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Water Heater Question

caper150

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Nov 20, 2007
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Mantorville MN
I have a question on if I have the right water heater for my in floor heat system. I have a 40 gallon tank that I wa told would be fine to run my system but since I hooked it up 2 weeks ago it just doesn't seem like it's getting hot enough. I spoke with my maintence guy at work and he seems to think it doesn't have enough BTU's, I looked at the heater itself and cannot find any where on it where it says what the BTU's are, just that each element is 4500 watts. A couple of other guys at work have the same size tank and have no problems, is there any way to tell if this is ok or am I going to need to get a bigger tank.:confused:
 
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thammel

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Oct 3, 2005
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Maryland
I'll try and help a bit. First of all, if there are two heating elements at 4500 watts each then that's 9000 watts. Since one watt = 3.413 btu/hr, that means that the capacity is about 30000 btu/hr. This is not a lot. but what really is of most importance is the size of your garage and the heat losses. If it were PERFECTLY insulated, then you could heat it with 10 watts. Of course, nothing is perfectly insulated so you should do some heat loss calculations or have someone else do them.

Are the walls and celing insulated? Do you have insulated garage doors? Is everything weathertight with minimal air leaks? Did you put down at least 2" of insulation under the pex? There's a large difference in the heat source requirements between heating a 20 x 20 vs a 30 x 40, so size definitely matters in this case.

Good luck!
Tom
 

JebNY

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Feb 22, 2007
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Lost State of Franklin
What do you have your tank temperature set at? I use a 40 to heat out house and when I had the temperature set at 110 it would not heat when it got below about 28 degrees. I now run it 140 degrees and have no problems. I still crank it back spring and fall when I don't need as much heat so I don't over shoot.

Jeb
 

VHF

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Oct 27, 2008
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NW Wisconsin
Most electric water heaters come with the elements interlocked so the top and bottom never operate at the same time--this keeps the current draw low for houses with limited electric service. It can be wired with #10 wire and a 30A breaker. The top element has priority--when it is satisfied, then the bottom element is given a chance to operate. This works fine for making domestic hot water as long as you don't take too many back-to-back showers. But with only one 4,500 element operating at a time you are only generating about 15,000 BTUs/hr.

It is generally permissible to rewire the water heater for simultaneous operation so you are getting the full 9,000 watts (30,000 BTUs/hr.) If you remove the top access cover (with the power off, of course!) you will see that one of the two wires feeding down to the lower element comes off an "extra" screw terminal on the upper thermostat. This wire needs to be relocated so it is connected to a terminal that is not controlled by the uper thermostat in order to allow the lower element to operate independently. However, MAKE SURE not to bypass the thermal cutout--that's the part with the red reset button right above the upper thermostat--it still needs to be able to cut power to both elements if the tank overheats >180F*.

Note that the water heater will now be drawing 38A when both elements are operating, so you may need to upgrade your wiring to unit. To keep circuit loading at 80% (required because heating is a continuous load), you should use a 50A breaker with #6 wire. (8# might be permissible if it is a short run to the panel... NEC gurus please advise!)

That may or may not be enough to heat your garage, doubling the BTU/hr output of the heater will certainly help!

*Mythbusters experimented with an electric hot water heaters by disabling & bypassing all the thermostats and safety devices. The bottom blew out it went up like a rocket through the roof maybe 50' in the air while the steam "explosion" from the ruptured tank demolished the shed it was in. Very impressive... and very important not to inadvertently bypass the thermal cutout when rewiring a water heater!!!
 

tdkkart

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I have a 16x30 shop with the same 40 gallon heater. I'm in my first couple months of use, the system was there whan I bought the property, so I can only tell you about my experience so far. BTW, my heater is set so the temp at the top of the tank is approx. 110*. I believe it's wired so that only one element runs at a time.

What I have found is that it will maintain temperature fine, but it has a hard time gaining temp. If the room starts at 60*, with the thermostat set at 60*, in 20-30* outside temps the system will run periodically for 5-10 minutes at a time. I'm typically in the shop for 2-3hrs each morning, with the outside temp at 30* I might hear the pump come on once or twice in those 2-3hrs. In these types of cycles the temp in the heater will barely drop enough to cycle the elements on, and then only for a short time, just long enough to reheat the tank slightly.
I've been studying the way the system works, and taking temp readings with an infrared temp gun.

Twice, once on purpose and once by accident, I've had to "rebuild" my temp by 6-8*.
When you try to do this is when you run into trouble. The system cycles on and will raise the temperature about 2*. By then the water in the heater has cooled so far that the heating elements can't heat fast enough to maintain the temp.

The temp at the output starts dropping. Eventually the elements can only heat fast enough to maintain 70*-75* or so going out to the floor loops, which drops your temp gains considerably since the floor temp seems to have to be about 65* to maintain 60* air temp.

At this point you are burning alot of electricity to try to do your heating, you're basically taking 3 steps forward and 2 steps back, just spinning your wheels and going nowhere quickly. The temp will come up eventually, but it's gonna take a long while. You simply are not putting enough BTU's into the floor.

What to do??

If able, replace the heater with one of the instant demand heaters from somebody like Siesco(sp??), or Hydro Shark. These heaters are capable of taking 50ish degree water in and delivering 120*+ output continuously. They "store" no hot water so you're not heating anything when you don't need it. Contact the manufacturer for the correct size to fit your needs. These heaters start in the $5-600 range.

If you can't swing a new heater, try a couple other things.

#1 start your heating season before the slab temp gets too low. It appears that my floor needs to be approx 64ish* to maintain 60* air temp. Maker it alot easier on the system and start your system in the fall before the temp gets below your desired room temp. Maintaining is much easier than adding.

#2 Remeber what I said about being able to gain approx. 2* before the tank temp started dropping. Do not try to gain any more than that in one session. Bump the T-stat up 2*, let the system run till the pump shuts off, and the water heater gains it's temp back. If possible leave it at this setting overnight so everything equalizes, and then bump it another 2* tomorrow. I believe this is going to be much more efficient.

#3 By now you've probably realized that the one thing you cannot do with a slab system is to move the temp up and down when you are in and out of the shop. Set it at one temp and leave it.
 

tdkkart

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Eastern Iowa
Now I see from your older posts you're garage is 32x40 and you're in Minnesota.
I think you're gonna have to take a serious look at replacing that heater with something else, I don't think you have a prayer of it being able to keep up with that much square footage in the dead of winter.
 
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caper150

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Mantorville MN
Thats for the info guys, looks like I should have done more reasearch.I mean it's not cold in there but not like I think it should be, the wall are insulated but the ceiling isn't, it's just plastic, till I get the sheetrock, I plan on doing blown in for the ceiling with green fiber blown in. I was thinking about cycling on and off the system for a bit to see if I can get the water hot enough in the floor so that when it gets back to the tank it would keep up, right now it is cool and seems like it runs constantly.
 

tdkkart

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Get the insulation in, sooner rather than later, you're ******* away $$$ like you wouldn't believe. Your electric bill is gonna scare the **** out of you.
Also, make sure you have a vehicle or 2 or some other equipment parked in there, radiant heats the objects in the room, not the air, so the more you have in there the more heat you will retain.
One you get insulated you MAY have a chance of maintaining temp in there.
 
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Jay H 237

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Torrington, CT
Heat rises, the insulation in the roof of a structure is the most important. Having the walls insulated helps but most of your heat you're trying to keep in there is going out the roof.

Like mentioned, I woudn't mess with the heating system until you get the insulation in the major heat loss area, the roof.
 

Jaguar Fan

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Park City for Ski Season; Las Vegas for Poker Seas
For the long term life of your water heater, take a look at the information on http://waterheaterrescue.com. Change out the sacrificial anode every couple of years as needed and drain a few gallons of water to flush out sediment from the heater each month or so. A little preventative maintenance goes a long way.

Separately, for my house, I have two 40 gal water heaters in series: the output of the first heater goes to the input of the second. When I have guests staying, I fire up the first heater; when I don't have guests, I've found I can make do by turning off one heater and just living on the other.
 
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caper150

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Mantorville MN
Heres a thought, I have a couple of 56 industrial fans in the ceiling, do you think by having them on it will help keep the heat down. I know I need the insulation in the ceiling it's $$ right now, just like everyone else . I think I'll just shut it off when I'm not planning on working out there. There is plenty of stuff in there the body and frame for my 65 Galaxie and if time allows before too much snow my 66 Galaxie will go in as well.
 

JCByrd24

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Bath, ME
Read my post here about the use of water heaters for garage heating...

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=24632

without insulation the capacity is going to be well under the heat loss of the garage. Even with insulation it probably will be and the tank size won't make a difference.

I'd turn it off until you insulate because your electric bill is going to be outrageous. After you insulate you can just see if it will keep up enough, if not, go to a tankless with higher output.
 

tdkkart

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Quick note, see my other post for specifics.
I was in the shop this morning, 33* outside temp, 60* on the thermostat, The system switched on, the pump ran for only 6 minutes to satisfy the thermostat. The top element in the water heater came on, not sure how long it ran.
 
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