Vintage CI Surface Plate

[Tarnished]

Hay guys, picked up this old surface plate the other day.
It is 2' x 3' and 6" web. Has some dings and nicks, but overall the surface is in fair shape.

Now I am not a machinist and have no use for a surface plate as such. (my limited abilities don't extend that far!) My intended use was to put a set of CI legs that I have stored off some old long gone machine, and use it as an outside work table. Pretty much like the big one in this pic.

That top has worked so well that I thought I would do the same with the one I just picked up.
But.... After looking it over and reading up on CI surface plates, it seems that it may be a shame to destroy the plate by putting it outside to rust. Now there is no way that I would or could scrape the plate to get it back within usable limits and as I said I don't really need a surface plate. But I could use another table outside.
So what are your collective thoughts? Outside table, or save the iron for some one who deserves it?

 

[Cleave]

Definitely get it to someone that'll use it for what it is meant for. Whoever spent days hand scraping that thing would be horrified if it were just an outside work table.

 

[RoninB4]

Due to the following:

1) Your latest CI plate isn't trashed.....not yet anyway.
2) You already have several "outside" work surfaces
3) Your latest CI plate appears to be a vintage piece worthy of research (if possible)
4) Somebody spent many hours scraping that in, a real labor of love there.

I'd be horrified too if you allowed it to turn into red powder by putting it outside.

Most machinists use granite surface plates but I have a CI plate I keep indoors for all sorts of other things, just can't bring myself to intentionally allow it to be ruined. Find somebody, if you can, that doesn't have enough money to afford granite but would love to have this. With the (possible) history behind this some struggling young machinist new in the trade might treasure this.

It was good of you to post this before putting it outdoors.

 

[Tarnished]

Cleave, Roninb4, Thanks for your comment. This was sort of my opinion when I read about how labor intensive it was to hand scrape the thing. But I did read that there is not much use for an old CI plate now that most use a granite plate instead. Don't want it to be ruined, but don't want to just store it either. Welcome inputs.

 

[Whitworth]

A surface plate that size would be highly desirable to a machinist or the wanna-bee machinist crowd. Add in the vintage factor.
Sell it, even grade B Chinese import granite is around $500 for that size. Figure if you get 1/2 that price, then buy something you want for your shop. But don't give it away for cheap, even with the best of intentions, or some dum *** will buy it for a welding table or an anvil.

 

[steaks&anvils]

Coffee table. Make sure everyone uses coasters.

There might be other uses for it, a new life in another industry?

I have a 3/4in thick by 12inx20in finished steel plate that I use as a bench block/plate for my jewelry making. It has more surface area and is totally stable, unlike the typical 6inx6in bench blocks.

This renowned silversmith uses one (picture):

https://hermansilver.com/shop7.htm

I see a lot of leather working/stamping studios with large bench blocks. Although many are made of granite (counter pieces I assume).

 

[Roberts210]

Puhleeze pass that on to someone who will respect and use it. Sell it! Some machinst or wannabe wants it and will pay perfectly good $$ for it. Thanks for asking our opinions.

 

[Tarnished]

don't give it away for cheap, even with the best of intentions, or some dum *** will buy it for a welding table or an anvil.

Pretty much my original objectives!

Appreciate the comments. Seems the consensus then is to move this on to someone more deserving than I. I can do that, and I would be just as happy using a flat piece of steel for my outdoor table.
Anyone know where I could find "handles" for the plate? Sure would make moving the thing around a lot easier. Would settle for a lifting eye, but I don't think I can find an eye with the fine thread the handle hole uses.

 

[Provincial]

If you can identify the thread size, find a bolt that fits. You can then form a loop handle, or even just use a heavy straight bar, and weld it to the bolt head.

Given the location of the tapped hole, it originally may have been a piece of flat bar with one hole to fit the bolt and another, larger hole where the lifting device attached. It would make sense that the larger hole would be above the table surface when in use.

 

[RoninB4]

Pretty much my original objectives!

Would settle for a lifting eye, but I don't think I can find an eye with the fine thread the handle hole uses.

-What size/thread are they? It's likely old enough to have used standard UNF thread designation. Even two studs (not Grade 5 **** from Ace hardware) used with a sling or two short lengths of chain can be used. Eyes and hooks are preferred but some things call for creative applications. Motorcycle tie-downs are short enough to use with a cherry picker or engine hoist. Just a suggestion.

 

[Provincial]

I'd hope that Ace Hardware Grade 5 hardware would meet real Grade 5 standards. Perhaps you are thinking of unmarked Grade 2 hardware, which is often not made to the specified strength. Without markings it is hard to determine how strong the fastener is, and unless the vendor is diligent in quality control, fakes can get into the supply chain.

Proof Loads, up to 3/4" diameter:
Grade 2 - 55,000 lbs./sq. in. (no markings on head)
Grade 5 - 85,000 lbs./sq. in. (three radial bars on head)
Grade 8 - 120,000 lbs./sq. in. (five radial bars on head)

I don't trust Grade 2 fasteners for anything critical, and upsize them in the places I do use them. I look at Grade 5 fasteners as "standard", and Grade 8 as "high strength."

Metric standards are similar, and beyond the scope of this discussion.

 

[Roberts210]

I've had Chinese "grade 8" fasteners break like break sticks.

 

[MShaw]

Do you know the manufacturer? If it is Brown & Sharpe they had their own thread system into the 20th century. I once asked a B & S rep why they had "mongrel" threads. The answer was that B & S had a system and then the USA came along with the mongrel system

 

[Tarnished]

Not sure of the MFG, and the only markings I can find on it appear to be "239-22" cast on the underside. But without turning it over completely to check in webbing I don't see any other markings.
As for the handle holes, they appear to be approximately 1" with 20tpi thread, about 2 - 2 1/2 in deep. Was thinking about just using bolt, but haven't found 1" bolt with fine threads yet. While researching the plate I found numerous pictures of plates with "handles" so I am sure that there were specific handles for the thing. For lapping I think. Would make a good way support and move the plate. I also read that there should be a "felt" & wood cover for plate. Can anyone tell me more about this cover? Cover would be nice addition to keep it from surface rusting in my unheated ohio barn.

 

[larry_g]

Just an FYI on making a felt and wood cover. Make sure that you use the proper glue if gluing the felt to the wood. Some of the glues out gas when they are curing and the gas will promote rust. Sorry but I can't say the proper glue or the wrong ones, my aging mind is loosing information fast. Research wood tool box restoration and you'll find discussions on the subject.

lg
no neat sig line

 

[RoninB4]

If the holes are 1" and 20 TPI then it's a UNEF (extra fine) and you may have some trouble finding it. If you know somebody with a lathe it's not a big deal to make a couple from 4140. Verify minor diameter (.9459) and TPI (thread gauge) before getting something made. Your CI plate is less than 500 lbs ? A pair of 15/16" (.9375) rods ought to fit the holes (go full depth) if you can't find anything with that thread. Good luck.

 

[RoninB4]

+1 advice from larry g.

On wooden cover, don't use oak as it will likely corrode the iron due to tannin. Use a light coat of oil on the plate to prevent moisture in the air/wood from rusting.

I use oiled cherry for cases/covers of machine tooling but that's just my choice. Use any inexpensive kiln dried wood that's low in sap content.

 

[leg17]

Sure it is 1"-20?
Get a common 1/4-20 bolt and see if it lays in the threads evenly.

 

[Tarnished]

Thanks all, will do a little research on the glue for the felt. Guess I will go ahead and make a cover for the thing before I drop something on it while deciding what to do with it.
Ronin, appreciate the info on the UNEF thread, haven't put a mic to the inside threads yet but will try that this AM. You're saying that a 15/16 rod just stuck in the hole should work if I can't have something threaded? For the limited times that I would lift this thing, that sounds reasonable.

 

[Steveodle]

Look so much like my, "USAAF", CI plate I bought 4 years ago.
I made a plywood cover for it.
Stripped the many paint layers off and rattle canned it wrinkle black. Put it in my new shop next to some more old iron, a 12" Sheldon shaper.

Sent from my SM-N950U using The Garage Journal mobile app

 

[toolchaser]

I have what appears to be the same surface plate. The holes are 14 tpi & close to 7/8 nominal. I don't have a 7/8 UNF bolt handy, but you could probably just "kill" the threads on a standard bolt. ( That's old Swiss machinist parlance for knocking the peaks off V threads)

 

[larry_g]

Thanks all, will do a little research on the glue for the felt. Guess I will go ahead and make a cover for the thing before I drop something on it while deciding what to do with it.

As I think about this there is no reason to have to glue the felt in the cover, just lay the felt on the plate and then cover it with a box.

lg
no neat sig line

 

[RoninB4]

Ronin, appreciate the info on the UNEF thread, haven't put a mic to the inside threads yet but will try that this AM. You're saying that a 15/16 rod just stuck in the hole should work if I can't have something threaded? For the limited times that I would lift this thing, that sounds reasonable.

-The minor diameter for a 1-20 internal thread is .9459 so a 15/16 (.9375) should just fit. If the minor diameter mic's at anything smaller or if it mic's larger than .980 then it may not be a 1-20. It could even be a metric deviation of a 25mm threaded hole,not likely but who knows what's happened over the life of this piece. Won't really matter, you're just wanting to move the plate a few times and a solid rod that fits would be my first choice. The next owner can match up the threaded holes if they wish. Using a solid rod shouldn't cause any undue damage to the threads that rust/age hasn't already done provided the rod goes the full depth of the hole and the pressure is spread over as many threads as possible.

I applaud you seeking out what would be best for this survivor that most would just scrap or ruin.

 

[Tarnished]

Steveodle, If this plate decides to take up residency it will be very comfortable among its old Arn neighbors!



Quick measurement this morning with my HF mic shows 1.055in or 26.66mm for hole, 2.5in deep. So if I'm reading this correct then a nominal 1" bar should slip right in. Should be what, 1 1/8 bolt then? Still don't know thread pitch, but will work on this. Would the standard bolt threads for 1 1/8 be 7 coarse and 12 fine thread?
From what I see on googleplex it looks like the handles were specific for the plate and may have been proprietary to the company.
Continuing to work on cover...

 

[gben]

I have a small surface plate like that I bought from a guy who retired from a local foundry. It has a plate on the side that tells who made it which I will take a look at when I get a chance. Mine is about 15" wide by 24" long. After I got a much larger Starrett granite plate from a local auction of a pattern shop I put the hand-scraped iron one in my other garage out in the country so it is not as handy as it used to be for me.

https://scontent-ort2-1.**.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/12957471_1003137999777080_7304993786417957308_o.jpg?_nc_cat=105&ccb=2&_nc_sid=a83260&_nc_ohc=vr9U7g3l8nkAX_JcJF7&_nc_ht=scontent-ort2-1.**&oh=92b4b5c2404c5eef7cb24e6186f7fc53&oe=6035AEBB

 

[Tarnished]

Gben, The only marking I could find on mine is a number cast into the underside of the top.
I have not been able to check the bottom side of the web's but that is in the works soon. While I was at the steel store where I picked up a 3' drop of 1" rod, I saw a box of 1"x7" hex head bolts. I bought 2 and they fit perfectly in the plate handle holes.

While they do not screw in, (must be 1 1/8") they slide perfectly into the hole by about 4" with 3" & hex head to put a ******** for lifting. Wouldn't want to get too wild and crazy moving it around but it should work great for the occasional lift and turn with no thread damage for the next caretaker. Win Win!
Finished up the new plywood top for the plate.

I'll complete with some felt and then all I will have to do is find the indoor sq ft of floor to put it on!

 

[RoninB4]

 

[drivesitfar]

Tarnished: nice looking surface plate. I found one years ago that was about 5 inches thick with the cast iron webbing that was 3x4 and it just had an angle iron stand. sadly I traded it for some cabinets when I moved out of my big shop but wish I had room for it.

I love your legs for it and i'm hoping you are putting some cross piece(s) in the mix. yes? the one I had came with a 3/4 inch plywood top and it was from a huge logging company's shop. It sat against a wall until I needed to use it (I'm not a machinist so more for just a nice flat surface) with a pallet jack. you probably have a fork lift?

any idea how heavy it is and how are you moving it around?

your phone booth in the field does it take dimes or quarters? funny story last night we were talking too my 84 year old mother in law and she said she called 411 (got a computer voice) on her cell and noticed a $5 charge for it the next month on her bill.

nice find

 

[Tarnished]

Thanks Drives, Yes I have been loading and unloading the thing with a front end loader on my tractor. Once I have it in the shop, I can lift it with host's. Best info I can find is that it weighs about 330lbs. Little heavy for me to move around by hand. lol As for the phone booth, the pay phone for it does take nickel, dime's & quarters. Although I haven't had anyone try to use it lately. LOL

 

[Roberts210]

Looks great Tarnished! Outstanding! Attaboy.

 

[drivesitfar]

Maybe the phone booth's number is unlisted hence no calls?

best of luck on the surface plate stand!!

one option I had at my shop where I didn't have room for a tractor or fork lift was this Jet pallet jack that moved stuff around under a ton that my pallet jack wasn't able to lift high enough. if you are happy with the tractor and have the room to move it around all good, but I found this one for about 1/3 of new on craigslist and sold it 4 years later for about the same amount when i moved.

I wish I would have kept it even if it would have had to sit outside until I build my woodshop cause i loved the steel table that fit on the forks a lot that a prior owner had fabbed up.

 

[Tarnished]

Drives, I have been wanting one of those lifts for years! Unfortunately I would need somewhere to store it, and with it's small wheels it wouldn't roll very well over my gravel drives, especially with a load on it. Have compensated for not having one with the FEL!

 

[drivesitfar]

I hear you cause every bump you go over with these lifts is a pain and gravel would be worse, but maybe a good reason to pour a nice big cement pad to park and load and unload your big stuff on and off in front of your garage/shop?

interesting thing about these Jet lifts is they bolt together with 3/4 inch bolts so you can take them apart and stick them in a corner if you don't use them much or I also used to put them up against a rack so the forks were under the rack.

I had another lift that had a hand crank that was rated up to 500 pounds, but it could lift close to twice that amount if I needed it to.

i'm scratching my head wondering what FEL is so do tell or PM me if it's not printable on a thread.

 

[Tarnished]

FEL = front end loader.

 

[drivesitfar]

Thanks!

best of luck on the surface plate making the stand and find a good spot to use it cause even if you only use it as a bench it will have a good life at your place.