warm gfci

[mrobins297aaa]

I just finished wiring some plugs in my barn and I noticed that the gfci plugs are warm to the touch is that normal?

at each location there exposed mounted I have a 4" box with one gfci and 1 duplex recp' on the load side.

Thanks

 

[Big N8]

What gage wire are you using, What size circuit, and check your connections. Also make sure you don't put two gfci receptacles on one circuit or you could have issues.

 

[mrb]

Also make sure you don't put two gfci receptacles on one circuit or you could have issues.

wrong.

 

[mrobins297aaa]

I have 20 amp circuit with #12 wire, I have 4 gfci with a total 13 outlets.....they work fine they just feel warm, I don't want them to burn my barn down.

 

[mrobins297aaa]

just to clarify 4 gfci and 9 outlets = 13 total

 

[Charles (in GA)]

Warm with no load on the circuit anywhere? or warm when you are using the circuit to run a tool, light, equipment, etc.?

Charles

 

[mrobins297aaa]

no load only the green led light.

with temp gun the wall and box are 86 deg and the plug is 94 deg just enough that it feels warm.
maybe I'm being a nut over this but just want to be safe.

 

[mrb]

what make / model gfci receptacle?

 

[mrobins297aaa]

Ses..?

 

[Big N8]

What gage wire are you using, What size circuit, and check your connections. Also make sure you don't put two gfci receptacles on one circuit or you could have issues.

wrong.

Not wrong. they can have issues with bleed voltage and one can trip the others if they are not wired correctly.

GFCI devices do have a small circuit board inside them that can get warm if you have a loose conection anywhere in the circuit. But if they are all getting a little warm I would say it is just the brand or the power you have running to them.

I just walked around my house and felt three different receptacles one is brand new and on a 20 amp circuit (Hubbell brand) and didn't feel warm at all. The other two are in my bath rooms one is very old maybe original to the home (no idea what brand) and is warm to the touch so is the other unit that I got at a BBS sale.

So I have not done any work on those circuits in several months. Not sure what to make of it.

 

[mrb]

the gfi's are your problem. Those are no name junk chinese ones. I checked the UL number on the box and its not valid (E256800 unless i read it wrong). Fake UL listing = potential fire. I would immediately remove those, return them to where you bought them and replace with leviton or cooper. Why someone would use a no name electrical product is beyond me, especially when its a safety item.

 

[mrb]

Not wrong. they can have issues with bleed voltage and one can trip the others if they are not wired correctly.

can you back this up with some facts and documentation?

 

[mrobins297aaa]

the gfi's are your problem. Those are no name junk chinese ones. I checked the UL number on the box and its not valid (E256800 unless i read it wrong). Fake UL listing = potential fire. I would immediately remove those, return them to where you bought them and replace with leviton or cooper. Why someone would use a no name electrical product is beyond me, especially when its a safety item.

trying to save money I guess, I bought them on ebay.
you've got the right number e256800, could you tell me how you checked it out? so I can see for myself and go back to the seller with the info.

It says made in china on the box, I just think the leviton ones are made in china also probably in the same factory...........thats only a guess I don't have any proof of that.

I do appreciate all your comments

 

[mrb]

to check UL number http://database.ul.com/cgi-bin/XYV/template/LISEXT/1FRAME/gfilenbr.html

Yes leviton ones are made in china but in leviton's factory with oversight, QA, etc. Hardly fly by night.

I would be interested in getting ahold of one of those, i dont know what color youre using but i have a new in box beige leviton smartlock i would trade for one of the chinese GFCIs.

my guess is to where the heat is coming from, theyre probably using one or more resistors to drop the line voltage for the GFCI circuitry (if it even has it) instead of real power supply like others do.

I would report the seller to ebay for selling counterfeit goods -what did you pay for these?

 

[mrb]

A complaint has been sent to the CSPC and copied to UL. Hopefully they will take action on this.

Folks: only buy name brand electrical material from authorized retailers. The cost savings of buying items of questionable origin (including name brand items such as circuit breakers on ebay for example -this was a big problem a few years ago with counterfeit SQD breakers that didnt have a trip mechanism in them ) is not worth the potential danger.

edit: maybe DDawg16 has a contact at ICE he can send this to?

 

[MrMark]

I have the leviton from an electrical supply store. About $12 and they have the green light. 82 degrees with a Snap-on gun. The non-gfi outlets it feeds are 77 as is the wall. Mine are properly wired.

edit: depending on where I hit the plug with the gun I get varying readings. I can get 85 or 86 at one spot (where I assume the circuit board is) and I get 87 on the led light.

 

[rockchucker]

Hmm. 5° difference. I guess I have never checked closely or thought there might be a difference. I only use Lutron, Cooper or Leviton for any wiring though. Not worth it to cheap out on fire hazards!

 

[mrobins297aaa]

to check UL number http://database.ul.com/cgi-bin/XYV/template/LISEXT/1FRAME/gfilenbr.html

Yes leviton ones are made in china but in leviton's factory with oversight, QA, etc. Hardly fly by night.

I would be interested in getting ahold of one of those, i dont know what color youre using but i have a new in box beige leviton smartlock i would trade for one of the chinese GFCIs.

my guess is to where the heat is coming from, theyre probably using one or more resistors to drop the line voltage for the GFCI circuitry (if it even has it) instead of real power supply like others do.

I would report the seller to ebay for selling counterfeit goods -what did you pay for these?

pm your address and I'll send you one when you get it you can send me the biege one back.............I think there still on ebay, it was 10 gfci for $35 with free shipping if you didn't want expedited shipping, really cheap.

 

[mrobins297aaa]

I have the leviton from an electrical supply store. About $12 and they have the green light. 82 degrees with a Snap-on gun. The non-gfi outlets it feeds are 77 as is the wall. Mine are properly wired.

edit: depending on where I hit the plug with the gun I get varying readings. I can get 85 or 86 at one spot (where I assume the circuit board is) and I get 87 on the led light.

thats pretty close to what I'm getting

 

[ishiboo]

A complaint has been sent to the CSPC and copied to UL. Hopefully they will take action on this.

Folks: only buy name brand electrical material from authorized retailers. The cost savings of buying items of questionable origin (including name brand items such as circuit breakers on ebay for example -this was a big problem a few years ago with counterfeit SQD breakers that didnt have a trip mechanism in them ) is not worth the potential danger.

edit: maybe DDawg16 has a contact at ICE he can send this to?

The UL database does not have every product in it, it could really be UL-certified. I wouldn't go cheap on a GFCI either, but there may be nothing wrong with it... probably a small resistor to drop the LED voltage or the LED isn't dropped enough, which is just enough to heat it up. Very difficult to figure out since they probably make the exact same product under both foreign and local brand names. If they keep the electronics and plug the same, but just vary the case, it may keep the same UL number as well?

 

[mrobins297aaa]

so how would you check to see if it is ul certified?

 

[Aceman]

Not wrong.

Okay, since you're so sure, lets think about this a little bit.

So all those small appliance kitchen countertop circuits in millions of homes with 2 gfci's or more per circuit don't work?

How about all the outdoor GFCI's on posts for trucking companies to plug their block heaters into that have two or more gfci's on a circuit, they don't work either?

What about marinas, dairies, outdoor areas and the million other places that have more than two gfci's per circuit?

Do you honestly think everytime I need to install a gfci outlet I run a dedicated circuit to each one?

Is this starting to sound ridiculous enough for you yet? Do you think there is a slight possibility that, in fact, you might be wrong?

WTF...

 

[mrobins297aaa]

I think that it might be a legit # E256800 because if you goggle "ul e256800"
I lot of business are selling products referencing that number, now whether this product has been tested by ul could be another matter..........I don't really know that much about it

 

[mrobins297aaa]

Okay, since you're so sure, lets think about this a little bit.

So all those small appliance kitchen countertop circuits in millions of homes with 2 gfci's or more per circuit don't work?

How about all the outdoor GFCI's on posts for trucking companies to plug their block heaters into that have two or more gfci's on a circuit, they don't work either?

What about marinas, dairies, outdoor areas and the million other places that have more than two gfci's per circuit?

Do you honestly think everytime I need to install a gfci outlet I run a dedicated circuit to each one?

Is this starting to sound ridiculous enough for you yet? Do you think there is a slight possibility that, in fact, you might be wrong?

WTF...

Ace do you think it is normal for the gfci plugs to feel warm?

 

[Aceman]

Just buy some name brand GFCI's and be done with it.

It isn't even worth talking about these no name pieces of **** you bought at the dollar store if you're worried about burning your barn down....

Leviton, Hubbell, Pass and Seymour, Cooper. There's some name brands to get you started.

 

[mrobins297aaa]

yeah i guess your right

 

[mrb]

The UL database does not have every product in it, it could really be UL-certified. I wouldn't go cheap on a GFCI either, but there may be nothing wrong with it... probably a small resistor to drop the LED voltage or the LED isn't dropped enough, which is just enough to heat it up. Very difficult to figure out since they probably make the exact same product under both foreign and local brand names. If they keep the electronics and plug the same, but just vary the case, it may keep the same UL number as well?

the UL number doesnt even exist. The UL database does have every 'product' in it. The UL file also contains all brand names and model numbers a product is sold under. For example if I have XYC company make a GFI for me I can either have XYC company add my company and brand to their UL file, or I can pay UL to have my own UL file which references the XYC company file.

bottom line this is not ok. the device hasnt been tested, how do we know it even has GFI circuitry in it?

 

[mrb]

I think that it might be a legit # E256800 because if you goggle "ul e256800"
I lot of business are selling products referencing that number, now whether this product has been tested by ul could be another matter..........I don't really know that much about it

its not a legit number because its not in the UL file. Google the number and you find the chinese vendors selling the things and shady retailers importing them and reselling them.

 

[MrMark]

Okay, since you're so sure, lets think about this a little bit.

So all those small appliance kitchen countertop circuits in millions of homes with 2 gfci's or more per circuit don't work?

How about all the outdoor GFCI's on posts for trucking companies to plug their block heaters into that have two or more gfci's on a circuit, they don't work either?

What about marinas, dairies, outdoor areas and the million other places that have more than two gfci's per circuit?

Do you honestly think everytime I need to install a gfci outlet I run a dedicated circuit to each one?

Is this starting to sound ridiculous enough for you yet? Do you think there is a slight possibility that, in fact, you might be wrong?

WTF...

I don't understand why you would do this. Why waste money like that? Why not just wire it properly with one GFCI and regular outlets on the load. I have two GFCI's on one circuit in the kitchen, but that is because it is a special plug that split off the run and I didn't do it originally. It was done wrong in the beginning with the a nonGFCI plug on a potentially wet location and I needed to fix the problem. I could have redone it but I had already redone that box with the GFCI in it before and it was crowded and it was easier for me just to put in the second GFCI than redo the circuit connections in the box for the second time. So, I recognize that there may be times when you put two on the same circuit but the examples you gave do not seem like they would be those times.

 

[mrb]

i think there is a little confusion on the multiple GFI thing. Some people are talking about supplying a GFI from the load terminals of another GFI (which is ok but a pita to reset if you trip it) others are talking about multiple GFIs on one circuit which is also ok. (for example in my kitchen all the receptacles are GFI. let me use a MWBC and i wanted them to all look the same. i like things to match)

 

[MrMark]

Why would anyone use a GFI on the load terminals of another GFI?

Is that what we are talking about here?

 

[Aceman]

I don't understand why you would do this. Why waste money like that? Why not just wire it properly with one GFCI and regular outlets on the load. I have two GFCI's on one circuit in the kitchen, but that is because it is a special plug that split off the run and I didn't do it originally. It was done wrong in the beginning with the a nonGFCI plug on a potentially wet location and I needed to fix the problem. I could have redone it but I had already redone that box with the GFCI in it before and it was crowded and it was easier for me just to put in the second GFCI than redo the circuit connections in the box for the second time. So, I recognize that there may be times when you put two on the same circuit but the examples you gave do not seem like they would be those times.

You don't understand why I would put two GFCI's on one circuit?

1. I like countertop receps to match, therefore I try to use GFCI's at every outlet rather than feeding through...

2. Truck plugs. You can put more than one block heater on a circuit, so using one GFCI with a feed through duplex for the other block heaters on the same circuit is poor design. One bad block heater would trip the entire circuit, leaving several trucks not able to start.

3. Marinas, dairies, outdoor receps, etc. Some people don't like to have to walk clear around their building to find the GFCI feeding the duplex they just tripped. I'm wiring a shop right now that has outside receps all on one circuit, do you think I should line/load one GFCI and then duplex the rest? Or would that piss you off if you tripped it at the front of the shop and had to walk around to the back to reset the GFCI before you could start work again?

 

[mrb]

Why would anyone use a GFI on the load terminals of another GFI?

Is that what we are talking about here?

no thats not what we're talking about (but thats what the guy who said you cant do it was referring to)

no reason to supply a gfci from another gfci but there is nothing wrong with it. Its actually a common scenario when things with a GFCI plug (hairdryer) get plugged into a gfci receptacle.

 

[MrMark]

You guys crack me up. I get your examples now, kind of. The truck one is the only one that I really see. Kind of a laziness factor. You all carry on about running these inherently unsafe MWBC's (mainly to the next guy coming along) to save 10 cents worth of wire and then you go about putting 12 dollar GFCI's in instead of 4 dollar plugs so someone doesn't have to walk a few feet to reset. I can't remember the last time I tripped a GFCI, I think it was an outdoor plug that was damp. It is simply not an issue to me. So I doubt it would piss me off. What it would do is make me think about why it tripped and what was causing it and if I had an unsafe condition. I assure you I wouldn't just willy nilly push the reset.

 

[mrobins297aaa]

here's the ebay auction number 260780309737
same person is still selling them

 

[MrMark]

I'm sure they are OK. The Leviton are Chinese too. And heat just the same. They are probably made by the same man. The Chinese aren't exactly known for failing to copy designs of major companies.

Just test them if you want.

 

[mrb]

I'm sure they are OK. The Leviton are Chinese too. And heat just the same. They are probably made by the same man. The Chinese aren't exactly known for failing to copy designs of major companies.

Just test them if you want.

thats a bold statement. we have no idea whats inside these things. If its a counterfeit device theyre cutting more corners than just paying UL. Ever seen the extension cords that are all PVC with like 22ga copper inside? Circuit breakers that are just a switch? If these things are $3.** each here in the USA including shipping then they were probably $0.75 in china. Website for the place that made them seems to be gone.

I'm anxious to get my hands on one and see whats what.

 

[MrMark]

Well check it out by all means. That is why I said to test them. You can do a rudimentary test to see if they detect current leakage. I just am not one to put much stock in buying one chinese product over another. I figure they are all the same. I don't buy the Leviton factory and qc stuff.

If I have to buy Chinese stuff, I will not pay for the name of some absentee landlord type company. That is just rewarding them for their decision to outsource. If I saw the prices come down that would be different but at 12 dollars for the leviton GFCI from China I don't see where they lowered their prices for that Chinese cheap labor.

 

[mrb]

Well check it out by all means. That is why I said to test them. You can do a rudimentary test to see if they detect current leakage. I just am not one to put much stock in buying one chinese product over another. I figure they are all the same. I don't buy the Leviton factory and qc stuff.

If I have to buy Chinese stuff, I will not pay for the name of some absentee landlord type company.

companies like leviton are not absentee landlord type companies, these are billion dollar enterprises with their own factories there. Its not like theyre taking Feng Zu GFCIs and putting them in a leviton box. They are leviton designed, and made in a leviton factory with UL supervision.

 

[ddawg16]

A complaint has been sent to the CSPC and copied to UL. Hopefully they will take action on this.

Folks: only buy name brand electrical material from authorized retailers. The cost savings of buying items of questionable origin (including name brand items such as circuit breakers on ebay for example -this was a big problem a few years ago with counterfeit SQD breakers that didnt have a trip mechanism in them ) is not worth the potential danger.

edit: maybe DDawg16 has a contact at ICE he can send this to?

I most likely do.....but I don't think they would be very interested unless the fleabay seller is illegal.....but I'll be glad to impound his car and beat him to a pulp with my night stick if anyone thinks that will help.....

All joking aside....the heat issue would bother me.....heat = wasted energy....and as mentioned above, they are most likley using a simple resistor and diode to drop the voltage for the LED and support electronics instead of a transformer. How long before the resitor burns up? If the manuf is that cheap....how cheap of a resistor do you think they used?