Water and 220v

[bannerd]

We're in the middle of building our new home and I went to our local hardware store and picked up quite a bit of electric conduit (1000ft). Now, the 220 actually goes to a spring house where we have a deep well pump that pumps water up to our house. There is a small stream in the way where the 220v goes over that for many reasons (came like this when we bought the property with the trailer). My thought was to bury the conduit under the stream and hopefully run this 220v underground. I'm second guessing this now because since the spring house pours water into this stream and if water somehow got into that conduit and somehow there was a jacket breach in the line.. electric would travel in the water into our spring house and up to our house? Or does the law of physics tell us differently? There is no ground rod that I see around the spring box but the main panel is grounded.

 

[Warrenator]

Many underground conduits get flooded with water. The conduit is to protect the wire from damage, not water. The wire insulation should be undamaged, not nicked, and then you will be OK.

 

[tyme2par4]

The bigger question is will DES let you dig under the spring? Disturbing any water way usually requires permits and many other special considerations.

 

[theoldwizard1]

They do make GFCI breakers for 240V. This is what you want,

 

[TractorJeff]

If you have a submersible pump, the wires run down into the water. You don't lose sleep over them getting wet? Then don't worry about the wire in the conduit getting wet.

Only mistake I see is that you posted it on the Internet where someone could turn you in to the DEC. (Unless they change their name in the past 20yrs).
I would have been installing this change, this coming Holiday weekend without even my neighbors knowing what I am up to!

 

[thewatusi]

Every buried conduit is filled with water due to condensation. Use appropriate outdoor rated wire or cable and you'll be good to go.

 

[Zeke]

They do make GFCI breakers for 240V. This is what you want,

Yes, they do. Spas are hooked you with them.

 

[ard]

What is it that you are actually trying ti accomplish? Conduit and "220" run from the new home to the existing well house? And you have to cross a stream?

You are burying this, right? Trench across the stream, lay the pipe, bury it in mud.

My submersible well pump is NOT on a GFCI- should it be? Why?

 

[Bert_]

They do make GFCI breakers for 240V. This is what you want,

I would not GFCI this. There is no requirement to do so and you will probably have all sorts of nuisance tripping issues even if there is no real problems.

 

[PhysicsDude]

I've pulled cable through many underground conduits in my day.. including many 200-2000 amp services.. Almost every conduit was filled with water by the time we put wire in it.

I once worked in a large building on a college campus which had several electrical service lines come into to the side of their (deep) basement through LB's. They kept buckets under the LB's because water would drip out of them every time it rained.

No need to worry about running 240V under the stream as long as you have the appropriate permits and means to do so.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

I'd have it bored under it myself.

 

[James-W]

I could be wrong but I doubt he will get permission to do this. I know around here they are are pretty **** about doing ANYTHING concerning waterways, to include rivers, streams and lakes. For example, a buddy of mine owns a farm and one part of his farm borders a river. He had three trees along the bank that had fallen into the river and he wanted to pull them out. He contacted the DNR and they told him he can't pull them out of the river, he has to leave them there. They said it was natural habitat for fish.

 

[Warrenator]

Better to beg for forgiveness than ask for permission.

 

[American Locomotive]

Better to beg for forgiveness than ask for permission.

I can assure you that your local EPA/DEM/Whatever will not give you forgiveness. They'll fine you until you're just about bankrupt, and then make you pay for it to be put back the way it was before.

When doing anything involving streams, rivers, waterways, wetlands, etc.. ALWAYS contact your local environmental regulators. Waterways are one of those things that just because it's on your property, doesn't mean you can actually mess with it.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

I can assure you that your local EPA/DEM/Whatever will not give you forgiveness. They'll fine you until you're just about bankrupt, and then make you pay for it to be put back the way it was before.

When doing anything involving streams, rivers, waterways, wetlands, etc.. ALWAYS contact your local environmental regulators. Waterways are one of those things that just because it's on your property, doesn't mean you can actually mess with it.

Bore under it,no affect on the water way.

 

[homebuilt burner]

Zmax has the right idea. Bore under it sleeve it and move on.

James W: I hate to be political but the dnr here is just about closed for good(budget cuts is leaving no one working)

 

[American Locomotive]

Bore under it,no affect on the water way.

The stream loses water to the ground below, into the local aquifer. That same aquifer is also part of any wetlands surrounding the stream or in the area. Boring underneath the stream may compromise the stream bed, potentially pollute the aquifer or otherwise do something the local hydrology or geology.

Disturbing any of that in an unapproved manner could lead to fines or even jail time. Fines for disturbing wetlands can reach into the millions of dollars. If that same aquifer and stream feeds your neighbors property, and your boring pollutes the water somehow, it could even open you up to lawsuits from neighboring properties for contaminating their water.

 

[ard]

The stream loses water to the ground below, into the local aquifer. That same aquifer is also part of any wetlands surrounding the stream or in the area. Boring underneath the stream may compromise the stream bed, potentially pollute the aquifer or otherwise do something the local hydrology or geology.

Disturbing any of that in an unapproved manner could lead to fines or even jail time. Fines for disturbing wetlands can reach into the millions of dollars. If that same aquifer and stream feeds your neighbors property, and your boring pollutes the water somehow, it could even open you up to lawsuits from neighboring properties for contaminating their water.

Is this really viable advice?

Between the hydrology study, wetlands study, environmental impact study, endangered species study, native peoples artifact studies this request will trigger, he would be better off installing a small power plant.

And I like to think I tend to side with environmentalists

 

[James-W]

James W: I hate to be political but the dnr here is just about closed for good(budget cuts is leaving no one working)

I had heard they were hit with budget cuts, but I was not aware they were about to close up shop.

 

[American Locomotive]

Is this really viable advice?

Between the hydrology study, wetlands study, environmental impact study, endangered species study, native peoples artifact studies this request will trigger, he would be better off installing a small power plant.

And I like to think I tend to side with environmentalists

In most cases, it's really not that big of deal. Some guy will come to the property and look at what you're trying to do. They may ask to submit a formal drawing/plan of the proposed changes. Then you just pay a fee and they give it a stamp of approval.

Of course, you could always go over the stream too.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

The stream loses water to the ground below, into the local aquifer. That same aquifer is also part of any wetlands surrounding the stream or in the area. Boring underneath the stream may compromise the stream bed, potentially pollute the aquifer or otherwise do something the local hydrology or geology.

Disturbing any of that in an unapproved manner could lead to fines or even jail time. Fines for disturbing wetlands can reach into the millions of dollars. If that same aquifer and stream feeds your neighbors property, and your boring pollutes the water somehow, it could even open you up to lawsuits from neighboring properties for contaminating their water.

Have you ever done any directional boring or had it done? They could punch a hole 10' deep below that and not have any affect under it.
We bored under the Elkhorn river here in nebraska around 25 years ago with a bore shot they said was impossible.
We got the job done,and amazingly the river is still running.

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

Is this really viable advice?

Between the hydrology study, wetlands study, environmental impact study, endangered species study, native peoples artifact studies this request will trigger, he would be better off installing a small power plant.

And I like to think I tend to side with environmentalists

Call a boring co and ask them what they say about it,you guys,are,really over thinking things.

 

[American Locomotive]

Have you ever done any directional boring or had it done? They could punch a hole 10' deep below that and not have any affect under it.
We bored under the Elkhorn river here in nebraska around 25 years ago with a bore shot they said was impossible.
We got the job done,and amazingly the river is still running.

My point is to call someome first before you mess with rivers and wetlands. An angry DEM Officer could easily whack you with fines for both drilling under a river and disturbing wetlands.

 

[James-W]

My point is to call someone first before you mess with rivers and wetlands. An angry DEM Officer could easily whack you with fines for both drilling under a river and disturbing wetlands.

I agree wholeheartedly, when it comes to waterways and wetlands, the laws can be quite ****. Unless you have written permission it is best to not do anything.

Personally, I don't care what the opening poster does because I don't see any real harm he would be doing. But I am not the one with the authority to give permission to do these things. The people who are in a position to grant permission are not always as accommodating as I am, they seem to have their own set of rules to go by. So I agree that it is best to get permission before proceeding.

 

[TractorJeff]

Again, see my comment on this in Post 5!
LOL!

 

[Norcal]

There is a farmer north of me who they are trying to whack him for over 2 million in fines for a wetlands violation.

 

[Junkman]

I could be wrong but I doubt he will get permission to do this. I know around here they are are pretty **** about doing ANYTHING concerning waterways, to include rivers, streams and lakes. For example, a buddy of mine owns a farm and one part of his farm borders a river. He had three trees along the bank that had fallen into the river and he wanted to pull them out. He contacted the DNR and they told him he can't pull them out of the river, he has to leave them there. They said it was natural habitat for fish.

A friend has a tree that overhangs the lake, and fills the lake every fall with lots of leaves. He wanted to remove the tree, because it is rotting from the inside out. He was told that he couldn't remove the tree, since it provides shade for the fish. When it finally falls, if it is during the summer, there are going to be a lot of unhappy people, because it is going to take out a few boats that will be in its way. Even though the tree is on his property, the town environmental people won't allow him to remove the tree. Who is going to be responsible for the damage that the rotten tree causes? In most states, if you have a rotten tree on your property, and you know it is rotten, and you don't remove it, you are responsible for your the damage that the tree does to neighbors.

 

[American Locomotive]

A lot of the U.S's weird water rules are related to riparian rights. If removing a tree reduces the amount of fish in the lake, you may be "depriving" your neighbors of fish that they are entitled to.

As for the liability of the tree falling? I'd just get a signed and notarized letter from the town saying you can't remove the tree. That way it's on them.