Vessel Screwdrivers

[Buckaroo5]

I purchased three Vessel screwdrivers from JDM here in the US to for work on Asian vehicles, particularly screws associated with electronics. They are a must-have for removing MAF sensors on Toyota's but now they are my go to screwdrivers for any Phillips type fastener.....they are simply the best.

 

[snooter]

I’m betting the tips on any new Wiha/Felo/Wera driver would be very similar if not indistinguishable.

And u would be right...all like vessel are new hybrid that functions between JIS and phillips .....the issue is old JIS stuff and for that you would need a JIS old skol standard screwdriver......old JIS screwheads are usually marked with a dimple...

Sunflag 215-P series is the only true JIS stuff still made that i know of....sunflag s had a disclaimer (may be they still do) that alerted you to fact the 215P line was still configured to japanese industrial standard

I gotta order me some new vessel and try them out on regular phillips head stuff

 

[Reed Prince]

I did a quick test this evening with some of my screwdrivers and a few screws from a 20 year old Panasonic DAT recorder. Four screwdrivers are about two years old, the older Vessel is one I bought in Akihabara in 2002, and the older Wiha was bought around the same time (I think).

I applied considerable force and both Vessels and the bit from the Wera Zyklop ratchet set all worked perfectly. The newer Wiha and the other Wera aligned well, though not as precisely. The only driver that performed relatively poorly was the non-insulated Wiha, which while old has only been used in light duty situations.

 

[MayerMR]

1foxracing, please elaborate. I know what the difference is between the "standard " philips and the JIS tip. However, looking at the 2 sets you show I am not clear on the difference of the 2 between 900jf or 930 jf...... and how they relate to the JIS If I was to purchase a set that have a JIS tip which one would I pick??

I have a few VESSEL screwdrivers, I have the impact Craftsman as well as the craftsman ball handle and I also have a VESSEL ball ratcheting driver that I like using also. Thanks

Here is the write-up on the difference between the JIS and Philips. I can tell you, first hand, that the difference between the two types of drivers is truly that great.

https://www.vesseltools.com/handtools/screwdrivers/whatisjis

 

[Danglerb]

Got a special delivery from J.A.Pan today! Been looking to phase out some of my old Crapsman screwdrivers...

Funny, I bought my first Vessel screwdrivers from Sears.

 

[Qualitytools]

Both have the JIS geometry. The jawsfit version has teeth on the outside (those steps that are visible). I've got one of each in P1, and really can't tell much difference.

Thanks to all who have elaborated and shared their experiences

 

[tanukiboy]

It seems clear from this thread and others that Vessel Phillips (cross head, whatever) tips are really quite different to Snap on Phillips tips and possibly other US drivers? I've never used a US driver to compare. Does anyone who is familiar with both Vessel and European Phillips drivers from Wiha/PB Swiss etc find any significant difference when working on JIS screws? Would you say that despite the overlapping standards Vessel are more tailored towards working with JIS screws than European drivers?

I posted this diagram in another thread a while ago. It shows the dimensional specifications for JIS B 4633 vs ISO 8764-1 (DIN 5260 PH) cross-tip screwdrivers. You can see that they are almost identical, which is why European screwdrivers work fine with JIS screws. I have a bunch of Japanese Vessel, Anex, Ko-ken, KTC, Tone, Sunflag, etc. cross-tip drivers/bits as well as European Wiha, Wera, Facom, PB Swiss, etc.

Based on my experience doing handyman-type stuff around my house in Japan, I consider them fully interchangeable.

View media item 84492

 

[65k10]

And u would be right...all like vessel are new hybrid that functions between JIS and phillips .....the issue is old JIS stuff and for that you would need a JIS old skol standard screwdriver......old JIS screwheads are usually marked with a dimple...

Sunflag 215-P series is the only true JIS stuff still made that i know of....sunflag s had a disclaimer (may be they still do) that alerted you to fact the 215P line was still configured to japanese industrial standard

I gotta order me some new vessel and try them out on regular phillips head stuff

Chapman mfg makes bits they say are JIS. I bought a few for keeping on my Honda ATVs and they seem to fit right.
https://chapmanmfg.com/collections/...spoint-bits-for-japanese-indus-std-jis-screws

 

[snooter]

Chapman mfg makes bits they say are JIS. I bought a few for keeping on my Honda ATVs and they seem to fit right.
https://chapmanmfg.com/collections/...spoint-bits-for-japanese-indus-std-jis-screws

Thanks...loojs like real deal JIS......USA made a real plus

 

[Qualitytools]

So is it safe to say that any Philips looking tip made by Vessel will work on JIS standard? So for example the ones sold under the Craftsman name whether they are the impact ones or the ball handle ones. Trying to learn a bit more everyday

 

[rlitman]

So is it safe to say that any Philips looking tip made by Vessel will work on JIS standard? So for example the ones sold under the Craftsman name whether they are the impact ones or the ball handle ones. Trying to learn a bit more everyday

Yes. And those Craftsman screwdrivers made by Vessel are better priced than the ones sold directly by Vessel.

 

[mr.lemons]

Thanks for the info Reed Prince and tanukiboy.

 

[tanukiboy]

Since snooter has mentioned the Sunflag JIS 215 series screwdrivers a couple of times in this thread, I thought I would upload some pictures for anyone who is curious about them.

View media item 90909
View media item 90910
I like screwdrivers that have a through tang to a striker cap. Even if you never need to beat on it with a hammer, I figure it means the handle is really solidly attached and won't loosen up over time. As you can see, they have an unusual square shaft, which Sunflag says can be used for turning with a wrench.

Here's a close-up of the tips, which are magnetic:

View media item 90912
I should mention that the GJ member dede2897234 is the one who did all the legwork to confirm that Sunflag screwdrivers are true JIS. He actually contacted the company directly and got written confirmation. Here's a link to his post from a couple of years ago:

https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showpost.php?p=723156&postcount=48

And another post from dede2897234 with some nice pictures:

https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showpost.php?p=787219&postcount=53

Here's a link the the entire thread "Japanese Industrial Standard Screwdrivers":

https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=28491

As a final point, the square shaft of the Sunflag screwdrivers makes it a bit difficult to directly compare their tip profile against other screwdrivers with a round shaft.

(Oh yeah, the red heat-shrink tubes were applied by me. I like to color-code my cross-tip and flat-blade drivers red and blue.)

 

[apdxyk]

Thank you, Tanukiboy-San for bringing some clarity into this issue

 

[mr.lemons]

Here's a link the the entire thread "Japanese Industrial Standard Screwdrivers":

https://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=28491

What a great thread. Answers a lot of questions. There are some very interesting and informative threads on this forum.

 

[aleccolin]

Vesselmania!

 

[Gurp]

I remember doing some research on this myself and to my knowledge JIS is a Arcane standard that is no longer produced as of the last 10 or 15 years with the exception of one or two companies vessel not being one of them. It is though quite common for a an American distributor to put JIS in the description or a logo in the picture as the v i n standard it's the JIS screws very well. As many of you know Phillips were designed to cam out and JIS does not and neither does the ISO or the DIN standards.

 

[Sine Swept]

I keep a JIS screw beside my drivers so I can show off to people the difference.

If I put the screw on the end of my long Hozan #2 cross point I can wave that thing around like a sword and the screw will stay pinned to the screwdriver. That is the beauty of JIS.

When I worked for the Japanese, I would see JIS screws in lots of the Japanese made robots and weld jig tables. The dimple gave it away.

 

[cheechi]

Please stop spreading the B.S. about Vessel no longer making JIS screwdrivers, they are still made today.
This is from the USA distributor of Vessel tools, 2 identical "looking" scredrivers.
The first is the Jawsfit models https://www.vesseltools.com/handtools/screwdrivers/screwdriversets/900jf-kit-p123-detail

Here is the JIS models of the same "looking" screwdrivers https://www.vesseltools.com/handtools/screwdrivers/screwdriversets/900-kit-p123-detail

You can clearly see they are identified as JIS.
I've repaired 100's of Mikuni & Keihin carbs that some dipshit put a Snapon screwdriver on and destroyed it.

Both of these Vessel 900 series drivers are JIS; the jawsfit are their equivalent of ACR. FYI the Vessel 900 series drivers being sold through Amazon US are all Jawsfit models unless you specifically contact the vendor and find out they have non ACR tips available to sell you.

 

[rlitman]

...the jawsfit are their equivalent of ACR...

This, I can't really agree with. ACR ribs are on the pushing face of the flukes, whereas these weird jawsfit steps are on the outside, and I really don't understand how they help at all.

 

[Earl Grey]

FYI the Vessel 900 series drivers being sold through Amazon US are all Jawsfit models unless you specifically contact the vendor and find out they have non ACR tips available to sell you.

Yes, I just discovered this, the hard way... ...now ordering the non-Jawsfit from VesselTools with the GARAGEJRNL discount code.

 

[cheechi]

I apologize for my choice of the word equivalent. A better analogy for the jawsfit are like the teeth in the open end of FD+/wrightgrip wrenches.

I haven't used them heavily since I have only had them a short time but they haven't damaged any fasteners yet that I have noticed.

 

[mr.lemons]

I contacted JDV the US Vessel distributor asking if Vessel cross tips are designed to a specific standard but they have not replied. Reading their info on JIS I see they reference the Phillips tip as being 'designed to cam out' to prevent damage. I see this quoted a lot and wonder if it is true as it sounds unpractical. The only reference to 'camming' I can find in the Phillips patent is that any loose material that gets into the screw head will cam out. The patent states that the main advantage of Phillips is that the screwdriver does not slip out and the 'perfect fit' allows screws to be reused many times. I do not fully understand some parts of the patent so may have missed some relevant info.

JDV info on JIS.
https://www.vesseltools.com/handtools/screwdrivers/whatisjis

Phillips Patent.
https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/0f/28/e3/3e3075abbb9779/US2046837.pdf

 

[Spacey_G]

mr.lemons - I've read through the original Phillips patent and I don't see any mention of cam-out as a design feature. The profile was designed to prevent the type of slipping and misalignment that happens with slotted screws.

There is a later patent on an improved Phillips shape that does mention cam-out as a means of preventing overtightening (https://patents.google.com/patent/US2046837A/en). However, it's sort of mentioned as an afterthought. It's pretty clear the intention of the modified shape is to make it even more difficult to cam out.

My opinion is that the idea of Phillips being designed to cam out is a myth that got repeated so many times it's been accepted as fact.

 

[Reed Prince]

I pulled out a vintage American Xcelite XST-1020 screwdriver today and tested it on the same JIS screws that my various recent European tools mated with nearly perfectly. It was a terrible fit, much worse than the poorest performing German one, a 20-year-old Wiha.

I would not be surprised if cam-out as a design feature is a myth, but at least some American screwdrivers will definitely chew up a stubborn JIS screw.

When you bought one of these back in the 90s it came with Vessel screwdrivers, and that was the only driver we used to work on them.

 

[Sine Swept]

You wanna see cam out?

Take an American phillips screw and driver.

Try to screw it directly into a wall.

See how you dropped it to the floor before any work was started?

This would not be an issue with JIS.

 

[mr.lemons]

Thanks Spacey G. Makes more sense that camming out is a design flaw rather than the goal.

Reed Prince. I had to Google MTR-90. Cool looking thing.

 

[Earl Grey]

Wow, that Otari is magnificent. As the 90s wore on I'm guessing the sales of those things slowed down quite a bit.

 

[1foxracing]

When you bought one of these back in the 90s it came with Vessel screwdrivers, and that was the only driver we used to work on them.

Do the lights dim in your house when you turn that thing on??

 

[mr.lemons]

Sorry a bit here but JDV Products (US Vessel distributor) kindly replied to my email.

I asked if Vessel cross head drivers are made to JIS or European ISO/DIN standards.

Reply.

This is rather confusing, and is only compounded by the fact that no manufacturer is allowed to state that their items are “JIS”.

Directly from Vessel:

Why the VESSEL's screwdrivers are not labeled “JIS”?

As you might know, we are the oldest manufacturer for screwdrivers in Japan and made a contribution to set a JIS standard.

We do follow JIS standard for Phillips. Because technology to make screwdrivers in Japan became above a certain level already, JIS recognition system for screwdrivers is extinct in 2008.

So there is no authorized JIS manufacturer now and we cannot print "JIS" mark on the screwdrivers.

Vessel was a member and was involved with the creation of the original JIS standard for screwdrivers.

The screwdrivers are manufactured to “JIS specifications. Depending on the part number/model, Vessel industrial bits are manufactured to JIS, JCIS, DIN, and ISO standards.

 

[rick carpenter]

My "go to" Vessel screwdrivers are the 4500 series, especially if I don't want to mar the fastener (smooth tips, no JawsFit). See BigBoreFan's post below for a picture of this series.
If the screw is stubborn and I don't care about marring it, I reach for the Megadora 930 series (with JawsFit).
Of course, the nuclear option is Impacta.

Yes, I just discovered this, the hard way... ...now ordering the non-Jawsfit from VesselTools with the GARAGEJRNL discount code.

So what does JawsFit do to screws as far as installation and reusability? Some Vessel drivers are in my near future for repairs etc on our Toyotas but I really would rather not have to have one driver to remove a screw and another to install a new screw.

 

[aleccolin]

As far as I can tell the JawsFit feature would be most helpful with a screw that has some gunk or corrosion in it, preventing the blade of the driver from fully seating. In that case the serrations on the outer edge will provide a little extra bite and keep it from camming out. Same goes for fasteners with a little damage already. On clean/new/undamaged fasteners it's not actually doing anything, and from what I can tell doesn't impart any visible marks on the screw, no more than a regular screwdriver would.

 

[rick carpenter]

As far as I can tell the JawsFit feature would be most helpful with a screw that has some gunk or corrosion in it, preventing the blade of the driver from fully seating. In that case the serrations on the outer edge will provide a little extra bite and keep it from camming out. Same goes for fasteners with a little damage already. On clean/new/undamaged fasteners it's not actually doing anything, and from what I can tell doesn't impart any visible marks on the screw, no more than a regular screwdriver would.

Thanks. "JawsFit" is kinda throwing me in a mildly OCD-ish way. The claim to fame for JIS and now DIN/ISO drivers is that they don't cam out. So I guess JawsFit means they really don't cam out?

Looks like I'll get the JawsFit models (and maybe an Impacta also) because I'll be working on 20 year old vehicles.

 

[tanukiboy]

Thanks. "JawsFit" is kinda throwing me in a mildly OCD-ish way. The claim to fame for JIS and now DIN/ISO drivers is that they don't cam out. So I guess JawsFit means they really don't cam out?

Looks like I'll get the JawsFit models (and maybe an Impacta also) because I'll be working on 20 year old vehicles.

If it helps, I posted a close-up of a Vessel Megadora JawsFit tip a while ago...

View media item 80749
As you can see, the serrations aren't all that sharp, and they're only on the edges of the blades, not the sides of the blades that press against the fastener when you apply torque.