Was this wire mesh laid correctly?

[dh128905]

Hi, having problems with my 2200+ sq ft of concrete that was poured in April. I went back and looked at some security footage I have, and see they only used wire mesh for about half of the pad. I know there are mixed opinions on wire mesh, but just trying to gauge from the community how neglectful/irresponsible/damaging this may or may not be?

I watched the videos all the way through, and there is no mesh where I put circles in the pictures.

Thank you

 

[PopcornSutton]

Unfortunately, this happens more often then not. Not the missing mesh, but the lack of effort to lift the mesh. Rarely will concrete guys lift mesh. On Govt work where the inspectors are very picky, the only way to get it done is to have a dedicated worker doing nothing but pulling wire as the concrete is placed. Most crews don't want to pay for a person to pull wire.

Even then, wire mesh is so flimsy, just walking in the pour to shovel, pull, screed the concrete will push it down. And it's too flimsy to put chairs under it. The best method is to have someone pulling wire up constantly during the pour.

 

[dh128905]

Unfortunately, this happens more often then not. Not the missing mesh, but the lack of effort to lift the mesh. Rarely will concrete guys lift mesh. On Govt work where the inspectors are very picky, the only way to get it done is to have a dedicated worker doing nothing but pulling wire as the concrete is placed. Most crews don't want to pay for a person to pull wire.

Even then, wire mesh is so flimsy, just walking in the pour to shovel, pull, screed the concrete will push it down. And it's too flimsy to put chairs under it. The best method is to have someone pulling wire up constantly during the pour.

I need to go back and look at the videos in more detail. I do remember the larger detached pad (not pictured) the mesh was elevated. This does not appear to be elevated though

 

[dh128905]

Upon reviewing the video, I see the contractor lifting the mesh prior to the concrete being poured, and then letting it go to lay flat on the ground right before the concrete lands on the ground. No attempts to lift it the rest of the video

 

[BillK]

Hi, having problems with my 2200+ sq ft of concrete that was poured in April.

What problems are you having ?

 

[PCustoms]

Hi, having problems with my 2200+ sq ft of concrete that was poured in April. I went back and looked at some security footage I have, and see they only used wire mesh for about half of the pad. I know there are mixed opinions on wire mesh, but just trying to gauge from the community how neglectful/irresponsible/damaging this may or may not be?

I watched the videos all the way through, and there is no mesh where I put circles in the pictures.

Thank you

What are the problems you're having?

In those pics, it looks like the left the mesh out where they are working (i.e. truck parked), I'm guessing the dropped it in as the got further along.

 

[dante2]

Is there really any benefit to the mesh if it's barely contacting the concrete? I drove a concrete truck many years ago and I for the most the crews were real good about pulling the mesh up but then they still walked on it later.

 

[dh128905]

What problems are you having ?

Calcium. Wasn’t mixed correctly. I have what appears to be the driver going up the truck to dump calcium in directly from the bag. Unfortunately it’s only a 3 second clip I took before I left for work. See photos

What are the problems you're having?

In those pics, it looks like the left the mesh out where they are working (i.e. truck parked), I'm guessing the dropped it in as the got further along.

I watched the whole video, and they did not. There was more mesh laying beside them on the grass, but they took it away hours later.

Is there really any benefit to the mesh if it's barely contacting the concrete? I drove a concrete truck many years ago and I for the most the crews were real good about pulling the mesh up but then they still walked on it later.

That is one of my questions. The mesh is just laying on the ground. The video shows this very clearly

 

[ConCretin]

It seems clear from your posts that the mesh wasn't installed correctly and in part of the placement, it wasn't installed as all. The sole consequence of this is that any cracks that occurred won't be restrained from opening up. The likelihood of this occurring is dependent on the amount of shrinkage you get. If the cracks open up enough and your base isn't stable, your slab could displace vertically as well.

 

[ConCretin]

Calcium. Wasn’t mixed correctly. I have what appears to be the driver going up the truck to dump calcium in directly from the bag. Unfortunately it’s only a 3 second clip I took before I left for work. See photos

Calcium is often mixed at the job site. Why do you believe this is a problem?

 

[dh128905]

It’s a crappy situation. I have pretty solid evidence to win a full lawsuit, I’m out of the country for work 6 months a year - often times with minimal notice. Would be really hard to file a lawsuit and follow through on it completely. The concrete supplier and installer will not do a tear out and repour, they are only offering core drilling and patching for the 8 large craters. I would need to file a lawsuit.

I may allow them to do the repairs, but make it clear that this will need to be re-evaluated in the spring after freeze-thaw cycles here in northeast Ohio.

It seems clear from your posts that the mesh wasn't installed correctly and in part of the placement, it wasn't installed as all. The sole consequence of this is that any cracks that occurred won't be restrained from opening up. The likelihood of this occurring is dependent on the amount of shrinkage you get. If the cracks open up enough and your base isn't stable, your slab could displace vertically as well.

Thank you, that is very helpful

 

[dh128905]

Calcium is often mixed at the job site. Why do you believe this is a problem?

I’ve had 3 separate concrete companies come out, and all concluded this to be the case after evaluating the concrete and my samples. Some of the samples are almost a clay like substance. I have the supplier and installer on audio recording stating this to be the case.

Did you see the picture of the driver climbing the ladder with the bags over his shoulder? Possible he mixed them up there? The truck was over an hour late that day and they were in a hurry to get started

 

[dh128905]

A few of the pictures before and after some VERY light tapping

 

[PCustoms]

A few of the pictures before and after some VERY light tapping

Those pictures show a lot more then what you had in the OP...


Can you hire a lawyer, and just have them fully represent you for the lawsuit in the event you are suddenly out of the country?

 

[dh128905]

Those pictures show a lot more then what you had in the OP...


Can you hire a lawyer, and just have them fully represent you for the lawsuit in the event you are suddenly out of the country?

Yes that’s because I wanted to focus on the original question regarding the mesh. putting all the pieces together.

As far as attorneys, I’ve never met one I trust. How much would I end up paying them out of pocket? $10k? $15k?

 

[PCustoms]

As far as attorneys, I’ve never met one I trust. How much would I end up paying them out of pocket? $10k? $15k?

No clue, but how are you going to sue the contractor without an attorney, small claims?

What's the value of the slab? Did you pay in full?

 

[Rusty Wrench]

Can you hire a lawyer, and just have them fully represent you for the lawsuit in the event you are suddenly out of the country?

You can but dh's direct testimony may be necessary.

@dh128905
Absolutely talk to an attorney. Generally the first hour is free to evaluate the merits of your case.
However, could be a pyrrhic victory after cost. My friend sued a contractor over a bad pour. He said he came out about even.

I think $10K is in the ballpark

Concrete is a tough ticket here in NE OH by my experience. I've had 3 significant pours; none of which I was happy with, in spite of references. I'm sure there are good concrete folks out there. Just haven't met one yet.

 

[dura eagle]

Those voids are clay balls, I worked In a sand pit mining sand years ago. When we would wet screen rock the clay wouldn’t break down and go through the screen, ending up in the concrete.

 

[The Cobbler]

wire mesh laying on the bottom of the concrete has very little if any positive effect.
I watched a few videos on you tube, the guys thought they were the best concrete guys in the universe. not once did they ever pull up the mesh. they did other stupid stuff too, I stopped watching them quickly .
My buddy in the concrete business, always puts mesh or rebar on chairs .

 

[Beauregard]

When I had a concrete crew, we were adamant about pulling up the mesh.
We used hooks made for the trucking industry to release 5th wheels.
https://www.4statetrucks.com/31-inc...ller-with-s-hook-bar-style-handle-09-05110509 We used six of these on a pour.
The light mesh comes in rolls and doesn't work with tables, it has to be pulled up as you work.
We experimented with placing the mesh on the surface after the first screed but had problems pushing it down uniformly. We also had issues with the mesh getting very hot on a sunny day before placing it in the pad.
The only answer with light mesh is to pull it up as you go, and I mean constantly.

The problem with a lawsuit is showing clear damages. We at GJ can see the issues, but a Judge may see a decent pad. Most people think all pads have some flaws and go "Meh".

 

[PopcornSutton]

Good for you Beauregard!

 

[ConCretin]

It seems odd to me but If local contractors and the concrete supplier are saying it's the calcium I'm in no position to argue. I'd have suspected it's related to the raw materials that are quarried for use in concrete in your area. Dura Eagles suggestion of clay balls or something similar makes more sense to me. In any case, you've got some ugly surface defects that need to be addressed.

Between the poor installation and downright absence of wire mesh and the surface defects, you might prevail in court and get the slab replaced but it would be a long and costly battle with no guarantee of success. If you don't want to go down that road, I don't see any reason you couldn't just repair the defective areas. If done properly over sound concrete, repairs shouldn't be too noticeable and last the lifetime of the slab.

I'm not sure I'm a fan of coring out the bad areas. I'd rather chip the bad concrete out and do a surface repair rather than have a cylindrical full depth patch that wouldn't bond as well.

 

[lmg]

I was really shocked to see the calcium chloride (CC) being dosed from bags. My career includes about 15 years of being involved in concrete production and placement quality control, including about 6-8 years as quality manager/trouble shooter. I have never heard of dosing CC from anything other than a liquid solution, and then always at the batch plant where you can be assured that it gets thoroughly mixed into the batch.

Also, CC is dosed based on pounds of cement in the mix, probably not done here. Overdosing has consequences, but that may be the least of the problems here. I doubt that the ready mix company is going to be liable for any issues that show up.

I was also surprised to see it being used when it is not cold weather, it looks like green leaves coming out on shrubs in the foreground in some photos, and green trees in the background, but these could be pines or other non deciduous trees.

What I see in some of the photos is non dissolved CC. I doubt it contributed much to acceleration of the setting time.

Anyway, my concerns are:
1. Looking at the photos, it appears that the CC apparently never completely dissolved in the concrete. Since CC is a desiccant, it will want to draw water to itself and hold the water, and these spots will continue to show up as a darker grey than adjacent surface. As the slab goes through freeze/thaw cycles, the moisture in/around the granules will freeze and delaminate the surface, and the newly exposed surface below that will have the same response. Assuming that the granules are mixed throughout the concrete the slab will probably and eventually revert back to the sand and the coarse aggregate it was made from. Also CC granules very close to the wire mesh may cause corrosion, and if near the surface, may cause additional pop outs, but it sounds like most of the mesh is going to be deep in the slab.

I wish you luck in getting this resolved to your satisfaction.

 

[dura eagle]

I have had good luck patching holes and even broken corners using thin set that used to stick tiles.
It sticks really good and matches the concrete pretty well too.
It ***** to get a half a$$ job but you might as well just live with it.
Probably should have took the day off and over seen what was going on.

 

[Beemer]

We never allowed calcium chloride in over 40 years of commercial buildings.
There are metal friendly accelerators but there seems to be a hurdle that residential contractors just can't get over.

 

[ConCretin]

We never allowed calcium chloride in over 40 years of commercial buildings.
There are metal friendly accelerators but there seems to be a hurdle that residential contractors just can't get over.

The OP's contractor solved this problem by leaving out the metal.

 

[wssix99]

I was also surprised to see it being used when it is not cold weather, it looks like green leaves coming out on shrubs in the foreground in some photos, and green trees in the background, but these could be pines or other non deciduous trees.

Me, too. I can't imagine why they would want to accelerate the mix unless they were trying to short-cut the job and get out of there quickly.

It seems odd to me but If local contractors and the concrete supplier are saying it's the calcium I'm in no position to argue. I'd have suspected it's related to the raw materials that are quarried for use in concrete in your area.

My guess is that the local contractors know even less about concrete and don't know about using calcium chloride as an admixture. They are probably thinking that it is having an effect on the pavement like road salt spread on a highway. ...which is a totally different thing and, as you point out, there is no steel to create a theoretical or actual problem!


The issue at hand looks to me to be scaling. (Crack control could be a future issue due to the lack of effective use of mesh, but it seems that we don't see that now.) Looking at the pictures, it seems that the layer of cement on top of the pavement is pretty thick. My guess is that the crew improperly accelerated the concrete in warmish weather, got into trouble with the concrete setting to fast and then either added too much water during finishing or over-tooled the concrete. (Leading to a weak topping, scaling and other surface defects.)

If there are still pictures or video, I would also look for them spraying the concrete with water or having distress during finishing.

 

[Old tool guy]

Hire a concrete testing lab to examine the slab and take several test cylinders. The wire mesh situation isn’t going to be anything you can get resolved on it’s own, but if you can prove the slab doesn’t meet the psi that was ordered you can win. The lab can probably look at the slab and take cylinders from just the right places to ensure the results are in your favor.

 

[Beemer]

The OP's contractor solved this problem by leaving out the metal.

Ya, is that a going to be a credit or change order cost?

 

[acer66]

Ya, is that a going to be a credit or change order cost?

Change order cost since they also have to go through the hassle to charge the next customer for it again.

 

[ConCretin]

I don't think there is any doubt based on the evidence that the OP's contractors are complete hacks. Mesh laid in the dirt or not installed at all, not to mention calcium used to accelerate concrete in April apparently to reduce finishing time. We don't know the contractual or payment status is but in a perfect world, that slab would be ripped up and replaced.

Unfortunately, it's far from a perfect world. Hopefully the OP can navigate his way to an acceptable conclusion.