Very interesting spark plug situation

[powerstroketech]

Hello all!

Im a Ford Powerstroke Technician and unfortunately drive a 4-banger.

Seeing as how I work on diesel engines, Im not very well versed on the situation that I have at hand!

I drive a 2005 Honda Civic EX SE. It runs the SOHC VTEC 1.7l engine mated to an auto-trans.

After work today I decided to replace the spark plugs. They have not been replaced before, so I figured that it was a good time to replace the timing belt and spark plugs. I decided to go ahead with this as I was starting to see that my fuel economy was beginning to drop. The car/engine has 102k miles on it. Cylinders 1 and 2 had sufficient torque on the plugs and turned out as they should. Cylinder 4's plug was only screwed in about 3-4 turns. There was quite a bit of blow-by on the plug, boot/coil, and on the top of the valve cover.

The story really begins with Cylinder 3:

I had extreme difficulty turning the plug out after 3-4 90º turns of my ratchet. As with glow plugs that I am more familiar with (and use stainless steel instead of carbon steel for the threads/body), I ran in 1/4 a turn, and then backed off 1/2 turn(if I was lucky). This began to be extremely difficult using my 12in ratchet. I decided it was a good time to go ahead and spray in some pen-oil (N-Force...I've found this stuff to have much more penetrating ability than Kroil or PB Blaster). I let it sit for a while. Alas, I was still having a difficult time turning the plug in both directions. I went ahead and sprayed down with more pen-oil and proceeded to tap the plug bolt with the plug socket.
This resulted in absolutely nothing. I went ahead and consulted with the Heavy Trucks shop foreman (he started at Honda years ago), and he came over to give me a hand. We tried several different length ratchets hoping to incrementally increase the applied torque only as necessary. Working on the 3v V8, we are quite familiar with stuck plugs. Eventually, we ended up breaking the plug, but in a way completely unfamiliar to me. The entirety of the plug separated from the thread sleeve and ground prong. The ceramic DID NOT break! I couldn't believe it! The section of the plug that has the 6-sided "nut" was still attached to the plug body, but the thread sleeve and ground prong remained seized.
After encountering this bizarre situation, we used the same tool we use to back out broken spark plugs after drilling the center out on the 3-valves. Matco makes the "official" tool for this. I'm sure some of you are familiar with the tool that I'm talking about. It snapped. Right in the damn thread sleeve. We tried many methods to get the snapped tool out of the thread sleeve, with no glory. At this point, I went ahead and installed the new plugs in the cylinders available, unplugged the fuel injector in the problematic cylinder, and started the engine up. After the engine got warmed up, I slowly raised the RPM in the hope that the air compression would blow out the broken tool.
Unfortunately this did not work.

I am at a loss here. I have a feeling that I am going to have to remove the head from the block and grab the ole chisel and punch. Getting the tool out is not really my primary concern. That steel is so brittle to maintain hardness that it will crumble easily. However, how the hell do I get the damn thread sleeve out?! Should I take a chisel to the cylinder side of the sleeve and work on it for an hour or so as to not damage the aluminum head threads, or grab some acetone, dry ice, a funnel and super-cool it and just tap it a few times so it crumbles?

Thanks in advance for any advice y'all my have, and for reading my post. Long winded yes, but I have learned that it is best to not spare any detail when it comes to auto repair!

25, young, and eager to learn.

 

[mrpizza]

I would try and drill the tool out, and then use a small file or tiny saw blade of some sort to make two cuts right to the threads through the spark plug piece, and then use a punch to knock them out... then mechanical fingers and a magnet to get all the bits! Then again I am not a pro mechanic, just tinker in my garage but I do work on helicopters!

 

[fivespdcat]

^I guess it's better than pulling the head!

I bet it's an NGK, the zinc threads do not hold up as well to corrosion, or it could just be a ton of deposits on the plug...

 

[1948]

i would try to unscrew the tool with a small chisel and hammer. im assuming its some sort of easy out type tool. i wouldnt usually recommend it, but you might want to try putting an impact on the spark plug(you said it still had the nut part right?) and just hit it lightly and in like short bursts. kinda like if you were just pulling the trigger on a handgun. it sounds like you will most likely have to chase the threads either way you go. and then vacuum out the cylinder of chips.

 

[Ign]

Long winded yes, but I have learned that it is best to not spare any detail when it comes to auto repair!

You'd think so. Sadly, you'll find that 90% of the replies clearly didn't even read 50% of your information.

IF you opt to remove the head, coming at it from the backside with a LH drill bit is at least worth a shot. I've been amazed how easily some things will thread thru but won't back out, however never had to try with dis-similar metals.

So will Matco warranty the tool??

 

[Jcslocum]

Tkae the head off and get a machine shop to figure it out on a milling machine or with an EDM to disintegrate it out of the hole. Either way it looks like the hole will have to be helicoiled once the plug is out of the hole.

You won't know what cased this until you get the head off. Maybe a local shop has an exchange head that has been rebuilt already?? Used head from FleaBay?

Good Luck

 

[Falcon67]

You could try thermal shock, but I'm not thinking you'll get real far with that. However, thermal shock and Gulf Wax have freed things I didn't think would ever free. I'd be inclined - as much as I'd hate it - to pull the head and drill the leftovers thin and try to make it give up and save the threads in the head. I'd not trust trying to drill it all straight on the car and it'd generate a lot of debris in the cylinder anyway. I'd want it on my mill table for that kind of work.

This is why the 04 SuperCrew is going to the dealer for the plug change here real soon (90K+). I ain't touching it.

 

[fivespdcat]

You'd think so. Sadly, you'll find that 90% of the replies clearly didn't even read 50% of your information.

IF you opt to remove the head, coming at it from the backside with a LH drill bit is at least worth a shot. I've been amazed how easily some things will thread thru but won't back out, however never had to try with dis-similar metals.

So will Matco warranty the tool??

Sadly 75% of all statistics are made up

If you want more details I would consider trying to drill the tool out then break the shell, vacuum the cylinder out, then use a scope to make sure you got everything, thus this would be the "shot" without taking the head off. If it doesn't work you're in the same spot you are today, pulling the head...

I'm not saying this is the right way to do it, but it might work. Me, I would pull the head since you gotta do the TB anyways...

 

[bgott]

Pull the head. You have carbon build-up locking the threads in the hole, you are going to have to do the EDM process mentioned above to blast it out. That, or maybe you can weld a nut on the bottom end of the plug and spin it out backwards. Stuck plugs ****, when I worked for Firestone we had strict orders to run the plugs back in and send the car down the road if any of the plugs tightened up while being removed.

Sometimes you can save yourself some grief if, when you have a plug start to freeze, you run them all back in and de-carb the engine with some GM top end cleaner or something like that.

 

[BBDakota]

I did a search for images "2005 Honda civic broken sparkplug" and found your not the only one with an issue like this. Others have had luck with an bolt extractor. Being you have a hardened tool broke off in yours, I would pull the head so you can get all the broken pieces of the tool out of the cylinder before you scratch the cylinder.

I always use anti-seize on plugs in aluminum heads. I do not use copper based anti-seize due to my experience in the marine industry where copper and aluminum cause corrosion/electrolysis issues on a boat.

 

[dtt454]

pull the head,

i dont know what kind of drill bits these guys are trying, but if you have ever tried to drill a broken extractor or tap, you know its a waste of time and more likely your just going to brake the drill bit off in there too.

even if you get your remaining spark plug out, your threads are already screwed up. plus this way youll be able to be sure your not just getting debris in your engine.

if you think about it this way, how much time are you willing to spend trying to get out of a few hours of work?

then either take it to a machine shop or just get an exchange head. edm machines are cool if you can find a place that has one, but your still gonna be left with screwed up threads and will want to use an insert to repair it.

 

[Copytech]

If you can get the tool out, drill out what is left of the plug and Heli-Coil it.

 

[hboy7777]

Interesting. I've worked for Honda for 15 years and have never seen this issue on the civics. I've seen it on other models and unfortunately it usually ends with the head coming off. If you do succeed put a time sert in there instead of a helicoil

 

[Falconman]

Pull the head and fix it rite......Be glad its not a v6.

 

[Nhrabill]

Another vote to pull the head, after reading your thread completely I doubt you will be able to get all of it out in one piece and without re taping the threads anyhow. when head comes off if it don't look good bring it to machine shop as suggested. They have more precise machines than most of us do. or at least me

 

[Dickey]

While not much use to you right now, I also vote for pulling the head in your current situation, in the future should you encounter a similar issue with a broken plug I'd suggest idling the engine up to temp before attempting any manner of easyout effort. The aluminum expands a fair amount and I've yet to see a plug that didn't come out after five-ten minutes of rough idling.

 

[dieselmike]

heres an easy fix: get rid of the 4 banger and get yourself a nice 7.3 =)

 

[Tarheelgarage]

Pull the head or you risk buggering up the job.

I saw same problem on an 05 about a year ago.

 

[i4ni]

I'm all for doing things the easiest way possible when it can be done effectivly. Before you broke the extractor off you may have been able to remove the broken plug by drilling or grinding if you had the room and were extremely careful although I would have tried heating and cooling methods first. Removing the head is your best bet for success and presents more viable options. ( hammer and chisel )not so much. You should be able to tap the broken extractor out from the c chamber side and then use an extractor from c chamber side. Take your time, use heat, lube, and finesse and I believe you'll get it. good luck

 

[Diddly]

Well you are already replacing the timing belt, Your half way to whipping the head off anyhow. You could spend days buggering around trying to extract it, but you. But you could have the head on the bench in less than an hour. This is not a 6l or 6.4l, head is way to easy to take a chance not removing it.

 

[Gary S]

25, young, and eager to learn.

Back in the mid-70s I was 25, young, and eager to learn. The company I worked for bought a Honda Civic for me to drive on the job. 2 or 3 years with that car told me that I would never personally buy or work on a Honda. It was a POS.

Your experience tells me I made the right decision.

 

[nehog]

I would try and drill the tool out, and then use a small file or tiny saw blade of some sort to make two cuts right to the threads through the spark plug piece, and then use a punch to knock them out... then mechanical fingers and a magnet to get all the bits! Then again I am not a pro mechanic, just tinker in my garage but I do work on helicopters!

I had exactly the same thing as the OP describes on an Isuzu 4 cylinder engine once. Broke with just the threaded bit in the head, which was ugly!

I did what Milesvdustin says, used a small 'hacksaw' blade to cut apart the remains of the plug and pull them out. I coated the saw with grease, which helps to catch the metal filings before they drop into the cylinder, once I cut to the threads in the head (but not into those) I used a punch to break the bits free. I did cut it into three pieces (two won't work, visualize what you are doing and you'll see why). Spent about two hours on it but saved having to pull the head--cleaned the threads and (with anti-seize) spun in a new plug.

(The small hacksaw type blade was for a saber saw, held with a pair of vice-grips.)

 

[rlitman]

If you do succeed put a time sert in there instead of a helicoil

+1 to this. Helicoils can leak under pressure. Not appropriate in this situation.

 

[Toymeister]

Try a screw knocker with an air hammer under 30 psi, it can't hurt at worse. At best it can knock off the corrosion and carbon. THis one is a 3/8 drive with bit adapter http://www.yardstore.com/browse.cfm/4,3701.html

 

[SGKent]

pull the head. At 102,000 you may want to inspect the guide boots if it uses them. Shame on that problem, certainly that one was unexpected and you did all the right things to get it out. A good machine shop can chisel out the broken tool bit then drill the plug with increasing drill sizes until the shell is thin enough it can be peeled away. Maybe a thread chase will fix it.

 

[awdblazer]

sell it hondas are garbage

 

[srmofo]

I can pull the head in under 2 hours taking my sweet time. Id consider that before wasting any more time. The only additional money is for the gasket. Plus if it is that stuck, it may need to go to the machine shop.

 

[racerbob4]

I've broken spark plugs off in the engine head a couple of times and had to heli-coil one head and that worked great. But I did have a similar thing happen to me in my shower. I was taking a shower and moved the whoer head up so it would spray on my face and the head and pipe broke off in my hands. There I was all soapy and water coming out of the wall. So I rinced off and turned everything off and the short pipe out of the wall had broken off right at the end of the copper pipe. I have a friend who is a plumber and called him to ask his advice. It was saturday morning so he came right over and told me that this happens about once a year to his customers. He took a fine tooth file and carefully filed the remaining pipe bit and then had a special tool that took the remains out. So off to Home DEpot to buy a new extender pipe and some of that white tape (forget what its called) and my shower has worked perfectly and thats been about three years now.

 

[countryroad82]

Sounds like some idiot cross threaded the plug at the factory and just ran it on in. I have a cousin that works for Honda on the line, if you have ever ran into an Accord with the bolts cross threaded and generally fu##ed up on the trunk lid, it was probably him. He says they keep a bigger more powerful impact on the line for when someone does screw up they just run it on in. Yeah that is assembly line work for ya'! Good luck getting that out but it sounds like you're pulling the head.

 

[powerstroketech]

Thanks for all the replies guys!

I ended up spending the day yesterday pulling the head. Honda says its a 4.3 hour job to pull the head, replace head gasket, and put it back on. What a load of ****!! That's the flat rate pay for it if someone were going to do it at the dealership.

Anyway, I pulled the head, knocked the easy-out out, drilled just a little of the spark plug sleeve out, hit it with some PB blaster, and used another easy out. I guess with drilling a little bit out it took some outward tension off and it came out. It was still damn hard to extract but nowhere near what it was when I broke the plug and easy-out.
The threads where actually not too bad and ended up just running a thread chaser though it instead of a tap. A blown head gasket that had the smallest of leaks seems to be the culprit-- rusted up the plug and there ya go.
The gasket between the injector plate and the head was also shot from being fried with EGR gases so I had to order that one. Should be here wensday.

Diddly- It took around 4 hours for me to get everything off. It's just so tight! Believe it or not, this had more **** to take off than a 6l!!

Anyway!

Thanks guys for all the replies! Should any of you have a diesel question, be sure and hit me up


Dieselmike-- Lol. 7.3. I wouldnt own anything made by International. I used to be a truck driver, and drove a Prostar and an i9700. Never stayed out of the shop, and bother were new trucks when I got them. Ill take a ford built 6.7. With that new flash that came out not too long ago, those things are amazing.
But yeah, the 7.3 is a damn fine engine. We had one in the shop a couple weeks ago with 2 million DOCUMENTED miles on it. He's had every service done at the shop. Not a single overhaul. Only thing major he's had done on it other than several clutches is a new turbo.

dtt454- I didnt need to use a helicoil. The threads were fine! Just needed to be cleaned up a little with a thread chaser.


fivespdcat- They were the stock Denso plugs.


Again, thanks for all the ideas guys!!!

 

[rwhite692]

Back in the mid-70s I was 25, young, and eager to learn. The company I worked for bought a Honda Civic for me to drive on the job. 2 or 3 years with that car told me that I would never personally buy or work on a Honda. It was a POS.

Your experience tells me I made the right decision.

Indeed, a stuck spark plug could never happen to whatever it is that YOU drive, LOL

 

[little jimmy]

I was taking a shower and moved the whoer head up so it would spray on my face and the head and pipe broke off in my hands.

racerbob4, I know its wrong but my mind read something completely different then what you wrote. Thanks for the laugh I needed it. And to powerstroketech I am glad you got it fixed.

 

[SGKent]

Thanks for all the replies guys!

I ended up spending the day yesterday pulling the head. Honda says its a 4.3 hour job to pull the head, replace head gasket, and put it back on. What a load of ****!! That's the flat rate pay for it if someone were going to do it at the dealership.

Anyway, I pulled the head, knocked the easy-out out, drilled just a little of the spark plug sleeve out, hit it with some PB blaster, and used another easy out. I guess with drilling a little bit out it took some outward tension off and it came out. It was still damn hard to extract but nowhere near what it was when I broke the plug and easy-out.
The threads where actually not too bad and ended up just running a thread chaser though it instead of a tap. A blown head gasket that had the smallest of leaks seems to be the culprit-- rusted up the plug and there ya go.
The gasket between the injector plate and the head was also shot from being fried with EGR gases so I had to order that one. Should be here wensday.

Diddly- It took around 4 hours for me to get everything off. It's just so tight! Believe it or not, this had more **** to take off than a 6l!!

Anyway!

Thanks guys for all the replies! Should any of you have a diesel question, be sure and hit me up


Dieselmike-- Lol. 7.3. I wouldnt own anything made by International. I used to be a truck driver, and drove a Prostar and an i9700. Never stayed out of the shop, and bother were new trucks when I got them. Ill take a ford built 6.7. With that new flash that came out not too long ago, those things are amazing.
But yeah, the 7.3 is a damn fine engine. We had one in the shop a couple weeks ago with 2 million DOCUMENTED miles on it. He's had every service done at the shop. Not a single overhaul. Only thing major he's had done on it other than several clutches is a new turbo.

dtt454- I didnt need to use a helicoil. The threads were fine! Just needed to be cleaned up a little with a thread chaser.


fivespdcat- They were the stock Denso plugs.


Again, thanks for all the ideas guys!!!

Awesome! Looks like you'll get the time and cost back by not having that head gasket leak worsen and you may even save on fuel costs too. Sorry it happened but it happy things will turn out well.

 

[pop pop]

No shortcut wins again! Congrats.

 

[Gary S]

Indeed, a stuck spark plug could never happen to whatever it is that YOU drive, LOL

While it could happen, it hasn't happened to me in the 45 years I've owned and driven my cars. And, it isn't likely to happen.

But, I refuse to own any engine with aluminum heads. Cast iron heads seldom have problems like this. These problems were unheard of before aluminum heads.

 

[fivespdcat]

Thanks for the update! I'm glad it all went well and the threads were still good!

 

[grjr]

here's a tip to prevent this kind of thing from happening again, use a little anti-seize compound on the threads and torque to spec. About every 30 or 25 thousand miles crack the spark plugs loose, remove them and just put them right back in. 100,000 miles is a long time to have the spark plugs in the head and promotes them getting stuck if they aren't touched in all that time.

I've worked on this generation of civic and concluded that it is quite a headache working on them compared to previous generations of honda engines.

 

[Lkdelta]

bump

 

[Drunken Yak inc]

sell it hondas are garbage

Yeah, they're not a quality built vehicle like blazers are... Oh, wait...

 

[powerstroketech]

Lmao! This thread got funny.

The car is running very well. I have seen a dramatic increase in fuel economy. The bigger part of that is because cyl4 doesnt have a spark plug just sitting in there by 3-4 threads. Did I mention that in my first post? If I didn't, the plug was just in there by 3-4 threads. I turned it out by my fingers JUST using the plug socket and 12in extension. It's quite a bit more peppy as well.

Im thinking about trading this in when the Focus ST comes out. 240+hp direct injected 4 banger still getting amazing fuel economy. SIGN ME UP!
Im normally not a Ford man, but seeing Ford jump on the DI bandwagon has me happy. It's about time an American automaker starts to catch up with the boys from Germany (BMW was the first to start mass producing DI gasoline engines IIRC).

Honda makes a fantastic car. It's not too often to see an American made gas engine pull a million miles and still run WITHOUT an overhaul. Besides, my Civic probably has more American-made parts than most American brand cars and trucks.

Better get used to aluminum heads. Just about every vehicle manufacturer is going to them. Iron and steel cant handle the insane amounts of heat from uber lean conditions required to meet EPA ****. Aluminum dissipates heat much much better. Also, saying that a broken spark plug was unheard of before aluminum heads is just asinine to state. Iron is more prone to rusting. Aluminum, while it does rust, its oxide isnt near as bonding as iron's is.

How on earth do you cross thread a head bolt?! The threads are super coarse and run forever deep. A true idiot! haha