'vintage' push button ignition wiring help needed..

[slowtwitch73]

I have an old two (key) position 3 wire/terminal ignition switch AND a push button to actually crank the engine.

Back of the ign switch is marked acc, coil, amm (old).

Currently with *no wires* running to the ign switch, or connected in any way, the push button will crank the engine.

The push button has two wires that both run straight to the starter... one to the larger post that the pos battery cable runs to, and one wire to one of the smaller terminals.

What I am after is cranking/starting only when the key is turned AND the button is pressed!

My take is one of the wires running to the push button needs to be cut, and the resulting two ends run to different terminals on the ignition switch.

I am fuzzy as to which terminals... a two position/3 terminal switch is a bit of an (old) odd duck it seems so any diagrams I bring up don't quite mesh, and the labeling terminology is different... I am not sure what equates to what.

Any guidance appreciated...




ps I am fairly sure currently although it will crank without the key turned, it will not start without it turned (spark).

 

[APEowner]

It's unlikely that the switch can handle the current needed for the starter circuit. You'll need a relay to feed the push button that's energized when the key is turned on.

 

[AldeanFan]

Check the switch terminals with a meter but I would expect them to be power feed from battery, accessory and Ignition.

Acc is likely accessory and coil is likely ignition.

is there a starter relay or solenoid? You won't want starter power running through your key switch.

Also check if the starter button interrupta power or ground.

Is it positive or negative ground ?

 

[nadogail]

Knowledge of the make and year model of your vehicle will be helpful in suggesting a plan.

Older cars had starter systems similar to what you seem to be looking for; your local library may have information about the electrical systems of older vehicles.

 

[slowtwitch73]

^^^

It's a 53 willys but it's moot because nothing is stock.

327 motor, 12v converted.

The previous owner had a bunch of accessories.. blinkers, lights, gas gauge attached to coil terminal. I moved them all to accessories and it seems to work.

Only reason I can think of is the screws for the terminals were really pretty tiny, so he attched accessories wherever he could find room? I changed it so it has posts now as opposed to screws, so there is no lack of room.

 

[slowtwitch73]

Check the switch terminals with a meter but I would expect them to be power feed from battery, accessory and Ignition.

Acc is likely accessory and coil is likely ignition.

is there a starter relay or solenoid? You won't want starter power running through your key switch.

Also check if the starter button interrupta power or ground.

Is it positive or negative ground ?

No relay. Starter motor has an attached solenoid. Neg ground.

What should I check.. 'if starter button interupts the ground'?

 

[slowtwitch73]

It's unlikely that the switch can handle the current needed for the starter circuit. You'll need a relay to feed the push button that's energized when the key is turned on.

Isn't the switch just completing the circuit to engage the solenoid ie not the crank amperage?

The push button is a flimsy affair and it's been going 30+ years....

 

[The Cobbler]

it sounds like the push button is completing circuit for the starer solenoid to engage . I strongly suspect the key switch can power the solenoid , I don;t see a need for an additional relay. the solenoid is basically your relay for the starter . the wire that goes to the battery from the solenoid would attach to the amm terminal on the key switch ( assuming that is live when in the on position)

 

[nadogail]

Vehicles varied on how they were wired; I recall a Nash that had a starter button that was operated by depressing the clutch pedal.

 

[AldeanFan]

For a 327 you shouldn't need a relay and it should be switching the positive.
Put a test light connected to ground on the wire to the button and see if it lights up, if it does then it's switching positive as it should.

Disconnect the power feed wire from the button and replace with a wire from the coil on the key switch. Then the button will only have power when the key is on.

However, I would leave it as is so you can crank without coil power. This way a thief will crank it until the battery dies.

 

[Wrench97]

Hook one wire to the IGN position on the key switch the other to the small S terminal on the starter.

 

[The Cobbler]

Hook one wire to the IGN position on the key switch the other to the small S terminal on the starter.

he only has a 2 position switch, no ign terminal

 

[Wrench97]

he only has a 2 position switch, no ign terminal

The coil has to hook to one of the terminals if it runs and shuts off with the key.

 

[slowtwitch73]

Here is a pick

 

[slowtwitch73]

it sounds like the push button is completing circuit for the starer solenoid to engage . I strongly suspect the key switch can power the solenoid , I don;t see a need for an additional relay. the solenoid is basically your relay for the starter . the wire that goes to the battery from the solenoid would attach to the amm terminal on the key switch ( assuming that is live when in the on position)

Yes, amm is hot regardless of key, other two also hot when key is turned.

 

[slowtwitch73]

However, I would leave it as is so you can crank without coil power. This way a thief will crank it until the battery dies.

I checked how it is set up, and it will run without the key turned, but as soon as you let the push button out it stops. So it does get spark.

 

[Wrench97]

The R terminal on the starter is probably hooked up it provides 12v to the coil while cranking on Point/Condenser setups.

 

[kbeefy]

Easy Peasy. I wouldn't complicate anything hoping someone stealing it would have a hard time, add that after the fact.

12v supply to the push button from the run position on the key. Done.

 

[slowtwitch73]

Ok, I removed the hot wire from the button (coming off from behind the hot battery cable at the solenoid), and jumped a wire from the coil terminal at ign switch and it all seems to work. No cranking until the key is turned, then push button works.

Now I need to figure out why the gas gauge dances when there's pressure on the drivers seat lol.

Thanks everyone!

 

[kbeefy]

Is the tank under the dravers seat?
Sounds like a bad connection or fatigued/corroded wire.

Just start wiggling stuff and see if you can duplicate it, if not then jumper around suspected wires/connections and see if you can isolate it.

 

[slowtwitch73]

Yes, all new stuff. Tank wasn't grounding so I added a ground wire.. all good now.

 

[The Cobbler]

Hook one wire to the IGN position on the key switch the other to the small S terminal on the starter.

he only has a 2 position switch, no ign terminal

The coil has to hook to one of the terminals if it runs and shuts off with the key.

me bad. I was thinking ign was starter circuit. old brain fart

 

[APEowner]

Isn't the switch just completing the circuit to engage the solenoid ie not the crank amperage?

The push button is a flimsy affair and it's been going 30+ years....

A typical GM starter solenoid can have up to a 30 Amp inrush current and draws 8 to 10 amps while engaged.

 

[BillK]

What I am after is cranking/starting only when the key is turned AND the button is pressed!

Just curious why you want to do this ? Personally I think it would be nice to be able to bump the starter over without the ignition being on for doing compression tests etc ?

 

[slowtwitch73]

Just curious why you want to do this ? Personally I think it would be nice to be able to bump the starter over without the ignition being on for doing compression tests etc ?

In my mind it's the 'way it should be'. It would be far more likely that my 13 yo son or I would sit there trying to crank it wondering why it wouldn't start with the key not turned than any need need to crank with no spark.

It's also a manual.. don't want anyone pressing any buttons and lurching when the key is 'off' or even not inserted.

And this thing is so small and basic I could revert to the way it was sharpish if the need ever arose.

 

[BillK]

How many connectors are on the ignition switch ? Can you post a picture of the back of it ? One of the three wires must be "hot" ?

Also, what type of ignition system does it have ? Kind of strange to see a ballast resistor unless it is points.

 

[slowtwitch73]

Yes it is points. Its an engine (and ******) out of a mid 60's Corvette... all engine ancillaries are 'period'.

3 terminal.. the one marked 'amm' is hot. Other two are hot after key is turned.

 

[BillK]

Yes it is points. Its an engine (and ******) out of a mid 60's Corvette... all engine ancillaries are 'period'.

3 terminal.. the one marked 'amm' is hot. Other two are hot after key is turned.

So the wire going to the "amm" terminal must be hot all of the time. Its probably meant to be fed through an amp meter.

This should do what you want. Get rid of the wire going from the pushbutton to the big terminal on the starter. Or cap it off and keep it in case you need another 12 volt feed under the dash but keep in mind it isnt fused.

Keep in mind that my suggestions are without really knowing what they have for fuses or other protection.

If I was doing it I would probably call Painless Wiring and get a complete new harness with a modern fuse box and be done with it.

 

[slowtwitch73]

Yes it comes through a volt meter.

Yes what you say is what I did.. works good.

Thanks.

 

[nadogail]

If I were doing this job, I would have the push button energize the coil of a relay, also commonly called a "Starter Solenoid" and the relay would complete the high current circuit to the starter.

 

[The Cobbler]

^^^ it already has a starter solenoid

 

[isb cornbinder]

For a 327 you shouldn't need a relay and it should be switching the positive.
Put a test light connected to ground on the wire to the button and see if it lights up, if it does then it's switching positive as it should.

Disconnect the power feed wire from the button and replace with a wire from the coil on the key switch. Then the button will only have power when the key is on.

However, I would leave it as is so you can crank without coil power. This way a thief will crank it until the battery dies.

Is there something special about a 327 that other engines do not have?

 

[larry_g]

Is there something special about a 327 that other engines do not have?

Not the 327 in particular, the Delco starters have an integral solenoid. Most common in GM products but my Case BH is the same configuration. Where as the Fords had a remote solenoid on the inner fender.

lg
no neat sig line

 

[isb cornbinder]

So the wire going to the "amm" terminal must be hot all of the time. Its probably meant to be fed through an amp meter.

This should do what you want. Get rid of the wire going from the pushbutton to the big terminal on the starter. Or cap it off and keep it in case you need another 12 volt feed under the dash but keep in mind it isnt fused.

Keep in mind that my suggestions are without really knowing what they have for fuses or other protection.

If I was doing it I would probably call Painless Wiring and get a complete new harness with a modern fuse box and be done with it.

Painless??? I bought one of their kits for my Old Ford project. The wires had corrosion on the unterminated ends, sometimes reaching `a long way up the wires. A few of the terminated wires, at the fuse terminal were corroded. I called the customer service and in less than a minute the Talking Head laid the blame on me. This Talkin Head had no information to go on. The talking Head mentioned that some of the wire from American suppliers may have been sourced in the Orient. Thanks for nothing. In the future I will be using American Auto Wire or Ron Francis.

 

[nadogail]

^^^ it already has a starter solenoid

Not shown on the drawing. If it was not on the print, we can’t assume it’s there.

 

[The Cobbler]

No relay. Starter motor has an attached solenoid. Neg ground.

....

Not shown on the drawing. If it was not on the print, we can’t assume it’s there.

except he stated it had a solenoid

 

[BillK]

Painless??? I bought one of their kits for my Old Ford project. The wires had corrosion on the unterminated ends, sometimes reaching `a long way up the wires. A few of the terminated wires, at the fuse terminal were corroded. I called the customer service and in less than a minute the Talking Head laid the blame on me. This Talkin Head had no information to go on. The talking Head mentioned that some of the wire from American suppliers may have been sourced in the Orient. Thanks for nothing. In the future I will be using American Auto Wire or Ron Francis.

I have installed three Painless kits and have helped a few customers with theirs and I have never seen that ? Are you sure the kits you bought hadnt been sitting somewhere in a damp environment ?

 

[AldeanFan]

Is there something special about a 327 that other engines do not have?

Nothing special, just that it is a later engine that would be 12v negative ground and not the only flathead 4 that may have been 6v positive ground.

 

[slowtwitch73]

When we first got it it had all manner of stuff in it related to 6v. Gas gauge and sending unit were still 6v, there was some kind of large antique resistor to kick the 12v down to 6v to run whatever when the 'conversion' was first done but it was long abandoned. It was real ragtag. Probably twice as much wire as there needed to be, much of it original.

 

[isb cornbinder]

I have installed three Painless kits and have helped a few customers with theirs and I have never seen that ? Are you sure the kits you bought hadnt been sitting somewhere in a damp environment ?

No damp environment in the time I had the kit. The local hotrod shop where I bought this wire kit has dropped Painful from their inventory. This shop carries Ron Francis and American Autowire, now. They had other customer complaints like mine.