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Vintage vs. Contemporary Tools

GeoBruin

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There is a widely held sentiment on this site that tools manufactured in the "good old days" are usually better than their modern equivalents. This goes for everything from wrenches to vises to bench grinders and the list goes on and on. Sometimes it comes down to county of origin (e.g. older USA made tools vs. newer tools made in China) or a manufacturing process (cast or forged vs. stamped from sheet metal) but it almost always comes down to minimizing manufacturing costs that drives the "degradation" in quality of modern tools.

All that said, I'm interested in what contemporary tools are better than their older equivalents. What tools have benefited most from new manufacturing techniques or advances in material science?
 
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JR 42

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First thoughts are fine- tooth ratchets and ratcheting wrenches, also locking flex ratchets.

I don't own any, guessing pinless swivel impacts are also an improvement.

Not sure of any specific process improvements on basic tools.

edit- I think there's a fair amount of blind spot behind the idea that old tools are better- the bad ones mostly already broke years ago, so the stuff that still exists is of course good. That said, I don't recall any new sockets ringing like a tuning fork (and I'm not sure that's an indicator of actually useful quality, just a random observation).
 
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Downwindtracker 2

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Portable power tools are light years ahead of what was available in the '50s or '60s or '70s . Current combination wrenches are '70s Snap-On like. I'm talking about the Taiwanese stuff. Sockets have lead in chamfers on both ends, four healthy detents and flank drive.
 

Lassen Forge

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Back when I was making a living with my 36 tooth ratchets on my craftsman sockets, I would have given anything for a modern 80 tooth ratchet... but we had none of those then.

Modern tools kick ***, Sorry, but the reason tools still sell is technology moves forth...and a modern tech moves with the time, or moves out of the way...
 

Vintage Veloce

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New hero tools:
Nail Guns (vs a hammer)
Laser Levels (vs a water level)
Cordless (Lithium battery) Drills, Impact drivers.
Those three have changed construction.
 

ChevyEFI

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For hand use, there are some soft grip (screw)driver handles (Toptul) that are better than anything vintage.
 

Iron Beaver

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I would add combination wrenches to the list, my WrightGrip wrenches are light-years ahead of my dad's old S-K set. Not to say you can go buy a junk-o-matic set and expect it to equal a good set from 50 years ago...
 

Iron Beaver

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I would also agree that there is a substantial survivorship bias when evaluating tools from 50 or 100 years ago. For a tool to last that long it pretty much has to be good, and the ones that weren't became scrap long ago.
 

Handyandy23

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Nearly everything is a lot better (for the price).

Where the old vs new comes into play is us cheap *** SOB's. We pick up older, US made tools for $.10 to $.25 each at a yard sale, and compare them to new made HF tools at $.99 to $2.99 each, and say they are both better and cheaper.

Now, if you compared to a $14.99 SK, a $17.89 Proto, or a $33 Snap-on, you only would come out ahead on the price.

Compare to a Tekton something, or a Carlyle, or such, and most would come out about equal, but newer designs on ratchets and such would be better. Hard line tools like wrenches or sockets, the old tools would probably be the equal or better.

^ exactly this. Everything new is better than the old, if you're comparing line quality to quality. The only time the "old school" tools come into play is when discussing value for your money.

Wilton is still making new bullet vises, likely with tighter specs and more easily serviced, but they are $600+. The old US forged vise crew is more about finding a vise for flea market money, that's equivalent to something you'd have to pay hundreds of dollars for now.

Same for hand tools. If you compare high end sockets and ratchets today to high end vintage ones, the new ones have a lot more features like lead-ins, detents, flank drive, etc. But there's always the hope you can find some vintage SK sockets at a garage sale for cheap, rather than forking out big money on new ones.

As others have mentioned, things like power tools there's no comparison.

When people say "they don't make tools like they used to" they really just mean current quality tools are very expensive. And don't get me wrong, I'm a value buyer in any way I can be, and would gladly use quality vintage stuff to save money. But it's all just comparing price points, not the top end capability of current tool design.
 

zendriver

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Honestly, with the exception of maybe a crescent wrench, I'll grab new over old always.

Power tool everything newer.

Aluminum/magnesium cased power tools vs plastic? The new stuff seems to hold up and an is surly less costly to manufacture and sell.
 

RTM

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In the old Wood Working tools world, only a few people are making decent planes at a fairly high price that are better than their 1930s counterparts, when the mass produced quality was king.

Many of those same old names made **** for decades, at the bargain price point.
 

jsaw

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Ratcheting wrenches, fine tooth ratchets, cordless tools, air tools. My 3/8 impact has a lot more power than My first 1/2" impact ever had. I have a compact 1/2" impact that I use constantly. Very seldom that I even need the full size 1/2"

On the flip side, newer sockets wear out a lot faster than older ones did.
 

dutchgray

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The good cheap stuff is far better and cheaper than it ever was in the past, The really high end stuff is expensive and always was expensive but is and always was high quality.
A lot of individual products get cost engineered to reduce the price but the quality does suffer.
An estwing hammer made today is no where near as nicely finished as one from 30 years ago, but still works the same and they actually are a lot cheaper in real terms.

Good tools are available so cheaply now the amount of real junk available is actually quite low.

Power tools get better to use, power wise, features and reduction of vibration all the time but I reckon the absolute best built and longest lasting stuff was all designed in the 80's (for corded tools), cordless advances so fast you just buy new and replace as needed, its only really in the Lithium ion era that the batteries have lasted long enough that you can wear a common cordless tool out through normal use before the batteries die, then only the standard level stuff like the $99 drills.
 
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Samuel D

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I think a few things have changed:


  1. Designs have become more frivolous and faddish for marketing differentiation. So you get all sorts of fashion trends masquerading as useful features, tooth-count wars long after that made sense, new handle styles every ten minutes, gimmicks everywhere, etc. This absorbs a lot of effort (cost) for no gain and is effectively planned obsolescence.
  2. Materials and manufacturing quality have improved at all price points, adjusted for inflation. Professional-quality tools (e.g. from Taiwan) start at lower prices than their equivalents in the past.
  3. Tools are available at much lower price points than before, but at the very bottom are not always fit for purpose (e.g. 200-piece socket sets made of cheese for €40).
  4. Tools are available at much higher price points than before. The brands with heritage now sell a myth with every tool, and they don’t throw that in for free. The very best of anything now carries a tremendous premium, supported by unprecedented disposable income and obsessive connoisseurship enabled by the internet.
  5. Extreme cost-cutting has reduced the pleasure of some things. We buy online from megastores that often know nothing about what they’re selling; even expensive tools come in blow-moulded plastic cases; a few manufacturers make tools for a hundred recycled brands, etc.
  6. Since consumers are defenceless against wall-to-wall advertising in every channel, they buy far more stuff than they need. So there are many people with 34 ratchets, to take a recent example from this forum, who in the past would have had 5 good ones instead. (And nobody had 34 good ratchets in the past, because that kind of disposable income was vanishingly rare.)

There are parallels with the history of other consumer goods such as furniture, mechanical watches, cars, etc. Basic functionality and quality has got cheaper, the best has got a lot more expensive, and the middle-ground that used to represent function, economy, and durability has been eroded by the incessant need for novelty and status.
 

Downwindtracker 2

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Since this basically a mechanics forum, I didn't mention woodworking tools. When I started out as a carpenter apprentice, a top of the line handsaw real cost was no dating or drinking for two weeks. Good woodworking tools were always expensive, to an apprentice, painfully so. Top of the line Veritas tools are still expensive, but only about half as painful. And much better quality.
 

HoosierBuddy

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I'm still going to say that old machine tools kick major *** as a value proposition.

I've got a 1960 Millrite knee mill, a 1953 powermatic 1150 drill press, a 1960's Powermatic wood lathe and a late 50's South Bend Heavy 10 metal lathe that represent a good sample of these machines. They are still great machines for the home shop machinist (as long as CNC is not a requirement), will last forever in a light use environment, and they are APPRECIATING at a decent rate. All of them are worth at least twice what I paid for them 5 to 10 years ago.

On the other side, I agree with cordless tools being the big winner...and it's only going to get better in the future. I got a 1/2 cordless impact for my birthday (Makita).....what a great tool. I remember the first cordless screwdriver I bought my dad from Sears back in the day...what a joke those things were. Now you're starting to see cordless lawnmowers for cripes sake. Won't be long until we'll have cordless electric RIDING lawnmowers. It's a new day.

Phil
 

Packard V8

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Congrats to all the above replies; well-reasoned and well written.

We have to differentiate between earning a living with the tool and home/hobby use.

To some degree, we in the hobby are our own worst enemies. As with crows, new and shiny will get taken back to the nest. Nice, but absolutely necessary? Not so much.

For example, I now have a more diverse and extensive metrology box (micrometers, dial bore gauges, dial indicators, calipers, et al, than the best machine shops I paid to do my work back in 1960s. Not a single unit of my stuff was purchased new. All of it was for sale cheap because it's "vernier" old school, not digital. Today, it seems it's too difficult to read a micrometer spindle. Today, the tool has to tell the user in decimals what it's measuring.

Same with fine-tooth ratchets, ratcheting box wrenches, ball bearing slide boxes; nice to have, but some of us made a living without them for all these years.

Bottom line - is it nice to have the latest whizbang for a once-in-a-great-while hobby use or will the latest/greatest make you money every day? Does the cost/benefit really have to pay out on your income tax filing or can you afford to indulge the whim?

jack vines, whose tools are mostly the good-old-stuff.
 
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Dave455

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I think ducksface pretty much hit it.

If you look at the cost of really good tools years ago, as a percentage of average income, they were just as expensive then as now.

This is why our Grandparents pass on tools like precious jewellery. They know how much they really cost.

The difference years back, was that you only really had the very good tools, and the ‘acceptable’. If you look at an old Stanley catalogue, you will see that the cheaper tools have less polishing, less chrome, but are still just as functional.

What you didn’t have, at all, was cheap imported tools (not in the U.K. anyway). If you read an old ‘how to’ book you find advice like ‘take an old screwdriver...’. The key word is ‘old’. There were old well used tools, but no inexpensive ones!

If you want to find modern tools as good or better than the old ones, you can, but it’s not so much the type of tool you need to look for, but rather specific manufacturers.

If you have a company that perpetually looks for ways to save costs, and they do it long enough, they will succeed. The classic examples are Stanley tools. Once a byword for quality, most of their products have been cost cut to the point that they are barely fit for the purpose intended, if at all.

But, you get the opposite. If a company continually strives to produce better tools, they will succeed too. Examples (again) from the woodworking world are firms such as Lie Nielsen and Veritas, both producing planes, chisels etc of comparable quality to the old Stanley ones, if not better. Some of the Veritas designs are ultra modern too, and offer a degree of customising that was never available before.

For mechanics tools I’d agree with those who mentioned 80 tooth ratchets. Sure. The Dual 80 is waaay nicer to use than the equivalent of 20 years ago, and I think many Snap On wrenches are as good as ever. But there are other examples, such as firms like KTC who, with their Nepros range, are producing probably the finest mechanics tools that have ever been made, in JAPAN. Never thought I’d see it, but there you go!

Someone else mentioned power tools. Agreed. I love my older tools, ditto my old machine tools, but I’ve junked almost every old power tool I’ve had. The newer ones (provided you get good ones) are better in almost every respect.

I think that the key thing today is that we all have more choice. If we want to buy a cheap tool, to do a job we otherwise couldn’t, then we can. If we want top end, it’s out there. But with choice comes pitfalls. The unwary can easily fall victim to slick advertising and easy availability, and end up parting with mid grade money for low end tools. Thankfully, the GJ community are here to help...!
 
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lardy1

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For no reason other than I like doing it, I seek out old hand tools. I don't think they're any better than what's on the shelf. But I get enjoyment out of finding NOS sets of wrenches, sockets, etc. They are usually in line price wise with modern mid range stuff and often without the latest technological improvements. But I really like "Made In USA" on my tools if possible. And I don't depend on them for rent anymore.
 

Leaflessshadetree

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Seems like the simpler and "brute force" tools were made better in the old days. Vices, sledge hammers, shovels. some clamps etc. years ago they made them plenty strong.
Some of the old materials were stronger tahm they needed to be. Some worked great but had health or environmental consequences (asbestos, cadmium).

Designs, features and manufacturing processes have gotten better. Technologies have gotten better.
 

OptionalStop

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I'm still going to say that old machine tools kick major *** as a value proposition.

I've got a 1960 Millrite knee mill, a 1953 powermatic 1150 drill press, a 1960's Powermatic wood lathe and a late 50's South Bend Heavy 10 metal lathe that represent a good sample of these machines. They are still great machines for the home shop machinist (as long as CNC is not a requirement), will last forever in a light use environment, and they are APPRECIATING at a decent rate. All of them are worth at least twice what I paid for them 5 to 10 years ago.

On the other side, I agree with cordless tools being the big winner...and it's only going to get better in the future. I got a 1/2 cordless impact for my birthday (Makita).....what a great tool. I remember the first cordless screwdriver I bought my dad from Sears back in the day...what a joke those things were. Now you're starting to see cordless lawnmowers for cripes sake. Won't be long until we'll have cordless electric RIDING lawnmowers. It's a new day.

Phil

I agree the old machine tools are commanding serious premium these days and many are being bought up at auctions real quick by the buy and sell guys. I buy and sell tools once in a while and the old mills and lathes sell real quick. I regret selling my SB Heavy 10, but made a few thousand after rebuilding it.

On the electric riding mower comment, they are already being sold at HD. Electric zero turns.. no thanks. I wouldn't even want lithium batteries of that size in my garage after seeing too many of the smaller ones spontanteously bursting into flames.
 

HoosierBuddy

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I agree the old machine tools are commanding serious premium these days and many are being bought up at auctions real quick by the buy and sell guys. I buy and sell tools once in a while and the old mills and lathes sell real quick. I regret selling my SB Heavy 10, but made a few thousand after rebuilding it.

On the electric riding mower comment, they are already being sold at HD. Electric zero turns.. no thanks. I wouldn't even want lithium batteries of that size in my garage after seeing too many of the smaller ones spontanteously bursting into flames.

I would not consider selling my Heavy 10, but as I paid $500 for it (about 10 years ago)....I think my heirs will do OK when they sell all my **** someday.

Regarding large lithium batteries...seems like you would want to stay away from prius and tesla as well if you're worried about those!

Phil
 

dutchgray

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Old machine tools are actually very cheap compared to what someone had to pay to get them when they were new, its just that they are increasingly in value compared to years past, there really isn't many new high quality manual machine tools made now, the demand is virtually all CNC so the supply of good used machine tools coming out of industrial use has really dropped off.
Back in the 60's even a small toolroom quality lathe could cost as much as the house the machinest who ran the thing lived in.
 

dnschmidt

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The one thing that I know the old tools were superior to new tools is C-clamps. My old C-clamps were expensive but bulletproof. Anything you buy today at Home Depot ***** big time.
 

dr_clyde

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The one thing that I know the old tools were superior to new tools is C-clamps. My old C-clamps were expensive but bulletproof. Anything you buy today at Home Depot ***** big time.


Agreed. Clamps sold at Home Depot **** the fat one.

However, if you bought your C-clamps from somewhere other than Home Depot you would be able to purchase some extremely high quality C-clamps that are as good or better than clamps from days gone by.

USA Wilton C-clamps with copper plated spindles are easily some of the finest clamps ever made, and I can buy them brand new today.
 

Downwindtracker 2

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I remember my partner saying those are just woodworking clamps. I think he was talking about some Record clamps. Clamps came in various grades. I know have three different grades of Bessey welding clamps.
 

gatewaysysop

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There is a widely held sentiment on this site that tools manufactured in the "good old days" are usually better than their modern equivalents. This goes for everything from wrenches to vises to bench grinders and the list goes on and on. Sometimes it comes down to county of origin (e.g. older USA made tools vs. newer tools made in China) or a manufacturing process (cast or forged vs. stamped from sheet metal) but it almost always comes down to minimizing manufacturing costs that drives the "degradation" in quality of modern tools.

All that said, I'm interested in what contemporary tools are better than their older equivalents. What tools have benefited most from new manufacturing techniques or advances in material science?

To answer the question that was actually asked (I know, what a concept):

I'm a fan of some of the newer designs in pliers, whether they be US-made, German or what have you. Lot more variety and specialty stuff available for the hobbyist/homeowner price range. I'm almost embarrassed by how many pliers (as in type, not duplicates) that I have, considering my old man made do with maybe a two or three basic types in his shop for decades.

Another one I don't see tossed into the mix yet is air compressors and air tools in general for that matter. Lots of really good options now on both fronts.

Yet another might be abrasives. I don't see many people seeking out vintage blast cabinets, and new ones (especially higher end) are outstanding. Likewise on abrasives like sanding belts. The amount of choice (grits, material) seems much more extensive and affordable now.

Finally how about hammers? Same thing as the pliers, how many of us have an embarrassment of riches when it comes to hammers in our shops? Another thing where I remember my old man having a handful of wood-handled beaters and making due for decades. I feel like we are comparatively spoiled today, with a lot of really well made and well built options out there.
 
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