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Vinyl siding underwrap type

OccupantRJ

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Preparing to install vinyl siding on detached workshop in NC where temps range from 14 to 100F during the year, with fairly high humidity. Sheathing is OSB, with no windows, only one garage door, and one man door. Building has a heat pump for heat and AC, and will be temp controlled only part time year round, usually heavier 3 days on weekends. Other times, the workshop will be at ambient temperature. Interior is 1/2" painted plywood, 2 x 4 studs, with r13 faced insulation stapled to the face of the studs. I have my own opinions on this, but am interested to see what others think on it. What material would you use to wrap the structure before installation of the vinyl siding, and WHY?
I prefer comment from people who have at least BUILT or remodeled a building, not from armchair builders, please.
Now before someone jumps in with "housewrap", there are several types available to be considered, but again, WHY? Remember, this is hurricane country. Sometimes the rain is sideways.

This should get interesting.

RJ
 
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danski0224

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No particular reason.

I have noticed different types of housewrap, but the differences seem to be related to the type of material, not necessarily function.

No way I would ever use vinyl siding.

Start at a corner and peel the whole wall. An 8' x 20' wall without windows or doors was stripped of vinyl siding in about 40 seconds.
 

kb2tha

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I am currently building a 1400 sf garage and have a construction background. I just used some Typar. Was quite abit more substantial than the Tyvek which I have also used. The Typar seems to be more substantial with the visible fibers which makes it more tear resistant IMO. It also feels thicker. In terms of actual function, I suspect they will both serve their intended purpose, ie to block air infiltration when properly installed. Am not familiar with any of the other brands being used.
 
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OccupantRJ

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No particular reason.

I have noticed different types of housewrap, but the differences seem to be related to the type of material, not necessarily function.

No way I would ever use vinyl siding.

Start at a corner and peel the whole wall. An 8' x 20' wall without windows or doors was stripped of vinyl siding in about 40 seconds.

You would be surprised at how well vinyl siding does in this area, even with the winds. I have never lost a piece off any of my houses during a storm. That's not even a consideration for me. Lack of needing to paint, and water infiltration is.
 
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gatchel

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I used tyvek also. Why, because it was what was avaiable and it is made by Dupont. I also used Dupont Flex-Wrap and Dupont Straight-Flash. The localsupply house threw in like 8 tubes of Dupont Caulk for "free". I hear that Dupont makes good stuff.
 

Falcon67

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I wrapped mine (and the parts of the house where I've been into the wood siding) with 15 lb roof felt. Cheap, works. It's what my dad and grandad used, still seems to meet the need. I also used HardiPanel on the shop and will use it on the next one. Pre-primed, sprayed with cheap Walmart white house paint and after 12 years it looks great. One long wall faces due west and takes the full brunt of the sun, along with baseball hits, football smacks, tennis balls and various things my grandson and I have thrown at it over the last 10 years. If we were keeping this house, I'd strip it and cover it with Hardi. I never liked the look of vinyl, sorry.
 
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OccupantRJ

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I wrapped mine (and the parts of the house where I've been into the wood siding) with 15 lb roof felt. Cheap, works. It's what my dad and grandad used, still seems to meet the need. I also used HardiPanel on the shop and will use it on the next one. Pre-primed, sprayed with cheap Walmart white house paint and after 12 years it looks great. One long wall faces due west and takes the full brunt of the sun, along with baseball hits, football smacks, tennis balls and various things my grandson and I have thrown at it over the last 10 years. If we were keeping this house, I'd strip it and cover it with Hardi. I never liked the look of vinyl, sorry.

Vinyl happens to be popular here, I hate to paint, and I ain't getting any younger. :)
You are the first person to mention felt paper for sheathing wrap. It actually has a very good reputation as a house wrap. It is one of the options I am considering using. Best I remember, Tcianci is a proponent of building felt versus the newer technology housewraps. Maybe he will chime in on the subject.
 
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Harleyguy

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Port Orange, Florida
I like to use dow 3/4 foam insulation board as an underlayment for vinyl siding. It works well as it is a closed cell type foam. Lets moisture out but not in. Vinyl will condensate on the backside and this will keep mildew and mold from forming. You will notice on the bottom of the siding panels weep holes to let the moisture out. I ran the installation department for Amre inc ( Sears). We would put up $2,000,000 a month in Chicago south region. I hope this helps.
 

nate379

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No problems around here with vinyl for the most part and the last wind storm we had recorded 110mph gusts. If you do have a piece start coming loose, fix it right away or you won't having siding on that wall pretty soon!
 

danski0224

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You would be surprised at how well vinyl siding does in this area, even with the winds. I have never lost a piece off any of my houses during a storm. That's not even a consideration for me. Lack of needing to paint, and water infiltration is.

Vinyl is fine here also. I imagine it would be difficult for a windstorm to exactly duplicate the forces generated when we just peeled the vinyl siding right off.

Lots of houses have it- it is the cheapest siding material per square foot that you can buy.

The details like starter strips, J channels, corners or other accessories add up quickly.

Vinyl fades and becomes brittle. You can get it apart, but a new piece (or even "NOS" that you stashed in the basemet), will never match existing.

Vinyl is brittle when it is cold outside. Impacts will crack the siding. Cold is ~40*F.

Vinyl siding is only "waterproof" if the details and flashings are done properly. Many homes do not have this stuff done right, and rely on the housewrap product to keep the water out. Most homes that I have seen do NOT have cap flashings above windows or doors, as an example.

Vinyl J channel above standard brickmould window or door trim is NOT an acceptable flashing, yet it is done all the time. Then the problem is made 100x worse when the homeowner caulks the brickmould to J channel joint, keeping the water in.

Aluminum dents, but is much harder to peel off by hand. Same matching problems, and it is just about impossible to unzip it and salvage.

"Security" is an illusion in a vinyl home, unless the exterior is sheathed with plywood or OSB. A sharp knife will cut it out (or, just grab and peel), then kick out the fiberboard and drywall.

Cheap vinyl runs about $5 per piece for a double 4" lap pattern.

I got prepainted Hardie for about $15 for an equivalent length and exposure. I do not need J channels and such. It is prepainted with a 15 year warranty. The product itself has a transferable, non pro rated 30 year warranty. It is typically installed using 5/4 x material for corners and window trim, caulk joints where the siding butts the termination. A good polyurethane sealant will have a 30 year life, easily.

Unpainted or primed is less, but have you priced out good paint lately? Raw cement board ***** it up like crazy.

It won't dent, you can't cut it with a knife, much better impact resistance, fireproof, and it holds paint well.

Using shears and a good sawblade, it isn't too difficult to work with. The Diablo Hardie Blade cuts it like a hot knife through butter.

In my opinion, the finished product looks 100% better than vinyl. If I don't like the color later, I can paint Hardie. Try painting vinyl and having it stick. At least aluminum siding can be painted when it fades.



Regarding felt paper as a housewrap...

That's how it used to be done. Nothing wrong with it.

Did a project where I encountered 80 year old felt paper as a housewrap. It was brittle and disintegrated. Maybe the same thing will happen to modern products.
 
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Alphawolf45

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I installed all kinds of siding for 25 years. Problem is that manufacturers make claims and folks buy the materials and guys hang it and unless you go back to repair fire or storm damage you dont ever have a chance to inspect the structure under the exterior covering- so dont ever get to know for sure just what is or isnt the best product... So I dont know answer to your question..Tyvek works, its used everywhere around here and I have seen nothing against it, but is it the best choice, I sure dont know..
.
Incidently I have vinyl siding in the gables of my brick home and it looks real good.. I had choice could have put anything up there but am more than happy with my decision.
 

kbs2244

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Just remember you want a “moisture barrier” under the siding.
The “cold side” of the wall.
Not a “vapor barrier.”
The vapor barrier goes inside.

They used to use tar paper, and it works, but I do like the Tyvek style “non-spun poly olefin.” It doesn’t tear as easy during install.

Performance wise any siding job, of any material, depends on the quality of the workers.

Style wise I never cared for the “plastic house” look of the early vinyl siding.
But they have improved the look over the tears.
 
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OccupantRJ

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After much reading research and my own personal experience, I am using 15 lb felt paper under my siding. If I live long enough, I'll report back on how it's holding up. I chose the thickest version of siding that the supply house had. Since I work alone, the felt has also been easier to install myself this morning, even in a light wind. Aggravating, but doable. I'm popping chalk lines to set the upper edge by, so I have something to shoot for. Back to the house of pain.....
 

sdowney717

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Vinyl siding also develops a ripple where the pieces can even buckle. I have seen this happen on new homes. Sun's heat makes it move a lot. If it cant expand it pops off the wall.
Seen a couple homes that simply let loose several pieces of vinyl siding.
It is just cheap plastic, only good point for me is it wont dent.
Hardi board is really heavy nice solid siding.
 

nate379

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zxczczczxc
The details like starter strips, J channels, corners or other accessories add up quickly.
yes

Vinyl fades and becomes brittle. You can get it apart, but a new piece (or even "NOS" that you stashed in the basement), will never match existing.
depends on quality

Vinyl is brittle when it is cold outside. Impacts will crack the siding. Cold is ~40*F.
if you meant -40* yes, 40* no. My siding was put up in winter when it was 10* and it was fine to work with.

Cheap vinyl runs about $5 per piece for a double 4" lap pattern.
It runs about $300 a square here, your price would be about $85 a sq which I don't think I have EVER seen that cheap, even the super utra cheap stuff.
 

nate379

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Ok I just checked and I goofed on it. It's $300 per box which is actually 2 squares.
 

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srmofo

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Vinyl siding also develops a ripple where the pieces can even buckle. I have seen this happen on new homes. Sun's heat makes it move a lot. If it cant expand it pops off the wall.
Seen a couple homes that simply let loose several pieces of vinyl siding.
It is just cheap plastic, only good point for me is it wont dent.
Hardi board is really heavy nice solid siding.

thats an installation issue.

I keep hearing about these houses that dont have sheathing but I have never personally encountered one. Was it done in newer homes to cut costs? seems like a bad place to cut corners and try to save a few bucks.

OP I have tyvek on my garage, its what the store had in stock. My house has felt, old wood siding, house wrap of some brand, some 1/4 blue foam, vinyl siding. The house was wrapped in vinyl when I bought it. The garage was built last year.

found this for a quick search
http://www.homebuildingremodeling.com/tyvek_why_you_should_use_it_000579.html

edit actually its typar on my garage not tyvek
 
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tcianci

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Well, someone posted, wondering if I would chime in on this subject...Here's my "chime"
I'm still a fan of building felt as opposed to modern housewraps. My gripe is specific to Tyvek. It is the brand of housewrap that I have personally seen building failures with in nearly every instance of opening up a building that was wrapped with it. I spoke to a rep for the Typar product, his literature claimed that Typar was significantly more resistant to water vapor transmission than Tyvek, that's a good thing. Building felt is cheap and it does the job. As I stated in other posts, it wrinkles and it is a PITA to put up in the wind and keep it there. That's where modern housewraps shine, they're strong and they go up fast. These characteristics make it good for the installer, not the building.
Vinyl siding in my opinion should be avoided at all costs. It is also a contributor to water related problems as it is the least weather tight siding material available today. The longevity of your building depends totally on the integrity of your housewrap material, care of installation and good flashing details. You can really soak the backside of a vinyl job with a good rain and windstorm or a good washing with a garden hose.

Vinyl is also a regional thing. Here in the MA area, vinyl is very popular for reside jobs with the expectation that there will be no maintenance or painting involved which is simply not true. Any material on the outside of a building will, over time require, cleaning and repair. While it is obvious that vinyl will not rot, it will crack, support mold and moss growth, fade and frequently buckle.

In other parts of the country, vinyl is the most popular product going. Personally, whether with a new installation or a reside job, it is impossible to achieve or maintain any level of traditional architectural detail with the product. It looks cheap, and the accessories that are sold with it tend to make it clumsy looking. In the MA area, the fiber cement products have pretty much taken first place in new construction work along with traditional cedar siding.

Pre-finished fiber cement siding has great curb appeal, still allows for traditional installation details and looks enough like actual wood products. The quality of the finish and the warranty can't be beat. My oldest fiber cement jobs are about a decade old now with no failures, although if anyone is interested I can post some install details that will greatly enhance the finished project and make the install go easier.
 
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danski0224

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Pre-finished fiber cement siding has great curb appeal, still allows for traditional installation details and looks enough like actual wood products. The quality of the finish and the warranty can't be beat. My oldest fiber cement jobs are about a decade old now with no failures, although if anyone is interested I can post some install details that will greatly enhance the finished project and make the install go easier.

I'm listening
 
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OccupantRJ

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I'm glad I chose to go with the felt paper underlayment. I have had to start and stop on the siding job, and the felt paper being in 36 inch width has enabled me to do almost all the work alone. I put up a couple runs of the tarpaper, then install a few rows of siding over it. I just keep working my way to the top of the wall with both materials. This has kept the exposed amount of felt paper to a minimum of sunlight and moisture exposure, which prevented wrinkling. Down low, I could attach the underlayment by myself, but after going to the upper level of the walls, I got my daughter to help with the felt paper application, to keep it manageable. Kinda hard to be more than one spot at once. She seems to enjoy helping me out on things like this now and then, so we got to spend some quality time together.
 

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