Washer shaking on 2nd floor - Need suggestions

[StRacerDuke]

Hey guys,

I have a new Bosch 500 series front load washer/dryer on the second floor laundry room and the washer is shaking the house like crazy. The room is sound insulated and the floors are reinforced. The flooring is tile (13x13) with a floor drain.

I have the washer level using the feet. I've purchased 'good vibrations' pads (http://www.gviinc.net) for the washer and they seam to help a little but it hasn't solved the problem.

Today I had a factory authorized repair man out to see if the unit was out of balance from the factory. They told me it was working correctly and there is a 'normal' amount of vibrations for this unit. He said that they do not advise that these go on the second floor and we should never have put a front loader on the second floor.

Next steps: I need to think of some creative solutions for this one. I'm thinking some type of garage mat under the feet to help with more dampening or a soft mat, followed by a thin piece of plywood, then the vibration feet, the the washer. The thinking is that the wood between the two would help break up the load and vibrations between the two dampeners.

Any other thoughts or suggestions? I'm not excited about having to shell out another 2K for new washers/dryers and ditch these two.

 

[NitroPress]

Re: Washer shanking on 2nd floor - Need suggestions

It's common knowledge (or should be - for salesmen at least), and in the manuals, sales material and most online product descriptions to avoid putting front-load washers on anything but a very solid floor - and most second floors don't qualify. Bosch is good stuff, but I think you chose poorly given the laundry room location, and I don't think you're going to find any good fix for it. It's not a matter of floor padding, it's that 30 pounds of clothes spinning perpendicular to gravity are going to create a whole lotta shaking at low frequency, and that's going to transmit to the house structure. The only real solution is a very well-built upper floor structure that won't shake.

Live with the shake (which can do structural damage over time), or find a replacement. I have all Bosch kitchen appliances but our W/D stack is Samsung, which at the time had a proprietary anti-shake mechanism that seems to work very well. Only the heaviest loads cause any shake, and then only for a few moments as the washer adjusts speed and the dynamic balance assembly. I can't say it would be better than the Bosch, but if you have to have a front-loader upstairs, you might see... I dunno, if you can borrow one or something.

If you buy, buy online - AJ Madison and AppliancesConnection are scads cheaper than any retail outlet, and shipping is free. (Probably tax free, too, if you don't live in NY.) I've bought 6-7 big appliances through them, probably saved $10k overall and had zero problems. You do have to be patient about delivery, though.

 

[richtersrodz]

Re: Washer shanking on 2nd floor - Need suggestions

I had a front load washer and dryer in my old house. It was pier and beam, and it was
installed under the kitchen counter. When the whole kitchen would shake, and stuff would
start moving across the bar, when it was spinning, I knew it was time to crawl under the
house and re-shim the floor. It would cause the steel shims to vibrate out from under the
floor joist, and the concrete blocks under the house. But when it was solid, the shake
would go away. So it sounds like the floor may not be as strong in that area as you may
want it to be.

I had the tops removed on mine, so that they would fit under the counter top. You could
see the supports and stuff with the top removed. Have you tried to remove the top and
take a look, to make sure the drum is still suspended properly? Also, I had some long
screws in there, that I had to remove, that secured the drum during shipping. Make sure
your drum is not tied down with those shipping brackets. (if you didn't install the unit yourself)

Just my $.02

 

[SuperSocket]

Re: Washer shanking on 2nd floor - Need suggestions

This is not good. I would suggest that you get out asap and call the cops.

A "shanking" washing machine is very dangerous and you should leave the knife wielding washer to the proper authorities. I always recommend that home owners check all their washing machines prior to entry upon the property for any metallic objects or any objects that can be formed or sculpted into a blade or sharp object.


Sorry, I couldn't resist.

 

[SuperSocket]

Re: Washer shanking on 2nd floor - Need suggestions

I would return the washing machine. Never put a washing machine on a second floor? What is Bosch smoking? Almost every new constructed two story home comes with a laundry room on the second floor.... my one property has a nice laundry room on the second floor... never had that problem (Whirlpool Cabrio washer and dryer).

Your machine should not shake so much as you are describing. I would return the thing and get another brand that has some sense. This is a larger investment that last a bit longer than most, so I would definitively make sure you get the right one.

 

[rlitman]

Re: Washer shanking on 2nd floor - Need suggestions

Any front loader will do that on the 2nd floor of a wood frame house.
Bosch, Whirlpool Duet, LG, Kenmore, the principle is the same for all of them.
The Whirlpool Cabrio is a top loader. Totally different forces involved.

For my parent's house, I made foot pads out of 1/2" thick Sorbothane sheet. It decouples the machine from the floor. The machine will visually appear to shake MORE, but the house will shake much less (you can still feel it, but it's not so bad).
I also placed some foam between the washer and dryer, to prevent them from bumping each other.

In my house, I have foam between the washer and dryer, and between the washer and the wall on the left. If the moving washer bumps into anything, it will transmit an impact that will cause bad shaking and noise.

One thing I considered, was hanging a platform from the ceiling on chains (kind of how you hang a central air handler. Probably would put a porch-swing spring in each corner, and some sort of dampener to keep it from moving too much.
It would probably work, if I could get adequate support set up from above, but it wasn't worth the effort or the ugliness.

 

[NitroPress]

Re: Washer shanking on 2nd floor - Need suggestions

One thing I considered, was hanging a platform from the ceiling on chains (kind of how you hang a central air handler. Probably would put a porch-swing spring in each corner, and some sort of dampener to keep it from moving too much.

I think you'd just transfer the shake to the even less-stable upper structure. A spring base might be a better solution, but it would be tricky to design. The wrong spring sizes and rates and it could set up a harmonic shake rather than damping it out.

Best, probably, not to put a front-loader on an upstairs floor... something the OP's sales person should have known and cautioned against.

 

[Warrenator]

Re: Washer shanking on 2nd floor - Need suggestions

Can you use this as an excuse to add on to your garage, so you can have the washer on a concrete slab? Or build a laundro-hut outside?

 

[weegaz22]

Re: Washer shanking on 2nd floor - Need suggestions

put less clothes in?

 

[weegaz22]

Re: Washer shanking on 2nd floor - Need suggestions

I would return the washing machine. Never put a washing machine on a second floor? What is Bosch smoking? Almost every new constructed two story home comes with a laundry room on the second floor.... my one property has a nice laundry room on the second floor... never had that problem (Whirlpool Cabrio washer and dryer).

yeah...those crazy europeans with their houses built of brick and heavy wood joists... this isnt a problem in the uk....I'd say 99% of EVERY house in the uk has front loader machines i have a neighbour upstairs and she has a neighbour above her.... all with front loaders..sooo stop building houses from matchsticks that a front loader can shake to bits...or buy a toploader

 

[SuperSocket]

Re: Washer shanking on 2nd floor - Need suggestions

Any front loader will do that on the 2nd floor of a wood frame house.
Bosch, Whirlpool Duet, LG, Kenmore, the principle is the same for all of them.
The Whirlpool Cabrio is a top loader. Totally different forces involved.

For my parent's house, I made foot pads out of 1/2" thick Sorbothane sheet. It decouples the machine from the floor. The machine will visually appear to shake MORE, but the house will shake much less (you can still feel it, but it's not so bad).
I also placed some foam between the washer and dryer, to prevent them from bumping each other.

In my house, I have foam between the washer and dryer, and between the washer and the wall on the left. If the moving washer bumps into anything, it will transmit an impact that will cause bad shaking and noise.

One thing I considered, was hanging a platform from the ceiling on chains (kind of how you hang a central air handler. Probably would put a porch-swing spring in each corner, and some sort of dampener to keep it from moving too much.
It would probably work, if I could get adequate support set up from above, but it wasn't worth the effort or the ugliness.

All my neighbors had front loads without any issue....

You could probably add mass like you said and it should work as mass works great to dampen... but why go through all that problems?

 

[SuperSocket]

Re: Washer shanking on 2nd floor - Need suggestions

yeah...those crazy europeans with their houses built of brick and heavy wood joists... this isnt a problem in the uk....I'd say 99% of EVERY house in the uk has front loader machines i have a neighbour upstairs and she has a neighbour above her.... all with front loaders..sooo stop building houses from matchsticks that a front loader can shake to bits...or buy a toploader

Hey now... I like my matchbox!

 

[StRacerDuke]

Re: Washer shanking on 2nd floor - Need suggestions

Any front loader will do that on the 2nd floor of a wood frame house.
Bosch, Whirlpool Duet, LG, Kenmore, the principle is the same for all of them.
The Whirlpool Cabrio is a top loader. Totally different forces involved.

For my parent's house, I made foot pads out of 1/2" thick Sorbothane sheet. It decouples the machine from the floor. The machine will visually appear to shake MORE, but the house will shake much less (you can still feel it, but it's not so bad).
I also placed some foam between the washer and dryer, to prevent them from bumping each other.

In my house, I have foam between the washer and dryer, and between the washer and the wall on the left. If the moving washer bumps into anything, it will transmit an impact that will cause bad shaking and noise.

One thing I considered, was hanging a platform from the ceiling on chains (kind of how you hang a central air handler. Probably would put a porch-swing spring in each corner, and some sort of dampener to keep it from moving too much.
It would probably work, if I could get adequate support set up from above, but it wasn't worth the effort or the ugliness.

Thanks for the suggestions. I'll try a 1/2 pad and see if that will improve the problem. Hanging it is an interesting idea but that's out unfortunately.

I would return the washing machine. Never put a washing machine on a second floor? What is Bosch smoking? Almost every new constructed two story home comes with a laundry room on the second floor.... my one property has a nice laundry room on the second floor... never had that problem (Whirlpool Cabrio washer and dryer).

Your machine should not shake so much as you are describing. I would return the thing and get another brand that has some sense. This is a larger investment that last a bit longer than most, so I would definitively make sure you get the right one.

Returning it is the last option unfortunately. Internet purchase after shopping around locally. Purchased from another state and had no tax/free shipping. I may be out of luck trying to return it.

Unfortunately moving it to the basement or garage is out as there is a specific room upstairs that was built for this purpose only. Too big of a house to have to head down to the basement/garage each time.

At the moment I think my approach is the following:

1. See if I can remedy the problem
2. See if I can return them (99% chance I can't at this point)
3. **** it up and drop another 2K on top loaders

 

[richtersrodz]

Re: Washer shanking on 2nd floor - Need suggestions

4. Have your wife sit on it, and listen to her giggle...

 

[NitroPress]

Re: Washer shanking on 2nd floor - Need suggestions

A few hundred for return freight might be the cheapest option, especially if you buy your replacements from the same seller. Call 'em up and haggle. You WON'T ever really solve this problem and probably don't want to live 10 years with the consequences...

 

[bd8134]

Re: Washer shanking on 2nd floor - Need suggestions

I am not fond of my matchbox, I keep thinking of the 3 little pigs...
Our front loader, maybe an Electrolux is on our first level wooden beamed, tiled floor.
If it is not overloaded it does not vibrate even on its highest spin speed.
It goes through a lot of reversing to settle the load.
As richtersrodz has said, maybe the shipping bolts are still in place or concrete weight is loose inside.
Maybe try moving the washing machine to the 1st level and see if it still shakes.
Bosch is a good make so you would expect it to perform well.

 

[Frank The Plumber]

Re: Washer shanking on 2nd floor - Need suggestions

4. Have your wife sit on it, and listen to her giggle...

I tried this but she only farts.

Me and my poor smell of humor.

 

[Zeke]

If I had it to do over, I would not buy a front loader. But the funny thing is my granny's old 50's FL'r didn't shake.

 

[bigdummy30]

when whirlpools "duet " line first came out they wouldnt warranty anything NOT installed on a concrete floor....whenever i see this in a customers home all i can suggest is getting down to the bare subfloor and then liquid nailing and screwing down a sheet of 3/4 plywood in hopes of "bracing " the floor...if the unit is setting in any kind of "drain pan" its never gonna be good.....make sure the jam nuts are locked down on the feet and try to brace the floor as thick as possible....

 

[bigdummy30]

Re: Washer shanking on 2nd floor - Need suggestions

I would return the washing machine. Never put a washing machine on a second floor? What is Bosch smoking? Almost every new constructed two story home comes with a laundry room on the second floor.... my one property has a nice laundry room on the second floor... never had that problem (Whirlpool Cabrio washer and dryer).

Your machine should not shake so much as you are describing. I would return the thing and get another brand that has some sense. This is a larger investment that last a bit longer than most, so I would definitively make sure you get the right one.

cabrios are top loading washers....not front loaders ...worlds apart.

 

[NitroPress]

I don't think any of the suggestions to brace or pad the floor will work. From your description, if the machine shakes badly to start with, it is likely the structure of the house that isn't up to that load. You'd have to rebrace everything in the area to fix the problem. The best you could do is make it kinda-sorta tolerable, and I'd strongly recommend going for a real fix rather than live with all the problems for years.

Ya made a bonehead mistake. We all have. Undo it.

 

[MScott]

I think there must be a problem with your washer (perhaps a shipping bolt that was not removed as mentioned.) I have a Kenmore front loader that is about 8 years old and it has very little shake, certainly much less than the top loader that it replaced. (That one would walk all around the room.) I have never had it on a cement floor and have never had a problem.
As to using a smaller load, my owners manual said that the washer should be "fully" loaded for best results.
I would suggest looking over the installation manual to see if something was missed when it was set up.

 

[Provincial]

I know that this sounds extreme, but as a last resort I would lag bolt a piece of heavy steel plate large enough to support both the washer and dryer to the structure beneath the appliances. Then securely bolt the washer to the steel plate. The reasoning is this: you need a large mass to absorb the vibration before it transfers to the rest of the house. The steel (at least 1/2" thick) acts as a damper if you can secure it tight enough to the washer.

 

[BADSIX]

we have a frigidaire front loader and does'nt shake at all had a kenmore top loader that was smooth also

 

[treasureseeker]

I don’t know if this will help but “How to” recommends a horse or cow mat.

http://www.ehow.com/how_2117220_reduce-vibrations-washer-dryer.html

Chris

 

[NitroPress]

One of the things that's not been mentioned so far is that while Bosch is a very fine, even premier maker, they do have their quirks. Last time I looked, you couldn't buy a washer that ran on 120 because all their models were high-efficiency 240. (Is your laundry room wired for a 240 washer? None of mine ever have been.) Their dishwashers, maddeningly, will beep until you unload them (or at least open the door)... and the two I've had were the most annoying beepers among many beeping damned things around the house. So if their dryers are meant to be high-efficiency on the spin cycle, maybe das Chermans just put up with the thump and bang in the name of good engineering.

So it's possible another brand would shake less... but from the OP's description of it "shaking the whole house," I'll stand with my bet that it's not a solvable problem - that the structure of the house simply can't take that kind of shake and (particularly being a second floor where access to the structure is limited) it's not fixable within reasonable means. Will be watching for updates, though.

 

[Steevo]

Front loaders are notorious for their shaking. Ours is on a concrete slab floor and rattles the house.

 

[NitroPress]

Front loaders are notorious for their shaking. Ours is on a concrete slab floor and rattles the house.

Our Samsung set has been exceptional. It was on a slab in California and is in a well-built corner of the first floor here, and we rarely notice them running. Sometimes with a heavy load they rumble and thump a little, meaning only that we have to close the laundry room door so as not to have it interfere with a movie. So there are better and worse brands for load stability - probably even better and worse models from each maker. Samsung was, at the time we bought these, trumpeting its new dynamic balancing system, and while I was worried enough about it to buy an extended warranty on the washer (something I rarely do, knowing they are often wasted money), it's been trouble-free and apparently works well. (And they use crazy-little water and are incredibly energy-efficient to boot... I am really pleased with them. One of the more difficult choices of major stuff in recent years and I was prepared for any outcome...)

But on a flexible structure like most residential upper floors, the harmonics would probably get out of hand even with these.

 

[jeffj78]

We have GE front loaders and they shake a little but not to the degree like the OP stated. I would have another technician come out. We had an issue with ours shaking the whole house. After the first visit, we were told it was normal. After I raised hell with GE support, they sent out another technician and it turned out that the spindle developed a hairline crack right where it mounts in the bushing/bearing. The first technician missed it because he didn't want to disassemble the whole machine to check. Took a week to get the parts and all is fine now - new spindle/drum assembly was redesigned. No shaking regardless of load size.

 

[dirttracker18]

Front loaders equal a high speed spin cycle that rotates counter to gravity. None are recommended for second stories as noted.

Tough to make them work well in your situation. Buying a different unit will not likely remedy the problem if it is another front loader.

 

[Tarheelgarage]

Re: Washer shanking on 2nd floor - Need suggestions

4. Have your wife sit on it, and listen to her moan...

fixed it for ya

 

[rlitman]

You have to think about how the vibrations are being transmitted to the house.

A central A/C air handler is hung from chains, so that any horizontal vibrations are absorbed by the air handler just moving, and cannot be transmitted to the structure. Vertical vibrations are taken into the roof, so there's not much that will be transmitted to the floor below.
It really works, but I still can't bring myself to do that for a washer/dryer (man would that be ugly and inconvenient).

Putting them on taller pedestals has a similar (but lesser) effect. The idea is that the more they can move freely, the less they can transmit vibrations to their surroundings.

Adding mass (like a concrete sheet under the machines) will not dampen the vibrations, but it will lower their period.
That may be good or bad, depending on how close that new frequency is to a resonant harmonic of your house.

One thing that should help, would be to use large vibration absorbing feet.
Something like this:
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0042UA5WC/?tag=atomicindus08-20

BUT, when you do something like that, remember that the machine will move around more, so you need to be sure to provide adequate space around it, or put in foam, so it doesn't bump into things.


Edit:
And then I found this:
http://www.vibrationsolution.com/bl...t-loading-washing-machine-vibration-for-2010/

 

[weegaz22]

or like i said, put less clothes in...makes a HUUUGE difference, i can get my machine to walk out from its place if i stuff too much stuff in it. towels are bad for it because they like to hold water

 

[thammel]

We have Kenmore front loaders on the second floor laundry room. I bought vibration pads to reduce the amount. I have to set the spin to low to get an acceptably low level of vibration. When I designed the attached 2nd garage, I attached it via a new mud room/laundry room on the first floor. I have yet to move the machines to there, but I figured that this would help relieve the situation. I agree that because the spin axis is parallel to the floor for front loaders that vibration is essentially unavoidable.

Tom

 

[CUSTOMCLINE]

I put foam tubes used for floating in swimming pools between wall and machine and that solved the issue, found out about it on youtube!

 

[Sureshot]

We used to use mounts for computer equiptment in oilfield rough country conditions that used loops of cable between two layers. You could make a base with these loops from plywood or steel. Some really heavy duty ones where a whole van(think 20' moving van) sat on pieces of cable straight up and moulded in. You could babbet them in some kind of steel mould with the mounting tabs built in. If this makes no sense I can try to find a pic. How much does it weigh with water in? I may still have some of the light ones around. Just went and looked and the ones I have would be to stiff. So off to the google machine.

http://www.isolator.com/

http://www.vibrationmounts.com/RFQ/VM05030A.htm

This one has an animation
http://www.enidine.com/oil-gas/Wiremain.html

This one has pics of the type of cabinetry we used.
http://www.springcompany.com/Vibration_Isolators.htm

"cable vibration mounts" was the google keywords used. Brings up lots of suppliers and configurations


And you were likely thinking what is this retard jabbering about.

 

[rasit]

I know that this sounds extreme, but as a last resort I would lag bolt a piece of heavy steel plate large enough to support both the washer and dryer to the structure beneath the appliances. Then securely bolt the washer to the steel plate. The reasoning is this: you need a large mass to absorb the vibration before it transfers to the rest of the house. The steel (at least 1/2" thick) acts as a damper if you can secure it tight enough to the washer.

How do you suppose he would get this up the stairs? A 4'x6' steel plate 1/2" thick is 500lbs. Now, add the weight of the appliances and water, all concentrated into 24sqft, and put it into high speed spin cycle. It's liable to end in the basement afterall...

 

[TurboCup87]

Re: Washer shanking on 2nd floor - Need suggestions

Thanks for the suggestions. I'll try a 1/2 pad and see if that will improve the problem. Hanging it is an interesting idea but that's out unfortunately.



Returning it is the last option unfortunately. Internet purchase after shopping around locally. Purchased from another state and had no tax/free shipping. I may be out of luck trying to return it.

Unfortunately moving it to the basement or garage is out as there is a specific room upstairs that was built for this purpose only. Too big of a house to have to head down to the basement/garage each time.

At the moment I think my approach is the following:

1. See if I can remedy the problem
2. See if I can return them (99% chance I can't at this point)
3. **** it up and drop another 2K on top loaders

Option 4: Do like we do with our top of the line LG FL washer... use the lowest spin setting. It still has a little vibration in the kitchen below, but it works.

 

[timewarp]

If you really have to keep the front loader upstairs, I think I would try placing some blue foam insulation (like for under a slab) then pouring a 4 inch concrete slab on top of it large enough for the washer and dryer to sit on, this would provide a large mass to absorb some of the vibration and the foam would isolate the vibrations from the rest of the house.

 

[Kevin54]

Re: Washer shanking on 2nd floor - Need suggestions

This is not good. I would suggest that you get out asap and call the cops.

A "shanking" washing machine is very dangerous and you should leave the knife wielding washer to the proper authorities. I always recommend that home owners check all their washing machines prior to entry upon the property for any metallic objects or any objects that can be formed or sculpted into a blade or sharp object.


Sorry, I couldn't resist.

Wow!!! After going back and reading all the postings, I'd just throw the washer to the curb and get a toploader. Let's see, you are going to have porch swing springs added to it, Isolation pads under it, a two ton piece of steel bolted to the floor with cattle pads, foam and concrete on top of that and God knows what else has been suggested. THis sounds like the grounds for a new show on Discovery Channel...Extreme Home Repairs

I'd do a search on the net to see what most people have done to solve the problem. Here is one site that has Bosch machines with problems and fixes http://www.fixya.com/support/bosch/washing_machines