gas contracts. Locally they won't hook you up without some kind of inspection and tanks have become very expensive.

 

[gmcgeo]

Perspnally, I wouldn't put a ventless heater in my chicken coop, let alone my shop. The city I live in will not allow them to be installed.

I mean i would put it in my chicken coop lol. not my garage though

 

[fordluver4x4]

So sounds like the mini-split is the way to go!

One follow up question: There's a possibility we could move in the somewhat near future (a painful thought as I work to get my dream garage finished...). IF we move it would be before I have the mini-split installed. Given that my garage will be insulated, drywalled, and painted inside; do you think the propane heater would add any value to the garage? It would then be an insulated and heated garage for a selling point, even if the heater isn't what most people would choose. Thanks for all your thoughts.

 

[gmcgeo]

So sounds like the mini-split is the way to go!

One follow up question: There's a possibility we could move in the somewhat near future (a painful thought as I work to get my dream garage finished...). IF we move it would be before I have the mini-split installed. Given that my garage will be insulated, drywalled, and painted inside; do you think the propane heater would add any value to the garage? It would then be an insulated and heated garage for a selling point, even if the heater isn't what most people would choose. Thanks for all your thoughts.

unless you are installing a direct vent propane heater in, then no a vent free wall mount may add $300 to your value.

A mini split will be much better, And i am a propane tech.

 

[Showkey]

So sounds like the mini-split is the way to go!

One follow up question: There's a possibility we could move in the somewhat near future (a painful thought as I work to get my dream garage finished...). IF we move it would be before I have the mini-split installed. Given that my garage will be insulated, drywalled, and painted inside; do you think the propane heater would add any value to the garage? It would then be an insulated and heated garage for a selling point, even if the heater isn't what most people would choose. Thanks for all your thoughts.

Mini splits are popular these days……..but……….don’t go in with the idea or concept they are perfect:

1. high cost of install. Even higher if you require heat at temps below zero. Maybe 2-5 times the cost of vented furnace.
2.potential maintenance or failures ( more or less with some brands).
3. heating and cooling cost money $$$$……in some areas electric in the most costly even witha mini splitwhich low cost than resistance heat.
4. Splits one advantage is AC if that’s a goal.

Propane and NATGAS hanging furnace is often the lowest cost of install and operation……but…… varies by location, climate, use and energy market conditions.

 

[gmcgeo]

Mini splits are popular these days……..but……….don’t go in with the idea or concept they are perfect:

1. high cost of install. Even higher if you require heat at temps below zero. Maybe 2-5 times the cost of vented furnace.
2.potential maintenance or failures ( more or less with some brands).
3. heating and cooling cost money $$$$……in some areas electric in the most costly even witha mini splitwhich low cost than resistance heat.
4. Splits one advantage is AC if that’s a goal.

Propane and NATGAS hanging furnace is often the lowest cost of install and operation……but…… varies by location, climate, use and energy market conditions.

Agreed. In todays propane market would cost way to much to heat the garage. I think the mini spilt would be a good option in todays market. Plus having the AC is really nice to have.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Ventless propane puts a TON of moisture in the air ! Anything steel will rust faster. Paint will take a long time to dry.

It will bring your temp up faster and it is a good backup for when the power is out (the fan will not draw a couple of amps).

 

[gmcgeo]

Ventless propane puts a TON of moisture in the air ! Anything steel will rust faster. Paint will take a long time to dry.

It will bring your temp up faster and it is a good backup for when the power is out (the fan will not draw a couple of amps).

depends if it is oversized. Yes it will add moister. it would have to actually be dripping off the walls to rust your tools.

i drive a snow covered jeep in and it melts off and evaporates and does not rust my tools.

I had a 30,000 btu vent free heater in my garage for a long time, never rusted my tools

 

[TractorJeff]

Southern Pennsylvania?
I would go Mini-Split only because of the A/C capability.
Nothing is ever FREE!

 

[Jackfre]

The mini-split is your best choice by far. If you have it installed make sure a part of the install is to train you on cleaning the interior of the units, not just the easily accessible filters.
Vent free heaters are intended as and approved as “supplemental” heat. I have a few of them and folks who are out of heat during power outages, which happen all the damned time here in the third world nation of E CA, frequently call me for a loaner, which I am happy to provide. They do put moisture in the air. If you recovered all moisture produced in by burNing a gallon of propane you would have a bit under a gallon of moisture. In some cases this is not a problem as the atmosphere you are running it in is cold and cold air cannot hold moisture so when properly sized and not run 24/7 the moisture will not be a problem. Until…On those spring days when it is warm outside and the shop and tool box are use cold you will find sweating tools. Running the heater then will only add to the amount of moisture. Back in my MA house with an Un heated garage I would find exactly this situation. Also, If you paint, or finish or spray WD-40 in the area of t he heater the air going into the burner will absolutely smell worse when it comes out. Way worse! You clean them with compressed air. A Rinnai you clean with 100# compressed air. ALL others you use 40-50 lb. The ODS pilot that is dirty is a big source of odors. Get a can of compressed air and blow it right down the pilot tube first and then around it. The comment about sensitivity should be looked at as well. I can walk into any building running a vent free fireplace or heater and it will hit me in the back of my throat immediately. Others in the group will not pick it up, but I do. I would keep the heater once you have run it and are satisfied that it is safe and ready to go. Wrap it up, put it back in the box keep if until you need it. The mini-split is your best choice by far!

 

[gmcgeo]

The mini-split is your best choice by far. If you have it installed make sure a part of the install is to train you on cleaning the interior of the units, not just the easily accessible filters.
Vent free heaters are intended as and approved as “supplemental” heat. I have a few of them and folks who are out of heat during power outages, which happen all the damned time here in the third world nation of E CA, frequently call me for a loaner, which I am happy to provide. They do put moisture in the air. If you recovered all moisture produced in by burNing a gallon of propane you would have a bit under a gallon of moisture. In some cases this is not a problem as the atmosphere you are running it in is cold and cold air cannot hold moisture so when properly sized and not run 24/7 the moisture will not be a problem.

for every 1 gallon of propane burned, you put 1 gallon of water vaper into the building

 

[fordluver4x4]

Sounds like I'll just stick with my original plan of a mini-split, and not bother with the VF Propane heater.

Thanks all for your thoughts!

 

[428PI]

I have a vent free (I can open my fireplace flue if I need to) and as far as adding moisture I've never even had the inside windows fog up or anything like that. The added moisture is nice in the cold dry winters here but we can definitely tell it's on by the smell (you sorta get used to it). I use it now only for emergencies or need to warm up room fast. We used to run vent free infrared heaters in the shop I worked in and you could get by with them (didn't notice any smell with them). Not the best choice though.

 

[Showkey]

“but we can definitely tell it's on by the smell (you sorta get used to it)”

Might fall under safety is for sissies ?……..But:

If it smells bad……..imagine what is in the stuff you can’t smell ?

 

[Dagny]

I'm in the business and I wouldn't put a ventless heater in putin's home. I have also installed mini splits but not without a lot of warnings they are expensive but the worst is the proprietary parts down the road are just crazy.

You hang a Reznor in the corner and it will heat your shop for 20 years before it asks for anything. lots of things will burn less gas but nothing will be as cost effective.

If you want more efficiency hang a 95% furnace up there however you have to deal with the condensate.

 

[gmcgeo]

I have a vent free (I can open my fireplace flue if I need to) and as far as adding moisture I've never even had the inside windows fog up or anything like that. The added moisture is nice in the cold dry winters here but we can definitely tell it's on by the smell (you sorta get used to it). I use it now only for emergencies or need to warm up room fast. We used to run vent free infrared heaters in the shop I worked in and you could get by with them (didn't notice any smell with them). Not the best choice though.

Vent free fireplaces / heaters, burn the air in your building..... if your house smells / or have fragrant in the house it burns it then puts it back into the air as a different smell.... so to be frank, it will only smell if you your building smells

 

[gmcgeo]

I'm in the business and I wouldn't put a ventless heater in putin's home. I have also installed mini splits but not without a lot of warnings they are expensive but the worst is the proprietary parts down the road are just crazy.

You hang a Reznor in the corner and it will heat your shop for 20 years before it asks for anything. lots of things will burn less gas but nothing will be as cost effective.

If you want more efficiency hang a 95% furnace up there however you have to deal with the condensate.

I would, preferably with out the ODS

 

[red94chev]

I'm in MD and tried a ventless propane unit a few years ago in my 30x40 shop, never again. The fumes were worse than kerosene and I'd come out the next day with the whole shop dripping water, it was terrible.

The upfront cost of my vented propane unit sucked but clean dry air is 100% worth it. I may eventually add a mini-split for ac and when it isn't that cold. I think I would go with a vented propane unit over a minisplit if you're just wanting heat.

 

[HoosierBuddy]

“but we can definitely tell it's on by the smell (you sorta get used to it)”

Might fall under safety is for sissies ?……..But:

If it smells bad……..imagine what is in the stuff you can’t smell ?

I'm a fan of ventless heaters for backup or occasional use only. Many years ago we had a late winter ice storm that took out the power in our neighborhood for four days and the ventless logset I had in my fireplace was the difference between having to move out (had a newborn at the time) or being able to make it through the outage.

People overuse them though and you do get moisture buildup on windows and even sooting on ceilings. I've had dozens of people over the years talk to me about a situation where their home's furnace has failed and they've arrived at the dubious conclusion that they should be able to avoid spending a few grand on a furnace by putting in one or two ventless gas heaters. Pennywise = Pound Foolish.

Anyway...the smell you get with these, especially ventless gas logs, is they pickup a lot of dust, dirt, and pet hair due to the draft caused by the pilot sucking in combustion air. Also any airborne solvents, deodorizers, cleaners, aerosols....all that stuff gets pulled in and deposits on the logs or heating elements. When you first turn the heater on all that stuff burns off. Assuming you don't have a room deodorizer sitting near the heater or are painting or using solvents while it's running, the odor will clear out.

It's not ideal and is not a substitute for a furnace, heat pump, or other legitimate heating system....but they can be the berries if your power is out.

Speaking of which, last year I added a single circuit transfer switch so I can run my furnace and powervent water heater off my little camping generator. The switch itself was about $100....so cheaper than a backup ventless heater. If you already have a generator that is probably an even BETTER option than a ventless heater. I like multiple options. So having both is even better yet.

Phil

 

[kelpaso1]

Ventless is a misnomer. If you are burning anything, be it NG, propane, etc there is ALWAYS the byproducts of combustion. There is no getting away from simple physics.

 

[gmcgeo]

Ventless is a misnomer. If you are burning anything, be it NG, propane, etc there is ALWAYS the byproducts of combustion. There is no getting away from simple physics.

carbon dioxide and water vapor, in a complete combustion burn. is there something else you may think that is a byproduct of propane and NG?

 

[kelpaso1]

Then why do they all say to use in a well ventilated space?

 

[gmcgeo]

Then why do they all say to use in a well ventilated space?

because it needs oxygen for a complete burn, If its not a complete burn then you get carbon monoxide. so you need a well ventilated space to feed the fire.

 

[gmcgeo]

Ventless is a misnomer. If you are burning anything, be it NG, propane, etc there is ALWAYS the byproducts of combustion. There is no getting away from simple physics.

 

[toyotadriver]

Never use ventfree heating as a primary heat source. For a backup or supplement heat source...they are ok. Not great but ok. If you insist on one, go with the radiant over the blue flame type.

 

[Jackfre]

TD is correct on the infra-red vs blue flame. Down in the meniscus of the infra-red plaque you are hitting a much higher temp than the blue fLame burner, which gives a cleaner burn with the IR. Most problems with VF are inappropriate use. Dirty, run to much, inadequate combustion air, etc. FYI, the ODS on a VF is set to turn off the burner at about 18-18.5% O2. Normal air is 20.9 O2. I built a demo box for an ODS about 30 yrs ago and used it to demonstrate to gas companies the actual operation of the ODS pilot. It was about the size of a shoe box. One the pilot was lit I could gradually diminish the air supply and you could watch the pilot flame feather off the t-couple at which point it would shut down the pilot. This was a hard lock-out. I can‘t tell you how many customers would call me saying that their VF heater would not run. I’d ask them to open a window or door and let me know hoew it did. Interesting conversations They never, when informed of what was happening called back