vinyl siding problem

[mjeff87]

I'm having a small issue with the siding on the back corner of the house (opposite the garage), trying to figure out what is causing it to buckle. Looks like someone whacked it with a broomstick, but I know that didn't happen....and the buckling only happened within the last month or so (house is about 2.5 years old, never had a problem). Can anyone offer an opinion? I've been back and forth with the builder, and they just asked me via e-mail if my neighbor's house next door has a window on the side of their house facing mine where the damage is.....(???)

Here's a few pics. I'm trying to get the builder to cover it under warranty (so far they are not willing, but I'm persistant). If nothing else, I'll replace the damaged pieces myself and eat the cost, but I don't want to fix it without figuring out what the cause is, and have to keep fixing it. I did check and the siding is cut/installed correctly (it slides a tiny bit for expansion).
Thanks,
Jeff

 

[JimVonBaden]

Looks like they installed it without enough room for expansion. Is is tight, or is it heat melted?

Jim

 

[SixStringMadness]

wow, not much I can offer up, other than it looks like a result of excessive heat somehow. By some odd chance is anything vented from that crawlspace vent?

 

[mjeff87]

It's tight, but does slide a bit side-to-side, and there's about 3/8"-1/2" end gap so I don't think it's an expansion issue.

It looks heat-damaged to me, too, but I don't know how. We have a rarely-used corner buit-in vented gas fireplace in that corner of the house (vents out the back wall around the corner and well above where the damage is).....I ran it for 20 minutes the other day and checked the area with an infared heat gun and there was no change in temp.

No cracks in the foundation to indicate the corner is settling, either.

I'm curious why the builder wants to know about my neighbor's window. Maybe sunlight reflecting off of it and hitting that corner of my house (??) We've been here almost 3 years, and this just happened within the last month. Nothing has changed that I can think of.

Jeff

 

[betterbillt]

Wow. That's gotta be caused by heat. I'd be calling the gas company to check their meter. You could have a leak under ground.

I had customer that had spots in his yard that looked like dead grass. It turned out that he had a leak. Somehow the sun ignited it.

 

[volvo]

..
Dose that heat wrap wire from the gas line go up into that area? Or is that just a ground wire?

What is in the room behind window number one. Noticed that the center window trim is cut back around the window frame, where in looks like the closest window trim appears to hang below and could be trapping any heat from escaping from that area?

 

[mjeff87]

never thought of the meter as the possible cause, not sure on the heat-wire, I'll try to follow it tonight after work and see where it goes.

Funny, because the gas company was just out to my meter on last Friday. We're installing a backup generator on the house, and they have to pull that meter and install a commercial size one to feed the unit. Think I should ask them back out and see what they think? The guy that came and looked at the meter didn't say anything about the siding, but he may not have noticed it.

I don't want to call them up and tell them I think the meter might be leaking.....would cause quite a panic

Thanks so far guys, really appreciate the input!
Jeff

 

[racerbob4]

I've inspected over 40,000 multi-family apartment units in the last 10 years for Virginia Housing Development Authority who handle the HUD money in Virginia and I have never seen anything like this. All of them had extensive use of vinyl siding. I've seen toothpick like splinters cut off the rounded part of the vinys by heavy hail and seen buckling caused by no expansion and some warping but never anything like this. You may not know it but all contractors in Virginia must be licenced in one of three possible catagories. The licencing department, located in Richmond, also has a fund to cover consumers for faulty work caused by unlicenced or bad contractors. Get some information from them and then call your contractor back and tell him you are reporting him to the licencing people for lack of response. You can also contact the Better Busines Bureau and the County Consumer people and report him but I don't think that will get your siding fixed. As a last resort you can take your contractor to small claims court and I can assure you that the courts don't like contractors who dont service their clients. You will win. As far as fixing the work its about an hour job for the contractor and maybe 1/4th of a bundle of vinyl. You have a bad contgractor.

 

[Kevin54]

If the contractor is going to **** you around, I'd find out from him where the siding was purchased and just go buy three new pieces. A sheet of Dutchlap is maybe around $5.00 give or take a piece. Then get a siding removal tool, OR....you can use a clawhammer. Get underneath the bottom of the piece above the piece you need to remove, hook it with the claw, and unzip the siding. Then you can take the nails out of the piece below it until you get the bottom piece off. Cut the new pieces the same length as the old pieces, start at the bottom, lock them in and nail them back on leving a little bit of room for the siding to slide.

Once you have your three pieces of siding, you are looking at an hour tops to remove and repair. Once you have the siding off, you may be able to tell underneath what has caused it. To me....it has been caused by heat somehow. Whether a BBQ Grille was set close to it at one time, whether some extreme heat came out of the vent from the crawlspace, but something definitely has heated it up to do that. The only other thing that would cause buckles it nailing the siding down solid where it can't slide on the nails. But normally in that case it buckles between the nails in a straight up and down pattern and not at a diagonal pattern.

Your meter, if it was leaking, you would smell a strong gas smell. It wouldn't cause the siding to melt unless it was on fire. And if the leak was on fire you would definitely know it.

 

[twocoda]

im wondering if there is sill gasket along the entire wall....or improper insulation causing heat loss from the house....but this is an oddity for sure...i would think from the way the damage is its indictive of excessive heat somehow

 

[racerbob4]

I forgot to mention that you may have some recourse through the vinyl siding manufacturer. If the weep holes are in the shape of a heart its from Heartland but somewhere on the reverse side is the manufacturers name.

Good luck

 

[mjeff87]

the first response I got from the builder was the contact info for the siding contractor that did the house (and every other house in my part of the subdivision, built roughly all at the same time). I have a 2-year warranty on the siding (we're almost at 3 years, so the builder is trying to get out of any responsibility). I can probably fix it myself for a small amount (already bought the siding tool LOL), but that's not what I'm going after. I just want to know what caused it so it doesn't happen again after it is repaired.

I'm betting on the builder claiming reflected sunlight from my neighbor's window being the cause and trying to walk away from it, but that don't jive with me. Like I said, we've been here almost 3 years, and this just happened within the last month. I'm fairly particular with my lawn/landscape and house exterior and walk the perimiter at least 1X per month, so I notice when something changes. Even more in the summer 'cause I cut the grass at least once a week, sometimes twice when it's really growing.

Jeff

 

[pattenp]

Can't tell from the picture but does the white corner piece show any signs of warp-age or melting on the edge towards the damaged siding? It looks like heat damage to me too. Could be some vandalism or some kids in the neighborhood doing something they shouldn't have been doing.

 

[nehog]

...
I'm curious why the builder wants to know about my neighbor's window. Maybe sunlight reflecting off of it and hitting that corner of my house (??) ...

the first response I got from the builder was the contact info for the siding contractor that did the house (and every other house in my part of the subdivision, built roughly all at the same time). I have a 2-year warranty on the siding (we're almost at 3 years, so the builder is trying to get out of any responsibility). I can probably fix it myself for a small amount (already bought the siding tool LOL), but that's not what I'm going after. I just want to know what caused it so it doesn't happen again after it is repaired.

I'm betting on the builder claiming reflected sunlight from my neighbor's window being the cause and trying to walk away from it, but that don't jive with me. Like I said, we've been here almost 3 years, and this just happened within the last month. I'm fairly particular with my lawn/landscape and house exterior and walk the perimiter at least 1X per month, so I notice when something changes. Even more in the summer 'cause I cut the grass at least once a week, sometimes twice when it's really growing.

Jeff

I've got to wonder why you have a two year warranty, it has been three years, that you think there should be warranty coverage? Am I missing something here?

When I saw the image I immediately thought about sun reflection from a window. Personally, I think it is unlikely, but it should be investigated anyway.

One thing I noticed was that the damage continues under the corner trim, which one would think protected from radiant heat.

Realize too that plastic melted by chemicals might look exactly like plastic melted by heat. That gas meter there kinda raises a 'red' flag. Was the damage visible before the meter was serviced or after? Has the damage gotten any worse or changed any since first discovered? Can you narrow the damage time down to a set of days, and what happened during those days?

 

[mjeff87]

no damage to the white strip

nehog....I might have worded that a bit wrong. What I'm trying to get the builder to help me with is the cause, not the actual siding replacement (but if they want to replace it I'm not gonna argue )

Can't say exactly when it happened, but it was after I put up my Christmas lights/decorations on the front of the house back in December. It wasn't there then and I just noticed it last week.

On the window/sun, I would think the problem would have happened a long time ago instead of just recently. I'm not ruling it out, but I highly doubt it's the cause. The sun comes up shining on that back corner of the house in the morning every day, and tracks diagonally across my house to sunset, on the opposite corner in the front.

Yes, the damage does continue under the corner strip, to the edge of the siding. No service was done to the meter, the guy just looked at it, wrote some numbers down, and left. The damage was there already.

Thanks for your insight :cheers:

 

[betterbillt]

Where is the generator in relationship to the photo?

 

[K'ledgeBldr]

When I saw the image I immediately thought about sun reflection from a window.

That be the answer^^^

That's probably why the builder asked "...if my neighbor's house next door has a window on the side of their house facing mine where the damage is."
By that response I'd say that they are aware of these problems. However, they can't control the the sun's rays or the compass direction of the house.

 

[mjeff87]

Where is the generator in relationship to the photo?

hasn't been installed yet, just signed the contract last week.....install won't be for about 6 more weeks

 

[Holt]

I'm willing to bet this is a heat issue from sunlight or reflection off of a window and not the gas meter. If you look at the damage you see it goes perfect diagonal. If it was gas the wind would move the gas around and it would be spotty. Also seeing how the damage is in a straight line it has to be from the sunlight hitting it for a long period of time. What I would say is during the period of time when the sun hits that side of the house take a surface temp reading all over the side of the house and not just the damage section. You will probable see the same amount of light hitting it but that corner will have a large temp difference. Take the temps at different times of the day too. Sun wont be hitting that side of the house but it will hit it on you neighbors side.

 

[powpow]

it is reflection from a window, maybe your neighbors or one of your own. I have the same thing on my house, window faces south, wall faces west, sun hits it direct and darker siding, this is more common, white not so much. I also left a fabric covered chair outside and it melted that too. Not much you can do about it, except plant some bushes maybe????

 

[Scott65]

I am inclined to side with reflective heat, but I am wondering why it took so long to show up? Was the neighbors house built after yours? I would want to remove the existing siding right away in order to make sure that there is nothing behind it that is throwing heat just to make sure.

 

[NUTTSGT]

The only time I have seen siding melted like that is an exposure to radiant heat from a house fire.

 

[ChrisF250]

Might it be worth using an IR camera when the sun/ reflection is brightest to see if temperature in that area is any different than the rest of the wall?

Also why now in the winter after two summers, seems odd

 

[betterbillt]

The only time I have seen siding melted like that is an exposure to radiant heat from a house fire.

I've seen it melt like that from idiots who put their grills right up against the siding.

I'd still have the gas checked out. I have a friend who had a rental in Elmira, Ny. He had a gas leak that blew a wall out of the house. He was lucky the tenant was in the shower.

 

[mjeff87]

neighbor house was built about a month before mine, and nothing has changed since.

I'ma gonna sit outside this weekend with a 12 pack on a lawn chair and watch the sun (provided it's not cloudy out) to see what happens. Best case is I figure out if the sun is the actual cause, worst case is I get drunk and pass out in a lawn chair on my side lawn

The gas company is coming out Monday to replace my meter in prep for the generator, I've already talked to them about the problem and the tech is going to look things over as well. Kinda doubt the meter is the cause, but I'm not ruling anything out at this point.

Will update with any pertinent info as it is discovered. Thanks again guys!

Jeff

 

[NUTTSGT]

I've seen it melt like that from idiots who put their grills right up against the siding.

That I can understand, it's all radiate heat. 350-500 degrees from a gas grill to a 1,000 degrees house fire,it's all relative to the heat source.

 

[mjeff87]

well, the builder sent out a field manager to look at the problem and he is blaming it on sunlight reflection from my neighbor's window (I wasn't there, he sent me an e-mail earlier today). If the weather cooperates, I'm gonna watch that side of the house over the weekend to see if I can tell when it's happening and where the reflection is coming from.

Once I fix it, is there anything I can do short of planting a tree or something to shade that corner of the house? Thicker siding? Offer to install some type of anti-reflection film or something on the neighbor's window?

Jeff

 

[K'ledgeBldr]

well...
planting a tree? Jeff

Plant shrubs.

 

[NUTTSGT]

Knock out the neighbor's window

 

[red98gt]

I find it hard to believe that winter sun reflecting off a window in VA, would get the siding hot enough to warp!?!?!?
Have had vinyl on my house here in Tulsa for 12 years no warps and have a neighbors window reflect the West sun in the afternoon right on the back of my house, no problems.
What kind of window is the neighbors? Does it have some kind of reflective film on it?

I would tape a piece of siding over that section and see if it gets hot? Also maybe do some photos of the sun as it moves across that section?

 

[Coloshaver]

I find it hard to believe that winter sun reflecting off a window in VA, would get the siding hot enough to warp!?!?!?

Me too. Unless your neighbor has concave windows that focus the light (sort of like a magnifying glass), how is it any different than the sun that hits the south side of your house all day every day (when it is not cloudy)?

 

[buddyboy]

ask your neighbor if they got new window treatments for christmas.

maybe they hung up new curtains that turned that window into a mirror.

 

[volvo]

..
Is it the window (symptom) or is it the siding (cause, too thin, poor manufacture, other)?

 

[RHD 4 LIFE]

I'm thinking maybe when the gas fireplace was installed the installer may have removed the drywall behind it or it may never have been installed to begin with!
There is no way reflective sunlight would cause that degree of warping!

 

[mjeff87]

I dunno guys, I'm still not convinced that sunlight/window is the cause...I'll post up a pic of the window in question and the distance between our houses this weekend. They haven't put on any new treatments, either.

If it does turn out to be the cause though, I'm sure we can both come up with a solution....we're pretty tight. He's probably one of the best neighbors I've ever had.

I don't think the fireplace is the cause either, although we don't run it much, we've definately run it some over the last two + years we've been here and nothing's ever happened.

I'm going to call the original installer tomorrow and ask them to come by and offer an opinion.

 

[NUTTSGT]

By chance is the window on the corner of the house and an adjoining window around the corner ? I might be able to understand it if there are two windows, sunlight coming through one and out the other.

 

[AMCguy]

A characteristic of sealed or thermal pane windows is that they are under a vacuum. This draws the center of the glass inwards. This indeed does create a concave or parabolic reflector capable of substantially magnifying the reflected light. At a certain distance it can be extreme.

I am in the lawn maintenance business. I have been mowing between houses and experienced this heat first hand. I have seen a lot of damage to lawns from this as well.

 

[rsa]

I too believe the damage is from a death ray...

 

[Jakkle5]

99% chance of it being heat reflecting off an external source. Windows, patio door, metal roof, metal sign etc. I've seen it plenty of times. Stand in front of the reflection that a new low-e rated window gives off in the afternoon sun. Winter or summer, its very hot. Vinyl will absolutely melt due to this. Hunt around this weekend and see whats giving off the reflection.

 

[911mike]

Keep in mind that the sun's arc is constantly moving so the reflection point today is totally different than it was months ago when the reflection could of happened. You might need to sit and drink beer for a full year to figure this one out. Need any help?