MrMark
Well-known member
I HAVE NO BEEF OTHER THAN HIS BS, which starts in the video rant and continues on here. . .
Waekon patent infringement on Loadpro
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Dan_Sullivan
Active member
The Waekon Volt-Pro doesn't have an associated patent. The packaging and tool are not marked. The President Bob Bauman stated emphatically at the meeting that he would have my patent invalidated. They contend - to quote the engineer George Hart - "you can't patent a load tester."
To which I replied - "I did..."
Their position is that I shouldn't have the patent in the first place. They were unconcerned about my claims. They have no reason to file a patent if they feel this way. This places them in peril of treble damages for flagrant infringement, should I successfully prove it. Since I understand all of the basic concepts MrMark is referencing, I'm not concerned about that.
I'm not concerned because either way it works out for me.
Dan_Sullivan
Active member
I actually have an M.S. in Education. I don't have horns, but I do "S". However, my "S" don't stink.
It's deadly.
Dan_Sullivan
Active member
The only person ranting is you. The LOADpro does one thing - one! It loads the circuit so the open circuit voltage reading that doesn't work, a voltage drop without the need to predict a fault. The ghost and zero voltage readings make the 3 wire faults instantly visible.
And since there's no loadable voltage on an ECM input, we don't test them. That's why it says "Not for ECM inputs."
The word "safe" is not in that instruction - anywhere.
You know, Sullivan's Snake Oil cures all that ails you. If you're one of those poor souls who can't sleep at night, and spends all your lonely hours pecking away at a keyboard, my Snake Oil can solve that problem. Take a swig, and it even scares away that rascally green-eyed monster.
Sullivan's Snake Oil - the preferred Snake Oil of prigs the World over.
FiendFX
Well-known member
Ahh, thanks for the clarification. That makes sense.
Dan_Sullivan
Active member
No sweat. I'm enjoying myself. I teach - that's it. I love it. I love helping folks. Got a great email from a new Tech Instructor in Michigan this morning that both thrilled me and humbled me. Said the concept of teaching Ohm's Law I espouse helped him get through his first semester teaching electrical.
That's what it's all about. If you learn everything I know - we have to be considered equals. Given that goal, it's hard to justify feeling superior.
MrMark
Well-known member
You've got to be kidding me with this little play you are pulling here.
There's no loadable voltage, what when the sensor is disconnected and that return wire is just hanging? Well, yeah, that's true - is that how you are trying to get around this?
MrMark
Well-known member
That post you referenced is totally wrong, the second half that is.
signcrafter
Well-known member
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- May 9, 2012
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Dan, can you list some places where the loadpro shouldn't be used? I'm fairly new to electrical diagnostics. Are all sensors ECM inputs? Thanks.
Dan_Sullivan
Active member
What the hell am I trying to get around. You do realize I'm saying the tool is NOT for inputs, right? It's not like I'm trying to make it do more than it does - I'm doing the opposite. I'm in an argument with someone who doesn't understand I'm telling you is does less than you want it to.
This is nuts. Read the manual. I wrote - uh - let's see - in 2002? It has NOT changed, other than the cover and the tool name.
Some people have made very astute observations and have seemed to have picked up on the simplicity of the tool - something you lampoon. This makes no sense. If you're too intelligent to understand the elegance of this SMALL change to meter reading, then I'll admit right now I'm outclassed.
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richfinn
Well-known member
Dan_Sullivan
Active member
Use on any analog load wire, can be used on PWM, sensor drivers and any bare wire isolated at both ends and energized. As a very poor inventor, I couldn't afford to field test it on every type of ECM and every type of input - hence the, "Not for use on ECM inputs".
That's it, as long as you stay within the voltage guidelines.
MrMark
Well-known member
Every sensor is an input. You can't use it to replace the load of any sensor safely. Will you finally please just admit this and stop dancing around it, because you have confused just about every person on this thread into thinking they can plug it in to check a sensor's wiring.
That is why the Voltpro does not even allow load testing on 5V reference circuits.
edit: WOW the admission finally comes! Disconnect the wire at both ends. Case dismissed. Why couldn't you have just stated this 32 pages ago and prevented all the BS and all the people you misled.
You've got poor techs that have no idea what you are talking about congratulating you and other posts that are totally wrong.
We have finally achieved clarity but look what it took! And, it was questioned why I posted.
That is why the Voltpro does not even allow load testing on 5V reference circuits.
edit: WOW the admission finally comes! Disconnect the wire at both ends. Case dismissed. Why couldn't you have just stated this 32 pages ago and prevented all the BS and all the people you misled.
You've got poor techs that have no idea what you are talking about congratulating you and other posts that are totally wrong.
We have finally achieved clarity but look what it took! And, it was questioned why I posted.
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richfinn
Well-known member
I appreciate the re-re-iteration but what you're saying is not completely clear. Loadable voltage - what's that? If a voltage signal goes into an A/D converter, that's considered data and the wire going back to the sensor can't possibly have an unwanted high resistance? Is that it? Even if high resistance in that wire can bias the signal and cause the ECM to set a code? I don't understand.
Consider this circuit: power wire from battery to solenoid, ground wire from solenoid to transistor inside ECM. The ECM applies current to the transistor base, causing it to switch on, drawing current through the solenoid coil, through the transistor inside the ECM, to ground, and energizing the solenoid.
With the transistor off both sides of the solenoid are at battery voltage. With the transistor on, the power wire is at battery voltage (almost) and the ground wire at the ECM input pin is at 100 mV or whatever the voltage drop across the transistor is. The ECM samples that voltage and sets a code if it's too high.
Suppose the transistor is commanded on, and the solenoid doesn't energize? How do you use the Loadpro leads to check for high resistance on the ground side of the solenoid? Wouldn't you unplug the solenoid connector, put the red lead on the power terminal and the black lead on the ground terminal, and command the transistor on? Isn't the wire to the ECM an input? There are only inputs and outputs, if it's not an output isn't it an input?
Forget about the whole computer-safe argument. The solenoid is using more than 0.5 amp so it's safe. I'm just wondering if you consider the solenoid ground wire to be off-limits for load testing - a Loadpro Jedi would NOT load test that part of the circuit, because it's an ECM input? Or is it not an ECM input because there's a load in the circuit? Sensors are not loads even though they have a voltage drop across them? All this doesn't add up.
The tool is safe on everything except ECM inputs, and an ECM input is defined as anything the tool's not safe on. An ECM input is any circuit you would know not to load test. ECM voltage inputs are data, since the voltage is not loadable. The room is starting to spin.
sdguy55
Well-known member
Hey dan just a quick question
I mostly work on CAT motors and the injectors are supplied voltage from the ECM to fire. Now would the Loadpro be able to test that because wouldnt that be a voltage supplied from the ECM?
And if anyone is curious i THINK the way that works is that the ECM gets system voltage and then has a series of transistors (i think thats right) to up the voltage to 100 volts (i think).
I mostly work on CAT motors and the injectors are supplied voltage from the ECM to fire. Now would the Loadpro be able to test that because wouldnt that be a voltage supplied from the ECM?
And if anyone is curious i THINK the way that works is that the ECM gets system voltage and then has a series of transistors (i think thats right) to up the voltage to 100 volts (i think).
FiendFX
Well-known member
I think everyone has their own point of view in which has caused some misunderstandings.
richfinn
Well-known member
Your not clear at all, you own neither a Volt-Pro or a Load-Pro and yet you feel its OK to try and discredit Dan who designed it, Myself and Stick who have both stated that its fine to test 5V ECM refs by loading them with 25 ohms.
You don,t like the Load-Pro (yet you talk about making your own)
You sing the praises of the Volt-Pro (yet you have never even seen one)
Then you have the nerve to call people Bullshitters.
MrMark
Well-known member
I would like a VoltPro but do not have one. I am perfectly capable of using a resistor to do a voltage drop, thus I do not need a LoadPro.
I disagree with both you and Stick on testing 5V references without knowing the load you are replacing matches the load you are inserting. You are both wrong to be so cavalier if that is what you are doing. Even Sullivan does not endorse what you have done.
The VoltPro is an elegant piece of engineering from my study of its specs and its methods of operation; the LoadPro is not as it is a resistor. If I do not own it, I cannot comment on its perceived value or elegance without being a bullshitter, is that how it works? I will monitor your posts from now on to hold you to this new rule of anti-bullshitting.
If you think this is bullshitting I suggest you look in the mirror with some of your posts that were dead wrong and look at many of Sullivan's posts that fostered tremendous confusion regarding ECM testing.
The answers have finally come but it took 13 pages of prodding of Sullivan and his BS to get to the bottom of it.
Who is the bullshitter here?
I disagree with both you and Stick on testing 5V references without knowing the load you are replacing matches the load you are inserting. You are both wrong to be so cavalier if that is what you are doing. Even Sullivan does not endorse what you have done.
The VoltPro is an elegant piece of engineering from my study of its specs and its methods of operation; the LoadPro is not as it is a resistor. If I do not own it, I cannot comment on its perceived value or elegance without being a bullshitter, is that how it works? I will monitor your posts from now on to hold you to this new rule of anti-bullshitting.
If you think this is bullshitting I suggest you look in the mirror with some of your posts that were dead wrong and look at many of Sullivan's posts that fostered tremendous confusion regarding ECM testing.
The answers have finally come but it took 13 pages of prodding of Sullivan and his BS to get to the bottom of it.
Who is the bullshitter here?
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Dan_Sullivan
Active member
Is there a little dancing icon thingy for "Dufus"?
The instructions in the manual make it patently clear that the tool is a substitute load, not a substitute sensor. On CAT PWM sensors terminal A is B+, terminal b is B-, and C is signal. We can test A and B (5v or 8V) without harm or concern.
In the case of a 2 wire sender, the supply wire to the sender is a voltage supply (á la fuel level), the sender manipulates the voltage to a set value, and sends the value back to the ECM.
We test twisted pairs on the entire vehicle by connecting the looms together with connectors, apply voltage on one leg, and read loaded voltage out of the other leg.
If anyone can make sense of what this guy is asking/saying/ranting/belching, please let me know.
richfinn
Well-known member
Jesus, I,m losing the will to live.
Why would you want to spend all that time posting when you dont have either of the tools being discussed or any practical experience of using them.
For all you know the Volt-Pro might well be a total piece of ****.
Dan actually had one in his hand during the video.
You have never even seen one FFS.
MrMark
Well-known member
You really are a piece of work Sullivan. It's not computer safe, we get it and you admit it. Although you didn't at first and danced a jig and are still trying to confuse the poor souls without a lot of knowledge on all of this.
What an unbelievable thread. Sullivan I pity your lawyer or anyone ever trying to get a straight story out of you. The jury will not like that, I can assure you.
What an unbelievable thread. Sullivan I pity your lawyer or anyone ever trying to get a straight story out of you. The jury will not like that, I can assure you.
Steinmetz
Well-known member
I wouldn't doubt for a minute that they suggested possible invalidation. I've invalidated more than a few patents through reexamination myself.
Dan_Sullivan
Active member
ISuppose the transistor is commanded on, and the solenoid doesn't energize? How do you use the Loadpro leads to check for high resistance on the ground side of the solenoid? Wouldn't you unplug the solenoid connector, put the red lead on the power terminal and the black lead on the ground terminal, and command the transistor on? Isn't the wire to the ECM an input? There are only inputs and outputs, if it's not an output isn't it an input?
Not by my standards. In the case of either analog or digital solenoids, the ECMs I'm used to have SOL RETURN, which is simply ground. It's not an input. Inputs are data. Even switched digital ground inputs are simply reference grounds.
With respect, I think you're over-thinking it. The transistor is a switch, and the solenoid either operates on source V or a pulsed average voltage. You're correct about lead placement.
A load - by my definition - is something that turns voltage into something else. A loadable wire is any wire that supplies voltage. A ground is a ground.
You guys really seem to be hung up on the 40mA/V load...
If it didn't work, we wouldn't have built it this way.
CAT ECMs are rated to withstand 80V for 20 minutes on ANY pin. These boxes are not the boxes of earlier days. Engineers have hardened them pretty effectively.
MrMark
Well-known member
What the hell is wrong with you. What is your motive here? Because you bought this resistor tool? You need to justify it to yourself? WTH. What could it possible matter whether I have the VoltPro? What did you think I worked for Waekon and was trying to promote the tool? This is not about flippin tools, it is about honest and tech and understanding testing and circuits. This isn't about any tools.
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nehog
Well-known member
You do know that having a patent issued is only a small part of the battle, right? Many patents are declared invalid in part or whole once they are challenged in patent court. I do hope your patent attorney did explain that to you when you filed for patent protection... He did, right?
Your attorney is comfortable with that I hope?
So it goes to court, your patent is declared invalid, how do you win?
BTW, I'm not saying your patent is invalid--the courts may well uphold it and you may win, but bottom line is that two things are paramount:
1. The side with the most money has a substantial advantage, and...
2. Many patents don't hold up in court because the patent office finds it easier to grant a patent than to actually make sure that the invention is patentable.
Dan_Sullivan
Active member
You must be a pretty tiny guy Mark, because I've never noticed you living in the crack of my *** the past 13 years soaking up all the BS I've been excreting.
Brownsfan
Well-known member
I got lost after page 3. I now have both tools discussed. I have only used the Volt Pro so far and really like it and it has been well worth the money. I just bought the Load pro today. The reason. I use my meter the most and this makes sense to have. Once I use it then I can form an opinion on it and compare. As I see it now they are two different tools that do one thing the same(load circuits). The volt pro does more than that. I basically see the Load Pro as a set of test leads for my meter that gives me a quick way to test a voltage drop. Man all this arguing back and forth is getting old and really serves no purpose. The most vocal of all is not even in the field nor does he own either tool in question so I really have no idea why it has gone this far. Some one mentioned earlier that they are a diagnostic tech and fix aftermarket installer hack jobs all the time. Not all are hacks. Some even hold the same certifications you do. Not only do I install remote starts and other electronics I also troubleshoot electrical systems as well and also have my ase a6. I just get defensive when mechanics call out guys like me and always blame us without even troubleshooting the issue. That's why I expanded my knowlage to the entire electrical system instead of just the accessory part of it. Sorry for the rant. Now back to your regularly scheduled bickering.
Dan_Sullivan
Active member
I tried to send you a private msg to explain. I don't feel compelled to share much detail amid so many irrational critics. There is method to my madness, but your experience should allow you to appreciate that if I don't defend it, then I essentially invalidate it myself.
What are my choices?
sdguy55
Well-known member
This thread is like a poster child for trolls.
richfinn
Well-known member
I,m going to leave it there Mark. I don,t really know what else to say to you except Load-Pro is a good product that SnapOn now carry, and it works really well if you troubleshoot engine management problems/wiring faults as part of your job.
I cant comment about the Volt-Pro as I have never seen one.
ourkid2000
Well-known member
I think MrMark and Elroy could be the same person. Never seen a thread like this before....man o man.
MrMark
Well-known member
I take this as a compliment of the highest order. Old Elroy (may his banned soul rest in peace) would have had no tolerance for this Sullivan. Old Elroy could sniff out a BS'er with the best of em. He had no tolerance for that Holestrain character that may be a close relative down South to Nifong and Sullivan. I really liked that about Elroy.
Dan_Sullivan
Active member
My dad told me I was the kind of person people either loved or hated - there is no in-between.
I'm used to this. I'm sure this character's experience teaching over 4000 techs electrical diagnostics over the past 16 years - like mine - is what validates his comments. His total of 25 years teaching electricity, and his 30 years of field maintenance - like mine - certainly lend credence to his input. His 7 US and 8 EU patents - like mine - make him more than qualified to weigh in on my patent concerns. And the 13 years - like mine - that's he's spent chasing a dream and successfully bringing a product to market (with 3 major OEM part numbers) - like mine - are hugely impressive.
I'm more than certain that he - like me - is completely uninterested in the ramblings of a pseudo-intellectual charlatan on a public web forum.
I'm sure he - like me - has a far greater sense of self-worth and dignity to ever let such a rube affect his life, in any way other than to provide a hearty guffaw or a modest chuckle.
I'm sure that he - like me - knows how to recognize a loser, with manboobs, who ***** *****, while selling Snake Oil.
I'll post the comparison video tomorrow, and will await the commentary - all appreciated. If anyone has a serious electrical question you feel I may be able to help with please feel free to ask.
Later.
GeneralDisorder
Well-known member
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- Sep 20, 2012
- Messages
- 306
Mr. Mark:
It's only YOU in this thread that is hung up on a small detail that in the real world isn't a problem. If you were a pro (you don't consider yourself one and that's really the only requirement needed on an internet tool forum) then you would have had enough experience with ECU's to understand that Dan's device isn't going to hurt one.
The test being performed is momentary and the load is adequate to prevent damage to ECU components. The transistors that switch on/off such things as solenoids are capable of handling the current for the press and release of the LOADpro's momentary push-button. It just isn't going to hurt anything. I have built ECU's from scratch and I can tell you that this simply isn't an issue in the real world. You can arm-chair theorize all you want about what might happen and how it could damage something but only a complete idiot of an engineer would design an ECU that couldn't survive a full reference voltage hit on any pin that's going to be an input from a powered sensor. The potential for an internal short inside the sensor (zero resistance) is always a state that is considered in ECU design.
Your question is only valid on a theoretical level (yes it's possible to damage an improperly designed circuit inside an ECU by inserting a load that's too small - it just doesn't occur in the wild. But you can produce it in a lab if you wanted to) and it's clear that it stems from a lack of understanding of contemporary design philosophy.
Again - IN THE REAL WORLD, not in Mark's brain, this doesn't happen.
GD
It's only YOU in this thread that is hung up on a small detail that in the real world isn't a problem. If you were a pro (you don't consider yourself one and that's really the only requirement needed on an internet tool forum) then you would have had enough experience with ECU's to understand that Dan's device isn't going to hurt one.
The test being performed is momentary and the load is adequate to prevent damage to ECU components. The transistors that switch on/off such things as solenoids are capable of handling the current for the press and release of the LOADpro's momentary push-button. It just isn't going to hurt anything. I have built ECU's from scratch and I can tell you that this simply isn't an issue in the real world. You can arm-chair theorize all you want about what might happen and how it could damage something but only a complete idiot of an engineer would design an ECU that couldn't survive a full reference voltage hit on any pin that's going to be an input from a powered sensor. The potential for an internal short inside the sensor (zero resistance) is always a state that is considered in ECU design.
Your question is only valid on a theoretical level (yes it's possible to damage an improperly designed circuit inside an ECU by inserting a load that's too small - it just doesn't occur in the wild. But you can produce it in a lab if you wanted to) and it's clear that it stems from a lack of understanding of contemporary design philosophy.
Again - IN THE REAL WORLD, not in Mark's brain, this doesn't happen.
GD
robe5000
Well-known member
Ooooooooh in yo face MrsMark
Brownsfan
Well-known member
Exactly. Now please can the bickering stop? I am willing to bet not one ECU/BCM/ECM/GEM etc. has been damaged by the load pro. Why because most pros are smart enough to not do it. Snap On has thought this tool is good enough for the BluePoint name and has putit on the trucks. It is this months hot tools. They would not have anything to do with this tools if it was dangerous or not valuable to its customers. I also hope Dan sticks around because he could be a valuable asset to the forum and can help many people with his knowledge.After all is that not what this forum is all about?
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MrMark
Well-known member
My comments stand on their own Sullivan. My comments rise and fall on their own merits as do yours.
I do not need to regale anyone with experience or education (and I note you have none of relevance perhaps a gaping hole in your resume and a source of your inferiority complex that requires you to post about all your trials and tribulations) and have found throughout life that those that have to resort to telling people about how long they have been doing something and how experienced they are are usually full of it.
Again, I can not take credit for the tags.
I do not need to regale anyone with experience or education (and I note you have none of relevance perhaps a gaping hole in your resume and a source of your inferiority complex that requires you to post about all your trials and tribulations) and have found throughout life that those that have to resort to telling people about how long they have been doing something and how experienced they are are usually full of it.
Again, I can not take credit for the tags.
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