Water Heater Options

[RZ Guy]

I'm on my third or fourth water heater since we bought this house new in 96. The girls that take FOREVER showers have noticed lack of hot water toward the end of their FOREVER showers. Yesterday after dinner cleanup the hot got cold. I checked and the gas water heater had shut off. It turned back on just fine and still on this morning. I installed it 10/16 so more than likely it's dying.

My options:

1. Go buy another disposable unit at HD or Lowes and install it myself like last time. Cheapest option and it will fail in 6-8 years. Yes I have 2 straps and the bonding wires and the drain pan.

2. Install a heat pump unit. This would be done by a pro. The neighbor recently had one installed and apparently they are more efficient but require a 30 amp dedicated circuit (hence installed by a pro). I'll go check out his installation today. He texted and it was 2350 installed. Not bad. But this uses a tank and I would think would fail in 6-8 years same as standard gas unit.

3. On demand system. No tank. No idea of cost. No idea (yet) if these last longer and work properly.

4. No water heater. Heat a large pan of water on the stove and give it to the FOREVER shower people so they will take shorter showers. Or sun shower bags like camping set up in the back yard in a little shower tent. This way the lawn gets a bit of water...

Any thoughts on this and real world experience with option 2 or 3? #4 probably won't fly.

 

[housewolf]

Unless the tank is leaking, there’s really no need to replace a WH. All the components are serviceable/replacable.

Im a (commercial) plumber and never really bought into the marketing for the on demand heaters but they do serve a share of the market well. Those needing the space, and those needing an “endless supply” of HW. I have one in my house because I didn’t want to give up the space. The only issue I have with mine is the dishwasher and clothes washer. When either of those run the WH is on/off/on/off/… I can hear it and it’s annoying. Other than that I love it. They should be flushed annually with vinegar but it’s a simple process than most any homeowner can do with a $40 pump. My brother, also a plumber, installs a lot of these and says if maintained they can last 20 years. Retro fitting an on demand will involve changing the roof jack and possibly modifying your gas pipe. It could get expensive.

I have no experience with the heat pump but as I understand them, they are very efficient, but like you said you have the tank issue and the cost of replacing it that often is something to consider.

ETA: I would Ask my neighbors if they’re experiencing the same issues with their WH tanks. If they are, and you intend to stay in the house long term, water treatment may be something worth looking into.

Good luck!

 

[Renegade1LI]

I just bought a Rheem hybrid, can't wait to install it. I think you need to get your water sampled, your ph may be off. Just like a pool if you keep the water tested and treated your equipment will last a lot longer. I'm replacing a water heater that is 20 years old, with no issues but the water tests perfect. There's no down side to testing your water, i do it every year.

 

[wssix99]

Unless the tank is leaking, there’s really no need to replace a WH. All the components are serviceable/replacable.

^This. No matter what you get, the unit is going to require regular service. There is no fire-and-forget option.

I have a tankless water heater and its great. However, it requires the maximum amount of service for any of these options. There are 50 parts in the thing that regularly fail, so I keep a cabinet of them on-hand at all times because I can't afford to be without hot water for 2-3 days while I wait for parts to be set to me by FedEx.

For the grief you go through, you should be able to keep spare thermostats and heating elements on-hand for your current water heater. When they go out, just pop on a new part and go.

 

[finn]

Just install another gas unit.

The “forever shower” girls will be off to college in another 8 years, so you probably need one or two more replacements in your lifetime.

I have a hybrid heat pump, but am under no illusion that it’s a twenty year lifespan unit.

 

[tjpavlov]

I have a tankless Rinnai and couldn't be happier. As noted above, you do need to do an annual maintenance, but it really isn't hard. You can buy a little kit on Amazon for around $100 that gives you a bucket, the solution, pump and hoses.

I think that my unit cost around $4,000 installed, but I received a rebate from the gas company for something like $900.

One thing to consider is that the tankless draws way more gas (199,000 btu vs. 50,000 for our old tank model), so you may need to upgrade your meter.

Another thing is that installing a tankless is a bigger job--you likely won't want to do it if you wait for your tank unit to fail.

 

[jrsavoie]

I have a water heater thread here someplace. Mine is a 1994 and we got away with replacing the lower element.

Check with your electric and gas companies, they may offer good water heaters at a reasonable price.

I believe the units sold through the utilities are of better quality.

Our 80 gallon electric had an average life span of 28 years.

And it's hard to guess how many of those could have got more years with an element or thermostat

 

[CombatNinja]

RZ Guy, I'm getting the sense from your post that you don't really do anything to maintain the water heater? If that's the case and getting a new one every 7 years or so is not too much of a bother, just keep doing it I guess. Unless your water is exceptionally hard where you live, a water heater should last 10+ years at the low end. I've installed some over the years and with simple annual maintenance, they are still fine 20+ years later.

 

[kwb]

Don't be fooled by efficiency claims if your water heater is in heated space. Heat lost from the water tank just helps keep the space warm lowering demand of your furnace/primary heat source. If it is in an unheated garage, it helps keep the chill down a bit as well.

Nobody should be taking showers that kills a tank, even 2-3 showers back to back should be fine. Think of the tank as a worst case timer, if you had a tankless that long shower would be even longer.

I am also in the no maintenance camp, 7-10yrs and a couple hours to replace it when you need to or 1-2hrs every year to make it last 2x as long.... my time is worth something.

 

[Jinks]

I've had nearly 80 years with a lot of water heaters. Never replaced one because the tank was leaking. I've cleaned a lot of sediment out of the bottoms, replaced an element or two, & things like that. Back in 2006 we were finishing a total remodel of our current home. I had a solar water heater installed. 80 gal. tank with a single electric element. A solar panel on the roof & a small pump circulate & heat more water than we can use. On extended periods without a lot of sun the electric element does some heating. The electric is set to 120 deg. but the solar heats to about 140. I've had a couple valves on the roof leak, but nothing major. The system is now over 16 years old. Supplies all the water we can use at less cost then electric or gas.

 

[Mfaz28]

Check out a Rheem Marathon. We’ve had one a couple of years. No problems, but only time will tell. definitely worth a look.

 

[RZ Guy]

Thanks a bunch for the replies.

Rheem Marathon never heard of it and quickly looked at it. I'll look some more but it looks to be electric only?

After spending my indoor bicycle time watching YouTube videos of water heaters, I think I am set on the heat pump model. I don't think I want to do the instant no tank gas type because there will be other upgrades required (larger gas supply pipe) AND we are supposed to be getting away from gas. AND I will be looking at getting solar panels sometime soon so heat pump electric seems like the best choice.

I looked at my neighbors install of the heat pump type and it looks kind of like a traditional water heater. He too had short tank life on water heaters but a little better than ours. This is his third but I have been running a water softener pretty much the whole time we have lived here. That may shorten tank life a bit. On my second one of those also.

The current water heater I have drained a couple of times. I never got any sediment draining out of it though. Never changed the anode rod in any of them. It is two or three months past its six month warranty. I may call them just for fun.

I'm not 100% convinced it needs replacement ASAP but that could change at any moment. It's not leaking. I think this is the one that I replaced the burner unit on warranty many years ago. I'm going to have the plumber that did the neighbors install swing by soon and give me quotes for replacement.

I'll report back here if and when there are any changes made.

 

[johninct]

#4 would be best.

 

[BoostAddiction]

Just a data point, but I have had a lot of good experience with the Rhem hybrid heaters run in heat pump mode only. Plenty of water, a decent recovery time, and the ability to use the resistance heater when you are expecting a horde of teenagers over the weekend.

 

[CombatNinja]

Pro tip: eliminate the water softener and those "long showers" will get a lot shorter. Hard water will wreak havoc with their hair. Ask me how I know....

 

[K'ledgeBldr]

It’s probably just a “recovery” issue. Those “forever showers” are just getting longer.

The only way to lessen the recovery rate is to supply a greater amount. Easiest way- add another heater!

Once the heavy users are gone and on their own- you just shut it down, turn off the supply and exit. Going the other route (installing a LARGER w/h)- just becomes a fossil fuel over user because you don’t have that much demand.

 

[nadogail]

Make your next Water Heater the largest capacity that will fit your needs.

 

[rharman]

You mentioned you never replaced the anode. That can kill a WH tank. I replace mine every two years. We do have a water softener and that exacerbates the wear on the anode.

I do a mini drain every 3-4 months (pretty random) to get the sediment out. I installed a tee and ball valve with a hose bib fitting on mine. I keep a ~15' hose handy and just hook it up and turn the valve. Or, I can slide a Homer bucket under it and get hot water for washing stuff outdoors. Easy.

 

[MAD]

Bumping the the tank temperature up a few degrees is the easiest way to get more hot water from your current water heater If you have some headroom before you get to dangerous scolding temperatures at your fixtures. A tank booster mixing valve would let you run the tank even hotter safely.

 

[MAD]

I installed a Rheem hybrid water heater this past August so I wouldn't have to run my oil fired boiler outside of the heating season just for domestic hot water. The compressor on the first one I got was dead on arrival which didn't inspire great confidence. The worst part about it was that these hybrids are heavy! Sliding it down the steps through my bulkhead in the box/foam was not bad but getting the defective one back up was a *****. Once I got the replacement installed I was very happy, especially with the way it cooled and dehumidified my basement.

Now though, I'm waiting for thermistors which Rheem is sending me under warranty. The conventional electric elements work but the heat pump shuts down with an error code after running for 12-15 min. Now I'm back to running the domestic hot water from my boiler so I won't have to run the resistance elements. I hope the thermistors fix it. I'm a die-hard D.I.Y. guy, but I will be taking advantage of the labor warranty if the whole unit needs to be swapped.

 

[firebirdparts]

Learn to fix stuff? That’s my preference.

 

[brooktre]

I put in a hybrid in 2013, replacing an all electric. It has worked well and reduced my electric bills. I don’t know about now, but when I bought there were rebates that brought the cost down from $1000 to about $600. With the savings on electric, it paid for itself within a few years. I’ve had a couple of parts go bad, but it has a 10 year warranty so they were covered.

I installed it myself and it was straightforward. A couple of things to think about. You need to be able to install a drain line for the heat pump. In my case there was no drain available so I had to drain it to the outside (through a concrete block wall). The unit needs some room to provide sufficient air to exchange heat. So a closet may not work without some modifications. Also as was mentioned, the unit will cool the area where it is installed. In my case it cools my garage off so it helps in the summer. In the winter, my oil fired heater is in the same area so the garage is still warm, but not quite as warm as before.

 

[mmb617]

I always go with your option #1, buy a cheap gas unit and install it myself. I know it's only good for 8-10 years but I have it in the basement with concrete floors and drains so nothing gets ruined if it starts leaking.

I have a 40 gallon unit and with only two of us we can shower back to back and never run out of hot water even though the dishwasher is usually also running while we shower. But then we consider 5-7 minutes to be plenty long enough for a shower.

If I had household members who were taking forever showers that ran them out of hot water I'd simply tell them to take shorter showers. I'd certainly take that road with the kids although it might be a little harder sell if it's the wife.

 

[American Locomotive]

I don't understand. You're saying the burner turned off, so you want to replace the entire water heater? Just put a new thermocouple in it, and you'll more than likely be set.

Now though, I'm waiting for thermistors which Rheem is sending me under warranty. The conventional electric elements work but the heat pump shuts down with an error code after running for 12-15 min.

The thermistors are the only major dissapointment about the Rheem Hybrid. Mine had been going strong for 2 years, but I had to change the evap thermistor twice. I can't get mad at it, as it's already paid for itself 2x over. Luckily they only take 15 minutes to change and only cost $5 (they'll send them to you free if you call). They told me they are switching suppliers for the the thermistors and have an updated part number.

I'd order a spare thermistor, btw.

 

[Copymutt]

Hard water here, so tankless is a no go. In floor 40 gallon tank on NG, 26 yrs. old and good.
The 50 gallon electric in the house lasts 10/12 yrs.
Elec. provider offers a rebate on expensive Marathon. NG price just tripled.

 

[HogDude]

Just a couple of questions.

• Do you have an expansion tank?
• Have you replaced the anode?

Not necessarily a cure all but they have greatly improved my WH life/replacement cycle. Learned this through a Lowe’s master plumber (contractor) when my current unit was installed.
I’ve had softened water since home was built in 1999.

 

[RZ Guy]

I don't understand. You're saying the burner turned off, so you want to replace the entire water heater? Just put a new thermocouple in it, and you'll more than likely be set.



The thermistors are the only major dissapointment about the Rheem Hybrid. Mine had been going strong for 2 years, but I had to change the evap thermistor twice. I can't get mad at it, as it's already paid for itself 2x over. Luckily they only take 15 minutes to change and only cost $5 (they'll send them to you free if you call). They told me they are switching suppliers for the the thermistors and have an updated part number.

I'd order a spare thermistor, btw.

Yes the burner turned off. But additionally the running out of hot water symptom may be representative of the thing dying. Since we have a history of short WH life I don't want to spend much time troubleshooting and repairing only to have short term fixes. I do like your idea of changing the thermocouple. I may do that. So far after relighting and turning the heat up one notch on it everything is working as it should. So far.

 

[RZ Guy]

Just a couple of questions.

• Do you have an expansion tank?
• Have you replaced the anode?

Not necessarily a cure all but they have greatly improved my WH life/replacement cycle. Learned this through a Lowe’s master plumber (contractor) when my current unit was installed.
I’ve had softened water since home was built in 1999.

No expansion tank. Have not replaced anode.

I'll go on youtube and look but assuming to replace the anode
>turn off gas
>release pressure
>r&r anode

If there is little room at the top can the anode be partially pulled, bend it, pull it out more, bend it, you get the idea? I have seen segmented anode replacements that can be fitted, i.e., kind of chain style that can be fed in rather than one long piece.

Edit: Plenty of segmented rods on amazon for around $30.

 

[American Locomotive]

Yes the burner turned off. But additionally the running out of hot water symptom may be representative of the thing dying. Since we have a history of short WH life I don't want to spend much time troubleshooting and repairing only to have short term fixes. I do like your idea of changing the thermocouple. I may do that. So far after relighting and turning the heat up one notch on it everything is working as it should. So far.

There is nothing to a gas water heater. It's a tank with a burner. Throw a thermocouple in it and be on your way. If it one of the ones with the white Honeywell gas valve (blinking red light style), sometimes those have been known to be problematic.

 

[Dakotadadv8]

If you have gas buy a Rheem 40 gallon gas unit from HD, replace them every 10 years. $500 over 10 years not too bad, easier to have same dimensions as original for easy installation by Pro or DIY.

 

[nadogail]

I have found that Shark Byte fittings and flex hoses have made water heater replacement much quicker and easier.

I also appreciate the fact that I don’t have to worry about starting a fire while soldering the fittings.

 

[MAD]

The thermistors are the only major dissapointment about the Rheem Hybrid............ They told me they are switching suppliers for the the thermistors and have an updated part number.

It will be interesting to see if the parts they send me are different than the originals. I think the suction thermistor may be the culprit for my issue, but they are sending the evaporator and discharge thermistor as well (all the same part#). It seems unlikely that all three failed. I plan to ohm test all three at room temp and in an ice water bath to see if it is worth saving any as spares. If the part number is different though, I will also get a new one to keep on hand. Sending all three thermistors seems like it may be a tacit acknowledgement that the originals are crappy.

 

[CombatNinja]

Don't worry too much about clearance for getting the anode rod out. You've got a water softener and haven't changed it in 7 years. There ain't gonna be a whole lot of rod left. In all seriousness, they are pretty easy to bend.

I like to do a tank drain at the same time I change my rod. Obviously, you have to shut off the water supply to the tank first. Helps to have a DEEP socket and a breaker bar or impact gun. Sometimes they are torqued on really, really tight (esp. after 7 years of corrosion).

 

[Garcky]

I'm on my third or fourth water heater since we bought this house new in 96. The girls that take FOREVER showers have noticed lack of hot water toward the end of their FOREVER showers. Yesterday after dinner cleanup the hot got cold. I checked and the gas water heater had shut off. It turned back on just fine and still on this morning. I installed it 10/16 so more than likely it's dying.

My options:

1. Go buy another disposable unit at HD or Lowes and install it myself like last time. Cheapest option and it will fail in 6-8 years. Yes I have 2 straps and the bonding wires and the drain pan.

2. Install a heat pump unit. This would be done by a pro. The neighbor recently had one installed and apparently they are more efficient but require a 30 amp dedicated circuit (hence installed by a pro). I'll go check out his installation today. He texted and it was 2350 installed. Not bad. But this uses a tank and I would think would fail in 6-8 years same as standard gas unit.

3. On demand system. No tank. No idea of cost. No idea (yet) if these last longer and work properly.

4. No water heater. Heat a large pan of water on the stove and give it to the FOREVER shower people so they will take shorter showers. Or sun shower bags like camping set up in the back yard in a little shower tent. This way the lawn gets a bit of water...

Any thoughts on this and real world experience with option 2 or 3? #4 probably won't fly.

Marry those daughters off ASAP!

 

[larry4406]

My one daughter takes insanely long showers...

I have given up trying to reign it in. I even threatened to put the bathroom lights on a timer with max 20 minutes illumination (wife vetoed that).

Years ago, there use to be this TV evangelist show called "The Hour of Power". I've high-jacked this and call it "The Hour of Shower"!

 

[aandpdan]

You should occasionally drain the water heater to clear out any sediment.

But, if you have a gas water heater and want to replace it with a hybrid or electric? Don't. The recovery time is almost twice that of the gas water heater.

How about reducing the flow on the shower? What is the current shower heads GPM?

 

[rharman]

No expansion tank. Have not replaced anode.

I'll go on youtube and look but assuming to replace the anode
>turn off gas
>release pressure
>r&r anode

If there is little room at the top can the anode be partially pulled, bend it, pull it out more, bend it, you get the idea? I have seen segmented anode replacements that can be fitted, i.e., kind of chain style that can be fed in rather than one long piece.

Edit: Plenty of segmented rods on amazon for around $30.

No need to turn off the gas. Turn off the inlet water. Drain a bit of the tank. Swap out the anode.

I have very little headroom on mine. I pulled out the original anode and bent it along the way to clear the ceiling. As some said, you'll likely have nothing left of the original at this point.
I've used the Blue Lightning magnesium segmented rods since. They say there is a possibility of getting some odor or taste from them. Fortunately, I have not had that issue.

I will tell you that that sucker is going to be really tightly cranked down. I used my 1/2" electric impact the first time around but just a breaker bar since.

 

[flat350]

If you want to spend some money look at the A.O. Smith Cyclone heaters, 50 gallon heaters that recover 86 to 116 gallons per hour at a 100 deg rise.

 

[thammel]

1) You can extend water heater life by changing the anode rods every year or two.
2) Years ago when my girls were teens I had the hour long shower problem. Here's what I did: Installed a gate valve to the hot water line to their show and throttled it back to reduce flow rate. They never knew about the valve and wondered why the water flow wasn't so good any more. Solved that problem!! LOL!

 

[beemerphile]

I have a tankless Rinnai and couldn't be happier.

^THIS^. I had one at a previous house for a dozen years and it was great on both ends of the demand stream - if I want to sooth my arthritic frame in a long hot shower, it don't run out of HW. If I take off for a couple of weeks and don't need any HW, it uses zero.zero gas.

I paid $1,100 for the last one (HE condensing) on my current build and installed it myself...