Vertical Mill Table Cleaning
- Thread starter Mamrak76
- Start date
macgyver37
Well-known member
I would use a razor blade to scrape it first, then use something like WD40 with a stone to finish it. This will get any raised bumps off the surface as well.
I think I'd pass on the wire wheel, you could start to roll the edges in the T slots etc.
I think I'd pass on the wire wheel, you could start to roll the edges in the T slots etc.
Grant Gunderson
Well-known member
I used white scotch right pads and some wd40 and it worked great!
Disney
Well-known member
Many people will warn you not to use scotchbrite since it does have an abrasive impregnated in it. I've seen lots of options offered. WD-40 and rags, Razors, Soak rags in evaporust and lay on the rust, diesel fuel, kerosene (or charcoal lighter fluid), ATF, etc. etc. I would do whatever you are comfortable with. Be mindful of the ways so youdon't expose them to grit/abrasives. Iwouldn't use a machine on it either way, i'd do it all by hand. If it were mine, i'd be using WD40 and razors for the heavy stuff then stone it back to a clean finish.
RoninB4
Well-known member
Clean the crud off as best you can with a brass BBQ brush and Simple Green to get the top layer of dirt off. After that, the photo below (Coarse/fine combination India stone) shows what's been used in machine shops for decades, often called a "hockey puck). Soak in kerosene or mineral spirits use in a figure "8" sort of motion. Start with the coarse side and go lightly to take off the top rust. Resist the urge to use the coarse side for more than one/two passes as it can/will take too much material off. Clean the crud off and then switch to the fine side, repeating the motion with medium pressure. Yes it's a long job "massaging" the table but it's the safest method of retaining whatever accuracy is left in the table. Check with a straightedge as you go. If the table is bowed, cupped, or warped badly then it will need to be re-machined (rather expensive for hobby work). Old battle scarred machines can still provide years of service. I might also suggest removing the table for thorough cleaning of the lead screw/ways, adjusting the gibs, and applying lube to all sliding/moving surfaces including the lead screw. The machine will like it and so will you when using it.
You're trying to evenly remove the top layer of rust so it leaves a flat/planer surface. Rust pits below the surface will have to stay there or you'll end up with a potato chip shaped surface, not good. The stone pictured below is about $20 and you'll want one for removing burrs in steel, flat stoning of work pieces, and occasional use to remove dings to the mill table and vise. Do NOT use a wire brush with steel bristles as that will scar the relatively soft cast iron surface of the table.
Index made a nice machine, some are even a bit more stout than a BP. Congratulations on the purchase. Post results.
You're trying to evenly remove the top layer of rust so it leaves a flat/planer surface. Rust pits below the surface will have to stay there or you'll end up with a potato chip shaped surface, not good. The stone pictured below is about $20 and you'll want one for removing burrs in steel, flat stoning of work pieces, and occasional use to remove dings to the mill table and vise. Do NOT use a wire brush with steel bristles as that will scar the relatively soft cast iron surface of the table.
Index made a nice machine, some are even a bit more stout than a BP. Congratulations on the purchase. Post results.
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matt_i
Well-known member
A really good tool is an Anderson (Anderson Bros?) carbide scraper. Its expensive but works fantastically.
You have to dub the corners of the brazed carbide on a stone so they won't scratch but rust gets "pushed" off.
Another possibility is to use a HSS blank toolbit in the same capacity.
Classic machinist's stone is an India stone which Norton seems to make in an orange color. A handy size is 1/2" square x 4" long.
Edit: Adding that if you ever want to get into machine-scraping the Anderson Bros scraper's carbide can easily be ground to the 5 degree negative edge that one needs. It won't be good for "rust pushing" but one can also acquire another brazed carbide from them as a separate part. Anderson Bros scraper is low carbon steel and deserves rust protection itself!
You have to dub the corners of the brazed carbide on a stone so they won't scratch but rust gets "pushed" off.
Another possibility is to use a HSS blank toolbit in the same capacity.
Classic machinist's stone is an India stone which Norton seems to make in an orange color. A handy size is 1/2" square x 4" long.
Edit: Adding that if you ever want to get into machine-scraping the Anderson Bros scraper's carbide can easily be ground to the 5 degree negative edge that one needs. It won't be good for "rust pushing" but one can also acquire another brazed carbide from them as a separate part. Anderson Bros scraper is low carbon steel and deserves rust protection itself!
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BillK
Well-known member
Mam,
This is what I use to "clean up" surfaces on my milling machines etc. WD40 works fine. I mostly use the fine side of the stone. All you are trying to do is get rid of the surface rust and any small high spots from things being dropped on the table etc. I use the same stone to touch up aluminum cylinder heads too. Just use a very light pressure.
I am pretty sure I got mine at Home Depot last time.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00CQ884UW/?tag=atomicindus08-20
laser3kw
Well-known member
red scotch brite and WD40 first.Then stone it
BillK
Well-known member
I would not use any scotch brite unless you have a real flat plate to hold it with and even then it will remove some metal where you dont want it removed. That is why the flat stone works good, it only takes the high spots.
jkeyser14
Well-known member
Naval Jelly and a gentle scrubbing with a 3M scouring pad works pretty well. If the rust is too deep you will have some pitting.
My Old Tools
Well-known member
A brass wire wheel works great and doesn't remove metal or embed particles.
Look for some PG 2000. Spray it on and let it sit a day. Then get after it with some brass or bronze brushes. Spray some more and wipe it clean with paper towels. Do that a couple of times and it will be great.
Substitute ATF for the first round if you have a bottle at hand. Its cheaper and cleans pretty well.
https://progoldmfr.com/product/pg2000-aerosol/
https://www.woodcraft.com/products/progold-lubricant-pg2000-16-ounce-pump-spray
https://allwaytools.com/tool/bb2-soft-grip-wide-brass-stripper-brush-labelled/
Substitute ATF for the first round if you have a bottle at hand. Its cheaper and cleans pretty well.
https://progoldmfr.com/product/pg2000-aerosol/
https://www.woodcraft.com/products/progold-lubricant-pg2000-16-ounce-pump-spray
https://allwaytools.com/tool/bb2-soft-grip-wide-brass-stripper-brush-labelled/
justanengineer
Well-known member
Gritless scotchbrite and WD40 is the usual go-to once major mung has been removed with a razor blade or scraper. Both gritty and gritless come in a variety of colors and brands, just rub it between your fingers to check which it is. As mentioned, pull the table to clean the ways, feedscrews, and knee bevel gears thoroughly. On a Bridgeport it’s ~15 minute job to pull the handles, end plates, feedscrews, loosen the gibs, and slide the table and saddle off onto a cart or bench.
I wouldn’t recommend using a stone to clean with, excessive stoning is how folks end up with wavy tables. Clean the table then run the stone lightly over burrs and dings every few months or years.
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I wouldn’t recommend using a stone to clean with, excessive stoning is how folks end up with wavy tables. Clean the table then run the stone lightly over burrs and dings every few months or years.
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Don't know for sure on your machine. Search around for a manual or parts list.
Might be here:
https://www.wells-index.com/manuals
RoninB4
Well-known member
It's not difficult to remove the table but it's heavy. Either get someone else to help you, use a sturdy cart that can handle 300 lbs. (no the table isn't 300 lbs.), and/or use an engine hoist. I've taken several tables off a BP but not an Index so I don't know the particulars of your machine. Generic instructions would be remove the end plate(s) screws, remove the gibs, crank out the lead screw and the table will slide out. Removing the saddle is a similar process. Removing the knee is a bit more involved, especially when installing it so a good hoist and extra hands are needed if you choose to do that. Some videos on line can provide an idea of what's involved and I'd look those up before starting.
I wouldn't be too concerned about using a fine grit stone on your table. "Excessive stoning" is a bit vague. Excessive localized stoning would be a bigger concern. Lightly running a fine grit stone over the table to check for raised divots before/after mounting a vise will not harm the table. Constantly using the rough grit side, or in one spot can. It takes quite a bit to remove even .001 from a cast iron table.
Once your table is cleaned up light pressure on the stone is all that's required. You're trying to "feel" for bumps/snags through the stone, fairly easy to do and show up as shiny spots. If/when the stone seems to glide over the surface you're done. No point trying to improve what feels flat. Using kerosene, WD, or mineral spirits is what I prefer for stones because it's thinner. Keep the stone wet to avoid clogging up the pores, you can feel when the stone needs more liquid. Many people use stones dry and that clogs up the stone, often making it useless for what you want it to do. Heavier oil can make it more difficult to "feel" what the stone is doing. Heavy oil also makes clean up a bigger, more difficult mess.
I wouldn't be too concerned about using a fine grit stone on your table. "Excessive stoning" is a bit vague. Excessive localized stoning would be a bigger concern. Lightly running a fine grit stone over the table to check for raised divots before/after mounting a vise will not harm the table. Constantly using the rough grit side, or in one spot can. It takes quite a bit to remove even .001 from a cast iron table.
Once your table is cleaned up light pressure on the stone is all that's required. You're trying to "feel" for bumps/snags through the stone, fairly easy to do and show up as shiny spots. If/when the stone seems to glide over the surface you're done. No point trying to improve what feels flat. Using kerosene, WD, or mineral spirits is what I prefer for stones because it's thinner. Keep the stone wet to avoid clogging up the pores, you can feel when the stone needs more liquid. Many people use stones dry and that clogs up the stone, often making it useless for what you want it to do. Heavier oil can make it more difficult to "feel" what the stone is doing. Heavy oil also makes clean up a bigger, more difficult mess.
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Zaxxn
Well-known member
When I got my Bridgeport, I used the blue Scotchbrite pads which are apparently non-abrasive. Cleaned with lots of WD-40 and the table came out pretty good. Stoned after with a good flat stone, just to knock down any high spots. I have to admit that my table was in pretty good shape to begin with, aside from two nasty gouges from an end mill on the loose it seems.
--Zax
--Zax
RoninB4
Well-known member
-Hey Zax. Don't recall seeing photos of your BP, hope all is well with you.
RoninB4
Well-known member
-Size? Photos? Did you run it through ALL the speeds to test for drive problems? Tooling? You're going to be busy for a while so reply when you have time.
Zaxxn
Well-known member
OMG!!! You are right - I indeed never did post any pics. So sorry for that - so much was going on since then, but I did actually get it all together and the shop set up, and have been using it quite a bit since. I just updated the original thread! https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=459089&page=6
--Zax
Yes I will get some photos tomorrow. Yea I did get
some tooling and no I didn’t get to run it because of
the VFD being sold. I did talk to a machinist who considered buying it, but let me have it after discussing. It was priced for $2500 and he was considering buying it to flip it in a package deal. He said it looked great and not abused. Will post some pics tomorrow.
Also I did start cleaning up the mill, the brass wire brush and razor scraper
are working miracles. I did scoop a nice palmgren rotary table 8 inch for $100 at this place where the bought the lathe!
RoninB4
Well-known member
Zax- Nice clean up, shop looks great.
Mamrak76- Be a little careful when using that rotab. The Palmgren line of tooling is usually sturdy enough for the home shop but the backlash in the rotary table (ro-tab) worm screw is often excessive and can/will cause bad vibration that can ruin the workpiece finish. Conventional milling (against rotation) is required, climb milling will "grab" because of the backlash and cause problems, may even shatter the end mill or gouge the workpiece. Light cuts with the lock on half-way. I may have the same model Palmgren that I re-worked but still don't trust it on anything but light cuts. A good rotab is heavy, fairly expensive, and seldom used in most shops. Good to have but not used as much as I'd like it to be. I asked about the lathe because of the numerous reports of problems with the Vari-drive in Clausing lathes. Not sounding the alarm, just something to be aware of that others have reported. Sounds like you're making progress.
Mamrak76- Be a little careful when using that rotab. The Palmgren line of tooling is usually sturdy enough for the home shop but the backlash in the rotary table (ro-tab) worm screw is often excessive and can/will cause bad vibration that can ruin the workpiece finish. Conventional milling (against rotation) is required, climb milling will "grab" because of the backlash and cause problems, may even shatter the end mill or gouge the workpiece. Light cuts with the lock on half-way. I may have the same model Palmgren that I re-worked but still don't trust it on anything but light cuts. A good rotab is heavy, fairly expensive, and seldom used in most shops. Good to have but not used as much as I'd like it to be. I asked about the lathe because of the numerous reports of problems with the Vari-drive in Clausing lathes. Not sounding the alarm, just something to be aware of that others have reported. Sounds like you're making progress.
laser3kw
Well-known member
I can confirm those thoughts. I also did some re-work to tighten it up with some success. It depends on how far you want to go and how much money you want to spend.
I am sort of fortunate where I live. This use to be a industrial powerhouse, but now has settled back to a moderate pace. The older good equipment is on the used market for cheap if you can bargain.
DocsMachine
Well-known member
- Joined
- Sep 16, 2006
- Messages
- 1,860
Semiprofessional machine restorer here. 
First off, this is not rocket science. Most of these methods suggested will work, but some also get a little carried away.
First off: Don't worry about using actual Scotchbrite, like green or maroon. First off, the grit is so comparatively fine, that it would take heroic effort, and probably a steam-driven elbow, to take a measurable amount of metal off.
Second, the rust has already damaged the surface- and even light surface rust will cause deeper divots than the Scotchbrite will.
After many attempts at using everything from wire wheels to Naval Jelly, the simplest route, in my opinion, is first, get a small razor blade holder, and a small pack of single-edge, and just push the bulk of the rust off like you're scraping frost off a windshield.
The blades dull rapidly, swap out for fresh as needed.
After the bulk is off, cut some Scotchbrite into small squares, and use some WD-40 (or your oil of choice) to scrub the new surface.
Again, the Scotchbrite wears out rapidly, replace as needed.
Wipe it clean, and you're pretty much done.
A light whetstone/oil stone also lubed with WD/whatever, lightly scuffed over the surface, will knock down any minor dings or tiny burrs from scratches.
That's really all you need.
Doc.
First off, this is not rocket science. Most of these methods suggested will work, but some also get a little carried away.
First off: Don't worry about using actual Scotchbrite, like green or maroon. First off, the grit is so comparatively fine, that it would take heroic effort, and probably a steam-driven elbow, to take a measurable amount of metal off.
Second, the rust has already damaged the surface- and even light surface rust will cause deeper divots than the Scotchbrite will.
After many attempts at using everything from wire wheels to Naval Jelly, the simplest route, in my opinion, is first, get a small razor blade holder, and a small pack of single-edge, and just push the bulk of the rust off like you're scraping frost off a windshield.
The blades dull rapidly, swap out for fresh as needed.
After the bulk is off, cut some Scotchbrite into small squares, and use some WD-40 (or your oil of choice) to scrub the new surface.
Again, the Scotchbrite wears out rapidly, replace as needed.
Wipe it clean, and you're pretty much done.
A light whetstone/oil stone also lubed with WD/whatever, lightly scuffed over the surface, will knock down any minor dings or tiny burrs from scratches.
That's really all you need.
Doc.
RoninB4
Well-known member
-I lived in Chicago for 20 years and can confirm that statement.
Been gone since 2007, no idea what it's like now.
RoninB4
Well-known member
"As requested some pics of my lathe. Let me know if you guys see anything wrong because I can still get out of it. I only made a deposit."
Hard to make an estimation without being under power. Might be just fine with a clean up, might make awful noises from the drive or have excessive wear in the headstock. You can always check for headstock deflection with a 2x4 and moderate pressure, using an indicator on the chuck. Check for excessive wear on the bed ways, particularly up near the headstock where most of the work was done.
Hard to make an estimation without being under power. Might be just fine with a clean up, might make awful noises from the drive or have excessive wear in the headstock. You can always check for headstock deflection with a 2x4 and moderate pressure, using an indicator on the chuck. Check for excessive wear on the bed ways, particularly up near the headstock where most of the work was done.
DAVE VAN
Well-known member
Let me know how you make out with the Index Mill. I have a 1953 vintage Index and love it. Pretty accurate and stout.
Good luck cleaning it!
Dave
Good luck cleaning it!
Dave
justanengineer
Well-known member
I wouldn’t buy that lathe with your money, tho I do admire whoever fed you the ridiculous line about the VFD being sold. Despite being a fan and owner of Clausing machines I must admit, the hydraulic drive on that lathe is prob the worst POS they ever designed and by far the most notorious. They made many and few still function. Run.
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RoninB4
Well-known member
-JMO but I'd pass on the SB, some models are ok (at best) but this isn't one of them. Looks like something has been cobbled together to raise the height and that will likely throw accuracy off over the distance of the bed (like turning a shaft). It may take a while, depending upon your location, but something else will turn up that's a better buy and you'll be much happier with.
justanengineer
Well-known member
Those SB Bs&Cs are only worth ~$300 with the change gears bc of the lack of a quick-change gearbox, which you’ll want more commonly for fine-tuning the power feed than threading. So not a bad deal but an undesirable machine. JMO but change gears are a PITA, I’d hold out for better.
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Cruzan80
Well-known member
IDK, I see a three and four jaw chuck, along with a steady rest. That seems to be $300 right there...
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RoninB4
Well-known member
-No way to determine if it's even worth buying regardless of price because it's not under power. Would you buy a car if you couldn't hear the motor run or take it for a test drive? You might IF you expected it to be a project. Same with machinery, buy it IF you expect to change headstock bearings, replace broken gears, etc. Some posts, here and on other sites, have made negative comments on the drive-train for this model. It should be researched whether this model uses that problematic drive-train or not. Problematic models should be avoided like the mechanical plague they are because machinery failure occurs at the most inconvenient moments. Buy machinery that's dependable and in working order. It's a bit hard for me to believe the VFD was sold prior to the sale of the lathe, the seller knows this makes machine inspection and the sale more difficult. The price of the Clausing is fairly cheap for a working lathe, this means either:
1) It's a good deal
2) The lathe has problems and the seller knows it
What other evidence is present? The dirt/crud all over the lathe means the owner didn't want to bother with cleaning it. The rust means the lathe hasn't been run recently. Why is that? The seller also has a crappy looking SB and this suggests the seller is another machine flipper that doesn't bother to go through the machines to verify it's in good working order. Selling the VFD removes/hides any responsibility from the seller and you take ALL the risk.
Buy the Clausing only IF you want a potential money pit project. Pass if you want to make chips. There's plenty of other lathes out there far more worthy of restoration than that Clausing. For your first machines I'd recommend buying machines that are in running condition. Repair/restoration of machinery requires you to already have other running machines to assist in the project.
The SB may have $300 in tooling but it's likely worn out for all but making the occasional bushing or polishing a shaft. I hate to tell you to spend more money but I'd pass on the SB too as it's not a very good lathe and was minimal even when brand new. JMO
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matt_i
Well-known member
Clausing is going to be a big step forward over the SB pictured.
The vari-drive is going to transmit power no matter if its missing, as long as the belt is intact. It will run at the lowest speed and you might not be able to go faster than that but you can work there in open belt and back gear.
Clausing is a tapered roller bearing headstock and its 5C capable, has a 1-3/8" dia ID if I recall, that's giant for a lathe of that size. There's an endless ball-chain that dips into the oil bath to lube those same bearings. I wouldn't think that's going to be a point of problem.
I'm guessing because of the crusty clutch lever way to the right that either there's something wrong with the snap ring that holds it to the apron or the apron casting itself. I'm guessing they are using the drum switch to turn it on and off.
I would not feel bad at all for a $1000 5914 if it will a) run the spindle and b) there's not mega-backlash in the cross-slide lead-screw.
Even if you spent $2000 at Clausing Service Center making it as new as possible I think you'd be money ahead of a new machine that had similar features.
The vari-drive is going to transmit power no matter if its missing, as long as the belt is intact. It will run at the lowest speed and you might not be able to go faster than that but you can work there in open belt and back gear.
Clausing is a tapered roller bearing headstock and its 5C capable, has a 1-3/8" dia ID if I recall, that's giant for a lathe of that size. There's an endless ball-chain that dips into the oil bath to lube those same bearings. I wouldn't think that's going to be a point of problem.
I'm guessing because of the crusty clutch lever way to the right that either there's something wrong with the snap ring that holds it to the apron or the apron casting itself. I'm guessing they are using the drum switch to turn it on and off.
I would not feel bad at all for a $1000 5914 if it will a) run the spindle and b) there's not mega-backlash in the cross-slide lead-screw.
Even if you spent $2000 at Clausing Service Center making it as new as possible I think you'd be money ahead of a new machine that had similar features.