vinyl tile removal

[Motordoctor]

Hey, I'm redoing the kitchen in the house and I'm planning on putting down ceramic tiles. There was some hideous brown wooden tiles that I had to pry up. Left a bunch of black paper residue on top of a old vinyl floor. So I scraped that **** off. My questions are these:

• Should I peel that old vinyl tile off? That stuff is stuck down GOOD.
  Would a Diamabrush get the old tile off the wood subfloor without tearing it up?
  I'm planning on putting down some thinset and screwing wonderboard down through the old tile and into the subfloor. So leaving the old tiles going to work?
  Never put tile down so I'm a virgin at it but I do know this much. Poor prep=not going to last.
  Thanks for the help.

 

[duneslider]

My preference is to remove all old flooring. Typically, there is particle board or cheap thin plywood under vinyl flooring. The vinyl floor isn't the problem but the cheap crappy plywood/particle board is bad to have under tile.

Do you know what is under the vinyl?

 

[stage20]

My preference is to remove all old flooring. Typically, there is particle board or cheap thin plywood under vinyl flooring. The vinyl floor isn't the problem but the cheap crappy plywood/particle board is bad to have under tile.

Do you know what is under the vinyl?

if he is screwing down cement board and its stuck like all hell, there would be no reason to mess with any of it unless it was loose. scrap the top off so to speak and use your best judgement. when things are glued to plywood, sometimes you cannot get to wood.

i recommend using a modified thinset. spread the floor, then lay your cement board over the thinset and screw off every 6". this will take care of any issue 99% of the time.

 

[duneslider]

You should never tile over particle board or crappy thin plywood. Bad practice and leads to issues down the road.

 

[Tim The Tool Man]

If those old tiles are 9" x 9" don't mess with them, they are most likely asbestos. If that is the case and the floor is sound (i.e. not bouncy) then I would use a modified thinset (read expensive) under my cement board. Of course you would screw it down as well...

 

[draglink]

If those old tiles are 9" x 9" don't mess with them, they are most likely asbestos. If that is the case and the floor is sound (i.e. not bouncy) then I would use a modified thinset (read expensive) under my cement board. Of course you would screw it down as well...

^^^^^^ 9x9 tiles stop my flooring jobs quickly

 

[Motordoctor]

This place was built in 1950 so it's possible those are asbestos tiles. I had to take a wall out and that SOB was heavy. It was drywall with metal lath and three coats of plaster. That plaster stuff is abrasive, wore out every sawzall blade I had, Wood with nails, metal,carbide, demo, etc. I made a couple of cuts with a skil saw with a carbide tipped blade and it wore that out too. Here's some pictures, the hole is where the wall was located. You can see a plywood patch on the floor. The previous owners had a rotted out section when the refrigerator probably leaked. They moved the refrigerator over the hole to cover it and we never moved it to look under it when we bought the place. Measured the tiles, they're 12X12 so I guess that's a good thing

 

[Motordoctor]

I guess my next question would be this: what's left of the vinyl tile floor really isn't flat/level. So putting down some thinset and setting the wonderboard into it with screws going to give me a flat surface for the tile on top? Or do I need to put down some underlayment leveling compound? I was thinking that the 7/16" wonderboard would be the one to use, compared to the 1/4" stuff which would probably flex. Price wise, the thinset is half the price of the underlayment compound. At least at the local orange box store.

 

[DC73]

If you didn't have a lot of deviation, you could probably get by with building up the thinset to level the wonderboard.

I watched a DIY show awhile back that used a self leveling compound on a wavy floor. Then they put down a Schluter-Ditra membrane with thinset and then tiled over the Ditra (http://www.homedepot.com/p/Schluter...n-Thick-Uncoupling-Membrane-DITRA5M/100143471). They did not use a backer board.

Supposedly the Ditra "decouples" the tile from the movement in the subfloor and prevents cracks. You might research it and see what you think.

Be careful of the vinyl tile even it is not the dreaded 9x9. At my office building, we discovered that the mastic used to install our vinyl tile was asbestos even though the tile was not. We removed some of it which was a pain because we had to call in remediation experts. When we did the next section, they allowed us to leave the old tile in place and to put new tile over it.

DC

 

[Motordoctor]

That is why I would like to just leave the tile alone, don't need the added expense of getting somebody to dispose of Asbestos. The kitchen floor isn't really that big, a total of 140 sq ft (10X14). Is there a problem with tiling wall to wall? Meaning setting the cabinets/stove/dishwasher on tile? I'm yanking all that out anyway so at the price I'm getting the tile for, it isn't going to be that much more tiling the whole area.
This sound like a good idea? I figured I would put down the thinset, lay the wonderboard on it, check/adjust for level and let the thinset set up before I screw it down so it doesn't try to pull the board into any low spots.

 

[Motordoctor]

I like the sound of that Ditra membrane but not the price. It would be $100 more compared to the wonderboard/screws/thinset. And I would have to splice in a three inch piece 14ft long since it comes in three foot three inch wide rolls.

 

[stage20]

You should never tile over particle board or crappy thin plywood. Bad practice and leads to issues down the road.

This is why you put down cement board. His subfloor can't be crappy thin plywood or the floor would have fallen in by now.

 

[duneslider]

This is why you put down cement board. His subfloor can't be crappy thin plywood or the floor would have fallen in by now.

Guess you got it all figured out, what do I know.

 

[stage20]

Guess you got it all figured out, what do I know.

There are joists and a subfloor underneath all this mess, with cement board set and screwed it shuld be ready to lay tile over. An option would be to drill a 1" or soo hole through the floor to see what's under the vinyl tile and how thick the subfloor really is. Get a gd idea what he is working with then.

 

[DC73]

Is there a problem with tiling wall to wall? Meaning setting the cabinets/stove/dishwasher on tile?

No problem with this approach that I can see and I think it's a better approach. I've seen dishwashers nearly impossible to change out because someone tiled right up to them and didn't leave any room for the dishwasher to come out.

But, I was told not to tile right to the edge of the wall. It's best to leave a small gap about the thickness of a grout line. But, don't grout that edge gap. Use a color matching caulk if this gap will be exposed. Any color caulk will work if the gap is covered by baseboard and/or cabinets. This caulked gap allows the tile floor to expand and contract without causing cracks.

DC

 

[Motordoctor]

Thanks. I measured the floor thickness through the hole left when I took out the wall and it looks like 3/4 plywood over a diagonal wood plank subfloor. Total thickness looks like about 1 1/4" not including the tiles. I was planning on leaving a 1/4" around the perimeter for expansion. Initially I was going to use the thicker wonderboard (7/16) but I think I might use the 1/4" as the tile will be too high compared to the transition from wood floors. Do they make a special thinset to bond with vinyl tiles? Or is the modified thinset the way to go? Thanks again.

 

[duneslider]

Sounds like your subfloor should be great.

You are not putting thinset under the cement board to bond the board to the floor so don't think you have to go crazy with an expensive thinset. That is what the screws are doing. The thinset is filling irregularities in the floor and giving a good support to the backer board so there is no movement in the substrate which is not good for tile. A polymer modified thinset is what CBP calls for with their product. You could use Versabond for both over and under the board. It is a fairly affordable thinset that has a great track record. I would not use a less expensive thinset for setting the tile though.

Here is a link to the install instructions for Wonderboard.
http://www.custombuildingproducts.com/media/59976516/wonderboard-lite-install-guide_wbplb_english.pdf

If you have any questions I would be happy to help answer them.

 

[stage20]

Mapei makes. Thinset that specifically says on the label you can lay over vct. Its rapid set......use it quickly. It dries in 3 hrs. In the florida summers you can grout your tile in 2 hrs. Will be good for setting the board. I wouldn't use it for tile unless you are experienced.

 

[Motordoctor]

At taking a long hard look at it, and NOT wanting to do it twice, I decided to remove the old vinyl tile. After talking to a tile guy and looking at the tile, I'm pretty sure it's not Asbestos. After spending a hour scraping off about two square feet with various floor tile scrapers, I'm really not liking this job. Tried to get my Nephew to do it but listening to the whining wasn't worth the trouble. So here's my questions:
What do you think about just sawing through the existing tile/plywood down to the subfloor and replacing the old with new stuff? That would eliminate have to spend countless hours scraping that old stuff off and having to rent a drum sander from Home Depot to finish getting all the old adhesive off.
It would take about 5 4x8 sheets to replace the entire floor in there. The trick of course will be sawing through the old stuff close to the wall, and prying it up from the subfloor without damaging it. What's your take on that? If I'm putting down a fresh underlayment, is plywood what you would want under 18x18 tiles? Or a combination of wonderboard and plywood? Thanks again for your help.

 

[404]

At taking a long hard look at it, and NOT wanting to do it twice, I decided to remove the old vinyl tile. After talking to a tile guy and looking at the tile, I'm pretty sure it's not Asbestos. After spending a hour scraping off about two square feet with various floor tile scrapers, I'm really not liking this job. Tried to get my Nephew to do it but listening to the whining wasn't worth the trouble. So here's my questions:
What do you think about just sawing through the existing tile/plywood down to the subfloor and replacing the old with new stuff? That would eliminate have to spend countless hours scraping that old stuff off and having to rent a drum sander from Home Depot to finish getting all the old adhesive off.
It would take about 5 4x8 sheets to replace the entire floor in there. The trick of course will be sawing through the old stuff close to the wall, and prying it up from the subfloor without damaging it. What's your take on that? If I'm putting down a fresh underlayment, is plywood what you would want under 18x18 tiles? Or a combination of wonderboard and plywood? Thanks again for your help.

IF you can warm up or heat the tile the black stuff may release.
I have cut out a floor all the way down to the joists. It is a lot of work. It is nice and solid when done. I had diagonal planking like you do and I chose to put in blocking between the joists and all around the perimiter of my cut line to support both the new plywood and the old diagonal that went to other rooms.

If your floor is big tiles you will be real pissed off if one cracks. The Ditra can be found at home depot.

Good luck

 

[duneslider]

Looking at the pictures you posted, I do not think it is an asbestos tile or an adhesive containing asbestos. The adhesive is not black from what I can see. Black cutback adhesive generally had asbestos in it (not guaranteed but likely). Most 12x12 tiles did not have asbestos (not guaranteed but yours don't look like the 12x12's I have seen with asbestos).

A heat gun will certainly aide in removing the tiles quicker and easier. You just warm them up and then using a heavy putty knife you slide the knife under the tile and lift it up. The hardest part with yours is they are probably brittle from age and still won't want to come up in big pieces. It will be significantly easier but will still take some time and effort using that method. No need to get the old adhesive off, it won't cause any problems to the tile installation.

I would always us a chipping hammer and a scraper blade to remove the tile. It goes pretty darn quick. I imagine you can rent one pretty easy at the Home depot tool rental or another tool rental place.

It appears that your plywood is in good shape so it would be a shame to see you tear it out. It is the normal practice to cut it into squares (maybe 2x2) and pry them up. If it was screwed down heavy it still might be a pain to pull up.

The ideal situation would be to pull up the plywood and put a fresh layer down. However, from the few pics you posted the plywood does look to be good and I think if you did use a backerboard screwed down over the vct and plywood you would be just fine. My biggest concern with that method is the fact that not all the area has the VCT on it so there will be a transition with any method you use. So, I would still tend to lean towards you tearing out the VCT at a minimum just so you are starting with a FLAT floor. Not being flat is going to introduce more installation issues that might make the job difficult. The bigger the tile you put down the more flat you want the floor. Bigger tiles are more difficult to set because they won't just flow with the substrate.

Setting tile directly to the plywood is not my recommended install method, it can be done but the guidelines are very specific and a much higher quality thinset is required. There is a lot more margin for error. If height concerns are an issue there are better/other ways to address that.

I also am a big fan of Ditra (and others), I haven't used a backerboard on the floor in over ten years. Backerboards are the less expensive option and when done correctly will still offer a lifetime installation.

You just need to make a decision on the direction you want to go, then we can help you make it last by doing it the right way.

 

[Motordoctor]

OK, I'm going to give the tile removal another shot. I'm making a blade for my slide hammer and use that. Also got a scraper blade for the sawzall. The reason I was removing the old tile was the local tile shop told me that the Ditra wouldn't work over vinyl tile. Possible thinset failure between the Ditra and floor. RE: Ditra. Would you recommend the thinner or thicker version?
What thinset would you recommend for this job? I was talking to the people at Custom Building Products and they recommended these to do the job.

• MegaLite® Crack Prevention Mortar or
• ProLite® Tile & Stone Mortar
• MBP - Multi-Surface Bonding Primer

Of course nobody around here stocks that stuff, so it would all have to be special ordered. The last item, the primer isn't even listed @ Home Depot. So I don't know if they can order it. Sorry for all the dumb questions, I really appreciate the help.

 

[duneslider]

No dumb questions. The dumb ones are the ones not asked.

Customs doesn't like Ditra since Schluter is a competitor so they are recommending you use expensive products and products that are not recommended by Schluter. Customs does not make thinsets compatible with Ditra that you will be able to buy at HD. You will have to go to a supply house to get them and even then I wouldn't recommend that brand as I don't know the quality of what you will need. I have used Versabond above and below the ditra with no failures but it does not meet Schluter's warranty requirements (don't let that bother you though).

I would not recommend using Ditra over the VCT. If you want to use Ditra you really need the VCT gone. Schluter has a very different philosophy about the setting of tile. You will want to read their instructions carefully and make sure you do it correctly and use the correct products. They should have a bunch of youtube videos showing how it is done.

The thicker version is really just to gain some extra height. I use it when I am butting tile up to hardwood and want them flush. The thicker version will generally put the tile install level with 3/4" hardwood flooring.

 

[Motordoctor]

Thanks. I wasn't sure about the different styles. Have to wait until I get the old tile off before I have a height requirement. Should I be using a primer on top of the plywood before I slather the thinset on and put down the Ditra? Will it need to be sanded down to pure wood or will little bits and pieces of adhesive going to make a difference. By the time I'm done with this job (if ever) I should be somewhat proficient at tile. Going to do a countertop and backsplash too. I took all the scrapers to the shop and put a keen edge on them, on the way home now to give that tile hell

 

[duneslider]

Heat will make a big difference in pulling the tile up. Good luck!

Once the tile is up I would use a razor scraper or sharp scraper to just scrape off as much adhesive as you can and then go for it. No need for a primer. Just burn the thinset into the plywood with the flat side of the trowel before you comb it out.

 

[Motordoctor]

So you've been using a modified thinset mortar instead of the non-modified mortar that Schluter recommends? Which exact one do you use? The reason I ask is there seems to be a lot of them, wouldn't want to pick the wrong one. Have to say those tiles are HEAVY. They came in boxes of 8, so that's about 620lbs of tile, sitting on a table in my garage. The fun part was carrying them down the driveway trying not to slip on the ice. Got my workout for the day

 

[duneslider]

I have used Versabond which is a mildly modified thinset. That is not what I normally use. My top preference is Laticrete 272 with 317 second. Laticrete might be harder for you to get though. Some lowes do carry it.

Home Depot does not carry a quality unmodified thinset.

Lowes sometimes carries a good quality unmodified but not all do. Kerabond is what you will get at lowes.

Like I said, it can be difficult to find good dry-set (unmodified) mortars at the box stores. I have used, and know a lot who have also used, versabond over and under ditra. I wouldn't hesitate to use it.

 

[stage20]

If you use a 1/4 x 3/8 trowel under the cement board it will fill the void between the plywood and the tile. Vinyl tile is only 1/8 in thick. I know you want to do a perfect job but you are making more work for yourself.

 

[Motordoctor]

I would love to put down cement board but unfortunately it would create a transition problem from the hardwood floor into the kitchen. You are exactly right when you're saying I'm creating too much extra work. Probably comes from being a commission mechanic most of my life. If you don't get it right the first time, the second and however many times it takes to get it right is free. I tried the quick and dirty method on the basement tile and they came back to bite me in the ***. If I was on a tight time schedule right now it would be a problem but I have a couple of months to get this done. Nice to have two kitchens in one house After the floor I get to redo the rest of the kitchen, new cabinets/countertop/dishwasher/sink/lights/etc. I was really hoping the floor wouldn't be too much of a pain but I would really hate to do it twice. That's why I'm asking all the questions I can think of so when it comes time to start slinging thinset I have all the bases covered. I'm just hoping when it's done, it doesn't look like a blind monkey did it

 

[stage20]

have you looked into hardibacker? it comes in 1/4 thickness.i do work for a builder that uses it on his subfloors. ive been doing his work for 10 years and never had a cracked tile or split grout.

 

[Motordoctor]

More questions:
From what I'm seeing cruising the mis-information highway, it looks like it will take a modified thinset to bond the Ditra to the plywood and then an unmodified to bond the tile to the Ditra? The propaganda that I'm reading about the 272 and 317 say to bond it to plywood you have to add a modifier? So I guess you might as well just use a modified and save a bunch of money. Any idea how much of the 272 or 317 I will need to do 140 sq ft (top side of Ditra)? I'm assuming that the Ditra really ***** up the thinset.

When you set tile in a small room (10X14) should the rows be offset (grout lines) or should all the grout lines match up? I asked the wife what she preferred and she said the offset one looked "too busy". But if that creates a problem, I'm all for doing it the right way. I was reading that these tiles tend to vary in size so even grout lines will be a problem. I was thinking the offset layout might mask that a little.
How much working time do you have once you mix the thinset? It's cold and low humidity here now. In the kitchen it's probably about 55~60 since I have the heater vent blocked off.

 

[Motordoctor]

Putting down the 1/4" wonderboard with the thinset below and above it would add how much to the overall height? I know the thinset is going to add some but I don't know how much it will add. What is an acceptable height difference on a transition from a wood floor to the kitchen tile? If I stick the tiles down on the existing subfloor (plywood), it will be the same as what was there previously. Anything I add to the party will raise the height. One of the reasons the Ditra was calling to me, they say it only adds an 1/8". Thanks for putting up with my endless questions.

 

[DC73]

Although there are a lot of ways to get this done, having a fairly smooth transition between rooms is important, especially if it could be a trip hazard. I think the track you were on in post #29 is the right one. Loose the vinyl tile, prep the floor as needed and use the Ditra. If you could remove the plywood like you suggested and get down to the subfloor, you could probably use the right mix of products to get back to the height you really want the floor to be.

Good luck with this.

DC

 

[duneslider]

I usually used Laticrete 253 to bond the ditra to the subfloor. Like I mentioned, if you don't have easy access to the quality dry-set mortars then I would just use Versabond top and bottom. The biggest issue with using a modified over the top of the ditra is dry time. Modified thinsets can take a really long time to dry if they are set over ditra. Versabond doesn't seem to have this problem from my experience. If you think you have access to other brands of thinset let me know and I can help you make a good selection.

I usually planned on 1 50lb bag for 100-150 feet for under the ditra. Make sure you use the specified trowel size. 1/4x3/16 V-notch. You will mix the thinset fairly loose, when troweled it will barely hold the notch without slumping down. If it is too dry the fibers on the bottom of the ditra won't be saturated.

For over the ditra plan on about 1 50lb bag for ever 40-50 feet. You will need at least a 1/4 x 3/8 square notch trowel for the tile. You will want to use the flat side of the trowel to press the thinset into the squares, then use the notch to spread the thinset over the top (best to trowel all the same direction under a tile), then with the flat side burn the thinset into the back of the tile, then set the tile giving it a wiggle back and forth perpendicular to the notches of the thinset. If you are having trouble getting the tiles level next to each other you might need a bigger notch trowel.

Pattern is up to you. Running bond (offset/brick lay) is nice and I don't think it would be too busy but that is a personal call. However, if the wife doesn't like it don't do it! Have you measured a few of the tiles? Usually only really cheap tiles will be so off that you have issues. Measure a bunch up and see what the variation is. You might want to look at using 3/16" grout joints with an 18 by 18. That size joint should look nice.

Acceptable transition is up to you. I prefer tile same level as adjacent hardwood or a little lower than the wood. I personally don't like the tile higher than the wood. In my house the tile in the bathrooms is 1/8-1/4 lower than the wood and in the entry it is flush with the wood. What will the transition be like going over your plywood where it meets the hardwood?

If you want good info on the web, or think I am full of it, check out John Bridge Forum. It will set you right. I used to spend a significant amount of time there helping DIY'ers. There are a lot of amazing pros there who are willing to help.

 

[stage20]

There are several types of wood trnsitins to smooth the entry waay. If you can't find what you like. Dedicated wood installer or trim carpenter could make a ccustom piece for your application
Typical wood transition is 30 to 60 bucks. Custom will be 150 or higher but you are paying for someones time. At the end of the day it would be worth it to me to pay for what I wanted.

 

[Motordoctor]

Thanks on the tips. I ran across the John Bridge forum last night. Probably would have saved you guys a lot of typing if I had seen that earlier . Been searching locally for the thinset you recommended. Nobody has it. You can order it online, it's the usual bait and switch scam. They say it's $14.99 a bag but when you check the shipping, it's $43/bag to ship. I did find a local source for this stuff Ditra-Set™ Thin-set Cement Mortar
http://www.johnbridge.com/product-reviews/ditra-set-mortar/
The local store emailed me back and said it was $17/bag. As long as they don't charge me a handling fee of $40/bag, that's fine by me

 

[duneslider]

Ditra-set is a fantastic thinset and I would put it right at the same level as laticrete 272. There was a local supplier for me at one time and when they closed their doors in 2008 I bought their last pallet of ditra-set they had.

17 a bag is a good price for it. I am pretty sure I pay more than that for 272.

Ditra-set also acts as a medium bed thinset. That doesn't mean a lot to you but just know that is a good thing for you setting 18" tile.

 

[Motordoctor]

Hey any suggestions on getting the black felt off that's under the tiles?
Looks like a layer of vinyl, then a gray paper followed by the black felt stuck down to the plywood. I'm using a heat gun and a scraper to get the tile/gray paper up but it just slides over the felt. I tried a rasp type drywall file on it and it hardly touched it.

 

[duneslider]

This doesn't sound like vct at all. Razor scraper or razor floor scraper. Home depot should have one in the flooring section. Sounds like vinyl cushioned tiles and they would have not been a good idea under tile.

Most of those glues are water soluable. Try a wet towel played on an area for a bit and see if the felt stuff comes up easier. Might work, or help loosen the adhesive.

 

[Motordoctor]

Here's some pictures of it so far.
The first picture is how much my nephew managed to get off in an hour by himself. Which is why I'm not having him do that anymore. Now he gets to hold the heat gun.
Second picture is how much both of us working for an hour got off.
Third picture is the tools I'm using
Fourth and fifth are close ups of the tiles we're removing. Getting the top layer off isn't too bad, the shovel does that quite nicely. It's that layer of gray paper and the felt underneath that's the pain. You have to get the paper smoking hot with the heatgun before it will come up, and even then it's in slivers. You tile guys must have knees and backs of steel. Mine is singing the blues after an hour.