wall receptacle replacement question/help

[mjeff87]

Guys, be gentle with me.....I rarely venture into electrical things but I'm trying to do what I thought would be a simple little job and need help.

I'm trying to replace a GFCI outlet with a (non-GFCI) outlet with USB ports in it. Problem I have is all the USB-outlets I find only have the standard 2 screws on the back (plus a ground screw). The GFCI circut is daisy-chained and has 4 wires/screws, line and load side. I've replaced those types before with the same type without an issue, but I have no idea how to wire up the USB outlet. Do those outlets come in the 4 screw version and I just can't find one, or do you do some wiring magic to make them work?

 

[engineer2]

A GCFI and the downstream ones are there because of a code and safety requirement. I wouldn't remove it or make the downstream ones non-GFCI. Where are these located? There are fixes, but they are more work.

 

[californiaHank]

I have never seen an outlet without two terminals or holes for each of two hot and neutral wires. It wouldn't make sense - a _lot_ of outlets are installed as part of a daisy chain.

That said, I strongly agree that usually it's a bad idea to replace a GFCI outlet with a non-GFCI one unless you're planning to upgrade the breaker in the panel that feeds it to a GCFI breaker.

 

[MoonRise]

Existing GFCI outlet?

Replace it with a GFCI outlet.

(otherwise, to maintain GFCI protection for that outlet AND the electrically downstream outlets you would have to somehow put in GFCI protection via some other method such as putting in a GFCI circuit breaker for that circuit)

Just want/need some USB charging ports where the current outlet is located?

 

[dave*99]

First as others have said if you have a GFCI it’s there for a reason and should stay. Or go to the service panel and put a GFCI breaker on that circuit. Then you can safely remove the GFCI receptacle.

As for the USB receptacle, I just used some Leviton USB types. There was a single line screw and a single neutral screw. But they were set up to be double tapped. This means 2 straight wires under each screw head. An appropriate clip is under the screw head to capture 2 straight wires.

 

[Bert_]

You probably need to have GFCI protection. Either put your USB outlet elsewhere or use a GFCI breaker.

Since you have more wires than screws just pigtail the wires. I hardly ever Daisy chain through the outlet.

 

[u2slow]

You could cut in a 2-gang box and have room for the GFCI and USB.

As a rule, we don't daisy-chain through any devices up here (except GFCI load-side). Everything gets a pigtail splice.

 

[mjeff87]

Thanks guys. To clarify, there are 4 outlets on this circuit, all of the are around my kitchen counter and each one of them is GFCI. They're all on the same breaker. This one outlet just happens to be the one most convenient to plug up all of our cell phones/iPads/tablets/etc that charge off of a USB cable. I've been using a plug-in type USB port into the existing outlet which works ok, I just thought I could replace the outlet with one that has built-in USB ports to clean things up and simplify. I've already figured out that you can't get a USB type outlet that is GFCI protected, but figured since the other three outlets on the circuit are GFCI, it would still be protected.

 

[The Cobbler]

your kitchen counter outlets are probably each on a separate circuit? doubt they are all on one circuit. and to remove a GFCI outlet near a water source is not a good idea.

 

[Bert_]

Thanks guys. To clarify, there are 4 outlets on this circuit, all of the are around my kitchen counter and each one of them is GFCI. They're all on the same breaker. This one outlet just happens to be the one most convenient to plug up all of our cell phones/iPads/tablets/etc that charge off of a USB cable. I've been using a plug-in type USB port into the existing outlet which works ok, I just thought I could replace the outlet with one that has built-in USB ports to clean things up and simplify. I've already figured out that you can't get a USB type outlet that is GFCI protected, but figured since the other three outlets on the circuit are GFCI, it would still be protected.

if the outlet you want to change is not the first outlet on the circuit then you will be fine. If it is the first outlet on the circuit than it needs to be a GFCI. Any of the others can be changed.

 

[BD1]

Years ago bathrooms and outdoor outlets were the only required location for GFI's.
Garages and kitchen were not required to have them.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[samss]

? for the electricians
Could the breaker be changed to a GFCI to allow for the USB outlet?

 

[dave*99]

Thanks guys. To clarify, there are 4 outlets on this circuit, all of the are around my kitchen counter and each one of them is GFCI. They're all on the same breaker. This one outlet just happens to be the one most convenient to plug up all of our cell phones/iPads/tablets/etc that charge off of a USB cable. I've been using a plug-in type USB port into the existing outlet which works ok, I just thought I could replace the outlet with one that has built-in USB ports to clean things up and simplify. I've already figured out that you can't get a USB type outlet that is GFCI protected, but figured since the other three outlets on the circuit are GFCI, it would still be protected.

In post #1 you said the 4 GFCI were daisy chained. And you mentioned the screws for the load terminals. Is anything connected to the load terminals?

In this post you said the 4 GFCI are on the same breaker. So that implies they are daisy chained and that would likely be done by pigtail connections and only connected to the line terminals. Is this the case?

And finally it you can give up the 120V receptacle functionality of the receptacle in question and it does not protect a downstream receptacle then you can swap in a USB only device. Of course you might violate the minimum spacing requirements for counter top receptacles. But it would be a safe install.

 

[mjeff87]

Yes, they are all controlled by one breaker in the panel. Wires on both line and load, 4 separate ones, plus a ground.

It's not a wet location, but it is a counter top. As I understand, code requires all of them to be GFI's (house build date was 2009).

 

[Innovate1]

Push the test button on the outlet to be replaced. Do all the outlets on the circuit go dead? If so it's the first in the string and it's probably a code issue to replace it with a non-gfci outlet unless you change to a GFCI breaker.
If some of the other 3 outlets are still on then it isn't the first and can be fed from the load side of an upstream gfci. You can check the upstream outlet is wired that way by resetting the outlet to be replaced and pushing the test button on the outlets the still had power in the test above. If it goes off you are fine with just putting in the USB outlet as it goes off when at least one of the gfci test buttons is pressed. If not you need to rewire the upstream gfci outlet so incoming power is to the line terminals and outgoing wires are hooked to load terminals.

 

[dave*99]

Yes, they are all controlled by one breaker in the panel. Wires on both line and load, 4 separate ones, plus a ground.

It's not a wet location, but it is a counter top. As I understand, code requires all of them to be GFI's (house build date was 2009).

So do you have a single GFCI receptacle fed from the breaker and then 3 more receptacles tied to the load side of that GFCI receptacle? If so they would be called GFCI Protected receptacles. Because they are protected by an upstream GFCI.

There is a path to installing your USB but the details are important if it is to be done safely.

 

[Zeke]

Yes, they are all controlled by one breaker in the panel. Wires on both line and load, 4 separate ones, plus a ground.

It's not a wet location, but it is a counter top. As I understand, code requires all of them to be GFI's (house build date was 2009).

Then you only need one GFCI at the head of the chain to protect all receptacles serving countertops. If there is another circuit present serving a countertop, then that circuit needs GFCI protection. This includes recpt's on the sides of cabinets.

The simple answer to the problem, disregarding the GFCI issues, is to use a pigtail at the location of the new non-GFCI receptacle.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Years ago bathrooms and outdoor outlets were the only required location for GFI's.
Garages and kitchen were not required to have them.

Garages and kitchens (near the sink) have required GFCI outlets for over 20 years !

 

[u2slow]

Garages and kitchens (near the sink) have required GFCI outlets for over 20 years !

And where is the enforcement action to replace the non-GFCI split receptacles all the rest of the 20+yo homes have in their kitchens?

 

[Zeke]

And where is the enforcement action to replace the non-GFCI split receptacles all the rest of the 20+yo homes have in their kitchens?

You know that the NEC is grandfathered until you touch anything. Then you do upgrade. I'm sure some skate the issue, but if you carry a license, you need to.

That's how I roll.

 

[engineer2]

And where is the enforcement action to replace the non-GFCI split receptacles all the rest of the 20+yo homes have in their kitchens?

Market forces around here when you try to sell your home. When we sold my parents' house the buyer demanded an upgrade to dual 20A GFCI kitchen outlets done by a licensed electrician before they would close. Thankfully with conduit and an IBEW relative the upgrade was $50 in parts and 12-pack of beer. In other parts of the country, it likely ranges from 'nobody cares' to strict government enforcement.

 

[PelicanPines]

I got a thing that plugs into and covers a wall outlet... it has two plugs plus USB... it sticks out an inch and doesn't look bad at all.

 

[Shiftless]

I got a thing that plugs into and covers a wall outlet... it has two plugs plus USB... it sticks out an inch and doesn't look bad at all.

I’ll see that and raise you 4
Here is one that also simply plugs into a duplex receptacle.

The green lights indicate your device is fully charged. They show red while charging.
The blue light is on all the time to help you find it in a dark area.

 

[djb2]

In some regions it is a requirement that each receptacle that requires GFCI protection to have their own GFCI. That avoids the complication of diagnosing what has failed when the upstream GFCI has tripped. It's not any safer, but it does potentially save money on a service call which would cost more than a few extra GFCI receptacle.

 

[Shiftless]

Gee, that would be every single receptacle in the house, garage, outbuilding...
Think also about WR, TR and AFCI requirements.

Hence, the expensive GFCI breakers

 

[Bert_]

In some regions it is a requirement that each receptacle that requires GFCI protection to have their own GFCI. That avoids the complication of diagnosing what has failed when the upstream GFCI has tripped. It's not any safer, but it does potentially save money on a service call which would cost more than a few extra GFCI receptacle.

I'd switch to a GFCI breaker before that. Everybody knows to check the breaker. It's really to bad the outlets are so much cheaper. Although that is changing with the ever expanding AFCI requirements. A dual function is barely more than an AFCI.

 

[mjeff87]

I got a thing that plugs into and covers a wall outlet... it has two plugs plus USB... it sticks out an inch and doesn't look bad at all.

I'm rocking one of those things now. It makes a really high pitched squeal-ish type sound if nothing is plugged into it, and I can only imagine it's drawing vampire current (along with about 9000 other things plugged in in my house lol). I have to pull it off the receptacle when not in use. I was just hoping to replace the stupid outlet with some built-in USB ports, but I'm coming to realize that it's just not worth it all. I'll just keep using it for now.

 

[Shiftless]

Good idea
Keep It Simple

BTW, the model I pictured yesterday (post #23) is the one I use. Actually I run 2 of them. Purchased at Costco. No squealing when plugged in (24/7). Any “vampire” current draw is probably only a few pennies per year.

 

[JRC3]

I got a thing that plugs into and covers a wall outlet... it has two plugs plus USB... it sticks out an inch and doesn't look bad at all.

If it has two sets of prongs on the back, most do, it won't work on a GFCI outlet, the plug spacing is different.



As already said a breaker is the best choice if you must have a USB outlet in that exact location. Depending on what load center you have that might also be a challenge. For example, some Square D GFCI breakers have a nub on the back and will only fit into certain slots on the load center so you might have to move some things around. Not sure about other brands.