Water Heater

[Jsf721]

Can someone school me on on demand water heaters (Tankless)? I currently have a 48 gallon AO smith high recovery tank that got flooded. I was able to get it re-lit and functioning however I see some pitting on the "manifold" and I realize this is not going to be an immediate danger, I will be replacing this Unit as I am at the point in my life where avoiding future aggrivation by proper planning is looking like a very good idea to me.

Besides the damage, this water heater never performed as advertised. I was told that it would make hot water to fulfuil the household needs. If I run 2 showers at once you have about 3-6 minutes before it runs cold. If we take 3 consecutive showers (Family of 4) the 4th person (if not the 3rd) gets screwed.

I spoke to a few plumbing contractors and what is was told is:

1. Tankless systems are too new to have any track record so if you want one, I can install one but the tanks are proven.

2. Tankless systems require a degree in electronics to fix so avoid them although they are the most efficient.

3. Move to a 75 Gallon AO Smith hi recovery tank and you will be fine.

4. Go to a tankless system, you will have continuous hot water, it will be off the floor (wall mounted) and it is far more efficient so it will save you $.


I like the idea of freeing up space in my already crowded mechanical room, I like the idea of it being off the floor so that I won't have to deal with it again in the case of a future flood. The fact that it is more efficient is also a plus.

the price is a little higher but if it is better I would go for it.

Thanks for the advise.

 

[ddawg16]

I did a lot of research into the systems......

Basically, if you have gas, the extra cost of the gas tankless takes a long time for payback....typically 15-20 years. By then, your unit is about done. Additionally, the units require more maint....and you have to look at the specs.....yes, you can get an endless supply of hot water....but how hot? You have to look carefully at the stated performance. In most cases, the performance is listed as gal/hr for a given temp rise. If your water is coming in at 60 deg, then it has to raise the temp about 50-60 deg for the stated flow....that takes a lot of energy. I suspect a unit that large will be expensive.

Additionally....expect delays in getting hot water as well as fluctuations in temp.

I figure that in about 15 years a better method will be found. For now I'm sticking with my 50 gal unit. Have yet to run it out of hot water.

 

[Highbeam]

You just need a larger tank water heater. Heck, I've even seen side by side 80 gallon tank heaters in larger homes with one of those tubs. I'm not convinced that a tankless is the way to go unless you really really need the floor space.

 

[Falcon67]

First, I'd fault your heater. We moved from a house with a standard cheap 30 g gas unit and had as many as 4 people in the house at times plus a child and seldom had any hot water issues. The current house has a 50 g electric which has much worse recovery than a standard gas and we have zero hot water issues even with guests.

I did look at spot heaters before we replaced the current heater. I came to the conclusion that if I got 10 years out of a regular heater I could buy a lifetime of 50 gallon units and not be out as much money. Maybe great at the kitchen sink if you don't mind dropping $1000 plus the plumbing/wiring costs maybe, not much else IMHO.

I'd look at the brand and the distribution system.

 

[CNGsaves]

Tankless hot water heaters (especially with natural gas or propane) are becoming more popular and economical. Menards is running ad right now on TV where their unit is only $595 after a $200 rebate - - however this unit may not have enough flow to handle your house needs. FYI: Around here, a conventional 40 gal NG hot water heater is $300 to $400 (parts only) and $600 to $700 installed. Tankless installed would be double that.

If I were in your shoes, I'd be researching Tankless but specifically paying attention to LOCATION that unit would need installed. Much of tankless install cost relates to high cost horizontal specialty pvc pipes that need ran to exterior wall. Thus, it's location likely will need to be close to exterior wall to cut down on venting install cost - - running the NG supply (and water lines) over to new location will be much cheaper than trying to put tankless in the area where old conventional h/w heater was located.

Doesn't make sense to put in another conventional hot water tank, unless you intentionally want to defer going to tankless for another 10 or 12 years when the "new" conventional h/w heater fails.

If you end up going conventional h/w heater, then install it yourself using shark bites, if necessary for connecting the plumbing. Hauling in "new" h/w heater and hauling out the old h/w heater will be tougher than the install itself.

 

[Steevo]

One thing to consider is the BTU input requirements of a tankless sized to meet your demands. A large capacity tankless unit generally needs at least a 3/4" gas line to feed it, and you may have to plumb back to the meter to provide that.

 

[Jsf721]

Guys, loads of good info here, THANK YOU all!

The units I was looking at are tankless but no installed at the point of use. Instead, they are located on the equipment room where the old tanks was but make it on demand. Systems range from 4.4 GPM all the way to 9.2 GPM Max output. The 75 Gallon AO smith hi recovery tank best quote was $ 1050 installed old one hauled away. I cannot install the tank myself for many reasons but the 2 most important are :

1. I need to have a licensed plumber complete a permit. I pulled it as a homeowner acting as my own GC but I need to have a licensed plumber sign off as doing the work. Due to flooding a FEMA inspector visited all the houses in my area. THey know I had a water problem and if I don't pull a permit to show it was fixed acording to code I will not be able to sell my home. Right now permits fees are bring waived due to the area being declared a disaster area . If I do not replace my systems I need to make an appointment for a town inspector to come check and sign off on them to remove the flooded property designation on the property. Electrical has already been re-run and the electrial UL inspection completed and passed. The plumbing is the last of the major system inspections and permits required.

2. I don't have the experience dealing with gas connections at all and do not want to have a problem. Too much going on in my house and being the GC is time consuming enough while trying to work. Currently have a painter skim coating and then painting. Then a tile guy installing flooring (1,000/sq ft). Then installing trim around the doors and base cove. Then painter back to paint trim, install paint doors and touch up any damage sone by floor installer. New Forced Hot Air Furnace and A coil and vents being instaled this week. Electrician will be back to install a new fixture in the mechanical room. (Knocked the old one off) and install a full house surge protector at the panel. Last the home theater guy will re-install the TV, and AV equipment that got flooded. This one is going on the wall!

I did a lot of research into the systems......

Basically, if you have gas, the extra cost of the gas tankless takes a long time for payback....typically 15-20 years. By then, your unit is about done. Additionally, the units require more maint....and you have to look at the specs.....yes, you can get an endless supply of hot water....but how hot? You have to look carefully at the stated performance. In most cases, the performance is listed as gal/hr for a given temp rise. If your water is coming in at 60 deg, then it has to raise the temp about 50-60 deg for the stated flow....that takes a lot of energy. I suspect a unit that large will be expensive.

Additionally....expect delays in getting hot water as well as fluctuations in temp.

I figure that in about 15 years a better method will be found. For now I'm sticking with my 50 gal unit. Have yet to run it out of hot water.

You just need a larger tank water heater. Heck, I've even seen side by side 80 gallon tank heaters in larger homes with one of those tubs. I'm not convinced that a tankless is the way to go unless you really really need the floor space.

First, I'd fault your heater. We moved from a house with a standard cheap 30 g gas unit and had as many as 4 people in the house at times plus a child and seldom had any hot water issues. The current house has a 50 g electric which has much worse recovery than a standard gas and we have zero hot water issues even with guests.

I did look at spot heaters before we replaced the current heater. I came to the conclusion that if I got 10 years out of a regular heater I could buy a lifetime of 50 gallon units and not be out as much money. Maybe great at the kitchen sink if you don't mind dropping $1000 plus the plumbing/wiring costs maybe, not much else IMHO.

I'd look at the brand and the distribution system.

Tankless hot water heaters (especially with natural gas or propane) are becoming more popular and economical. Menards is running ad right now on TV where their unit is only $595 after a $200 rebate - - however this unit may not have enough flow to handle your house needs. FYI: Around here, a conventional 40 gal NG hot water heater is $300 to $400 (parts only) and $600 to $700 installed. Tankless installed would be double that.

If I were in your shoes, I'd be researching Tankless but specifically paying attention to LOCATION that unit would need installed. Much of tankless install cost relates to high cost horizontal specialty pvc pipes that need ran to exterior wall. Thus, it's location likely will need to be close to exterior wall to cut down on venting install cost - - running the NG supply (and water lines) over to new location will be much cheaper than trying to put tankless in the area where old conventional h/w heater was located.

Doesn't make sense to put in another conventional hot water tank, unless you intentionally want to defer going to tankless for another 10 or 12 years when the "new" conventional h/w heater fails.

If you end up going conventional h/w heater, then install it yourself using shark bites, if necessary for connecting the plumbing. Hauling in "new" h/w heater and hauling out the old h/w heater will be tougher than the install itself.

 

[Jsf721]

If that is the case I guess I would be luck as the meter is just outside the machanical room wall.

I will be installing a generator if I ever finish all these other projects before going broke. I was told I need a 3/4" gas line for that as well.

Ther fun never ends............................................

Thanks for sharing your knowledge and experience, I really appreciate it.

One thing to consider is the BTU input requirements of a tankless sized to meet your demands. A large capacity tankless unit generally needs at least a 3/4" gas line to feed it, and you may have to plumb back to the meter to provide that.

 

[CNGsaves]

Steevo is right that Btu demands of tankless might require larger NG supply line. Getting the correctly sized tankless will be tricky part. That's why you need to do your research on tankless. I'd recommend you find a local plumber who specializes in tankless and pick his brain.

Since you have Heating and Air guys coming anyway, make sure your NG main service line from meter to mechanical room is 1 1/2" black pipe or 2" black pipe, so that you could T off that for 3/4" that tankless might need. My house (built in 50's) has main NG service line of 1 1/2" black pipe that is stepped down to 3/4" for NG furnace and 1/2" for NG conventional h/w heater.

I'd vote to spend money on tankless now if you're satisfied that flow will be adequate to cover your needs. Not EVER running out of hot water (like you get when at a hotel) is great benefit of tankless, plus the Lower operating cost since you're only paying for NG when hot water is actually being used. IMHO spending $1,000 for conventional h/w tank is a waste. Why not spend $1,500 to $2,000 for tankless and be done for next 20 years, AND have all the hot water you could ever use?

 

[SARG]

We also got flooded out up here. One of my friends that I helped rebuild .... ended up with a new house ........ put tankless gas heaters in the new house and in his separate garage as well.

He loves it. The only guy on the block that washes his truck with warm water in January.

 

[Falcon67]

>The only guy on the block that washes his truck with warm water in January.
Now, that's just showing off!

 

[CNGsaves]

The tankless in detached garage is cool idea.

At previous house (w/ attached garage) when I was considering tankless, I was planning on adding an external spigot with hot water so a powerwasher could have both a hot and cold water inlet that could be blended. Couple hoses and a Y connector and whallah . . . endless supply of warm water outside!

Wife (now ex-wife) didn't "believe" in tankless, so never got the benefit of warm water for powerwashing car . . . :-(

 

[RECox286]

We are starting to see more tankless w/h's in the houses we take care of.

I guess they are OK, but it seems that they are the ones that give us the

most cause for service calls. Or maybe, it just seems that way. I'll pass

on putting one in my house. Our Boilermate works just fine.

Uncle Bob

 

[Jsf721]

In my area we are not allowed to use "black pipe" because the salt water can rust it in no time. Everything by code is galvanized.

If I can get a comfort level with a tankless I would go for it.

Steevo is right that Btu demands of tankless might require larger NG supply line. Getting the correctly sized tankless will be tricky part. That's why you need to do your research on tankless. I'd recommend you find a local plumber who specializes in tankless and pick his brain.

Since you have Heating and Air guys coming anyway, make sure your NG main service line from meter to mechanical room is 1 1/2" black pipe or 2" black pipe, so that you could T off that for 3/4" that tankless might need. My house (built in 50's) has main NG service line of 1 1/2" black pipe that is stepped down to 3/4" for NG furnace and 1/2" for NG conventional h/w heater.

I'd vote to spend money on tankless now if you're satisfied that flow will be adequate to cover your needs. Not EVER running out of hot water (like you get when at a hotel) is great benefit of tankless, plus the Lower operating cost since you're only paying for NG when hot water is actually being used. IMHO spending $1,000 for conventional h/w tank is a waste. Why not spend $1,500 to $2,000 for tankless and be done for next 20 years, AND have all the hot water you could ever use?

 

[pop pop]

The tankless in detached garage is cool idea.

At previous house (w/ attached garage) when I was considering tankless, I was planning on adding an external spigot with hot water so a powerwasher could have both a hot and cold water inlet that could be blended. Couple hoses and a Y connector and whallah . . . endless supply of warm water outside!

Wife (now ex-wife) didn't "believe" in tankless, so never got the benefit of warm water for powerwashing car . . . :-(

Dang, don't believe I'd run her off just over a hot water heater, but then.....

 

[CNGsaves]

. . . . There's lot more to the story. Now I get to decide my own decisions if you know what I mean.

 

[Shocker]

I have been neck deep in researching this exact issue. My 20 year old Bradford White electric tank just started leaking. I need to convert to natural gas (just did my oil furnace and it is part of my free gasline install).

So, what to do. I had 3 options, indirect off the boiler (expensive tanks and install), tankless and gas tanked model. I can do either a direct vent out the wall (concrete) or use the common venting to the chimney the boiler uses.

I started looking at tankless first off. They have really come down in price and for my use, the install isn't bad. The biggest issue is the GPM rating. They are almost all rated at 65 degree intake temps. Which is something you would find in the very tip of FL, TX and parts of AZ. Here in WA state, my winter intake is around 40-45 and summer is 50 give or take. When you factor in the delta, the average 8.5gpm unit is now a 3.5 gpm unit. That is at 180,000 btu. Jump up to a 10gpm and you get about 4.2gpm at 199,000 btu. You can jump up to the 11gpm units, but they are getting close to 2k just for the unit and you get about 6gpm give or take at 230,000 btu. All take a 3/4 gas line. Most are .82 to .90 efficient. The best are condensing and get about .92-.96

I think the best choice is a 12 year warrantied gas tanked unit. The Whirlpool Ecosense units at Lowes are about 600 bucks. Comes with the most efficient rating for a tank (.67) uses an electronic start (no pilot) and they are made in the USA. They are natural venting. And you can add the 11 year on site full warranty for about 100 bucks which seems like a good deal. The biggest downside is no hot water if you have a power outage (due to electric start).

PS: I haven't heard much good about the A.O. Smith units now that they are made in Mexico. Quality seems to have really fallen.

 

[Randy in Maine]

I would never go back to a conventional water heater. I would buy a Rinnai suitalbe for your "load" and not worry about it for another 15 years. Cannot be beat.

Been here?

http://www.rinnai.us/tankless-water-heater

 

[jlckmj]

I agree with Randy, check into the Rinnai. I just had one installed in my house and I will never go back to tank type. My unit handles 7.2 gal at normal temp input and I have a shower with two shower heads that I use every time, even with the washing machine going I have never run short of water.

My plumber,(who I trust) because he does a lot of sub contracting for my son told me that he has installed 15-18 of the same units and never had a call back.

We have the unit set for the water to come out of it at 130 degrees and it has been great. I can get away with that because we have no little kids, it is just the wife and I.
As far as waiting for hot water, at the farthest point we probably wait 15-18 seconds instead of the 10 seconds we used to for the conventional tank heater, not an issue for me.

Jim

 

[Jackfre]

I represented Rinnai for 20 years and still consult with them. I had the 6 New England states in my business. I've run tankless in my home(s) for 14 years. In my home in MA I reduced my net gas usage by 60% year to year for 10 years.

If we had a house full of people I could run two showers all day long and everyone could take as long a shower as they wanted. My last winter in MA we had a big storm once a week for 5 weeks. Everyone in the neighborhood was loosing gutter and having ice damage. I ran 100' of garden hose out of the basement, climbed up on the roof and ran hot water continuously for 3 1/2 hrs, but melted off 100% of the snow and ice off a 3000sq ft home. Not something you will do every day but it was pretty neat and all the neighbors who were laughing when I got up there were asking if my hose would reach their house

The output will vary by model and manuf. I will speak about Rinnai as I know the numbers. A Rinnai RL75 and 94 at .82 EF (water heaters are rated by Energy factor, not efficiency) at a 70* temp rise will deliver 4.3 and 4.7 gpm. The .92EF 80 &98 models will do 5.2 and 5.8 gpm, again, at 70* rise. Your ground water temp is, according to the USGS 50-55*f.

You will need to deliver 180-199 kbtu depending upon model. Test your water for hardness etc. know what you are putting into the unit. Garbage in garbage out. If you live on municipal water system they can send you the water analysis.

I've trained thousands of plumbers and gas techs in the proper installation and service requirements on Rinnai tankless water heaters. Any plumber who says they are new and to complicated should be avoided at all costs. All he is saying is he hasn't bothered to get trained in the 14 years the really good twh have been available. Had he bothered to go to the free training provided by manuf he would be a better more capable contractor. Tell him I said so please! Today's modulating flow and gas equipment is superb and properly installed will last a long time.

If you have any specific questions,I'll be happy to help. Sorry for what you all are going through back there. Hell of a thing! Oh, another thing. I have been in a few basements that the boiler, washer, dryer and everything on the deck was flooded. The wall hung tankless was the only appliance not ruined. Good luck as you work through everything.

 

[ddawg16]

I represented Rinnai for 20 years and still consult with them. I had the 6 New England states in my business. I've run tankless in my home(s) for 14 years. In my home in MA I reduced my net gas usage by 60% year to year for 10 years.

60%? Unless your the only one in the house, I don't buy it....

High efficiency tank heaters are .62 or better....your claiming .82 or .92.....sorry, that is not a 60% difference.....

 

[Shocker]

Hey Jackfre. I appreciate your post. I have been on the fence regarding a tankless, but so far there hasn't been any numbers that made sense for me personally.

Here in Olympia, WA, my input water temp right now is about 42 degrees. To get to the standard 120 degrees output, we are talking about a 80 degree delta to overcome.

The RU98i sits at about 4.7gpm at 80 degree rise. Now that is during the coldest months. When summer rolls around, it is going to be better.

That unit seems to be the largest available. Rinnai lists it as a "4 shower" model (as they do most of their units) but it can't keep up with 2 standard 2.5 gpm showers.

Now I am not looking to run a bunch of HW devices, but it would be nice to run a shower and dishwasher at the same time. That would be marginal at best.

I would love to hear your professional recommendation.

To the OP: Sorry if this got the thread out of whack, but I think we might be in the same boat so I hope it is helpful.

 

[SD_R/T]

I got a tankless about 9 months ago. I'm loving this thing so far. I have a very small garage so the biggest selling point for me was the recovered square footage. This little thing is now mounted on the outside of the garage, whereas that tank beast was hogging up a whole corner of my tiny garage. I already had gas and electrical connections in the area so the only real additional cost for me was the unit itself vs. tank.

Just as advertised, I never run out of hot water. And the water is indeed hot. Yes, I will probably have to run a solution through it once a year to remove the deposits (stupid Socal hard water). With the saved garage SF, I'm ok with that.

When I looked at my first couple utility bills after the fact, it appeared to reduce my overall gas consumption to about 30% of what it was during that same time period the year before.

I live in San Diego, so YMMV.

 

[ddawg16]

SD...I think your application illustrates a good point....tankless is a great way to go if your usage is less than constant. In other words, if most of the water usage takes place for an hour or so per day, then your not wasting gas or electricity keeping water hot for the other 23 hours.

But if your a typical family where water is being used all day and evening...then the savings of a tankless goes down quickly.

 

[Highbeam]

The standby losses from a modern tank heater to the interior of a home are so small. If your tank water heater is setting out on a porch then I suspect the losses might be greater.

 

[SD_R/T]

.... In other words, if most of the water usage takes place for an hour or so per day, then your not wasting gas or electricity keeping water hot for the other 23 hours.......

Indeed. With my household and lifestyle, the hot water tank was just sitting around most of the day - keeping water hot for people that did not need it.

 

[ljhhontx]

The standby losses from a modern tank heater to the interior of a home are so small. If your tank water heater is setting out on a porch then I suspect the losses might be greater.

As a service tech for a natural gas utility in Texas I agree with you, while some of my customers speak well of the tankless there is a huge difference in the install costs, they need a tremendous amount of combustion air hence the outside wall recommendation and the maintenance costs especially if the water is hard can be substantial. The tankless salesmen really talk up the gas savings but I disagree since the insulation is so much better in new tank types and the pilot is really not wasted as it does keep the water warm while the burner is off it is not truly wasted, just my opinion, I'm sticking with the old faithful tank until convinced otherwise,

 

[Jackfre]

60%? Unless your the only one in the house, I don't buy it....

High efficiency tank heaters are .62 or better....your claiming .82 or .92.....sorry, that is not a 60% difference.....

Yeah, that's what I do. I sit around and try to think up Sh** to shovel at people.

I had a Buderus G224 boiler with the Ecomatic re-set control and the Buderus 40 gal. indirect. Off cycle damper in the stack.

My gas bill with my Buderus making hot water, in the summer was between 36 and 44 therms/mo. All I did with NG in the summer is hot water, so I know the number is correct. When I turned on the tankless I pulled the indirect, turned off the boiler in the summer and let the Rinnai R94 .82EF run. Over a ten year period in the summer months I used between 10-13 therms per month. I didn't even look at the usage on the bills for over a year and I too was surprised, so I kept monitoring it.

My tankless consumption reflected the true "system" performance, need, use. The other number did as well, but even with a cold start set-up on the boiler the heat loss of the associated thermosiphoning of hot water up into the insulated piping all day every day consumed that much gas. Frankly, I was stunned by this. Enough so that I had the Buderus rep, a friend of mine, come in to check the system out. You have to look past the equipment and look at how the whole system performs.

I had a definite delay of hot water delivery when I installed the tankless. It does not make hot water until you open a tap, and then you have to evacuate the cool to cold water in the piping to get hot. The hot water in the tank was pushing up into the hot water lines 24 hrs per day. In a 3/4" riser pipe the hot water will flow up the center of the pipe. As the water cools it falls on the outside circumference of the pipe creating this relentless energy waste. This flow goes on ALL the time. The Energysaver Bunny analogy fits here. The tankless eliminates that. Recirc pump systems will frequently cost more for the homeowner to operate in heat loss and pump cost than the cost of heating the hot water you actually use.

If you install tankless, review the lay-out of the hot water system and position the tankless to give you its best. Review your hot water piping lay-out. In other words, don't perpetuate the mistakes of the original low cost bidder!

On the pipe sizing, I'm saying this from memory so check the math, but 1/2 copper has a cross sectional area of .19 sq", 3/4" is .44 sq" and 1" is .79". Those numbers reflect volume differences.

Shocker, I have found the output numbers from Rinnai to be right on at specified temperature rises. Generally, and this is my experience in the east, the cold water temps may be depressed once the frost drives down to the water lines. It takes time to get that deep and time to come out so generally I would see a 3 month period of about 40-45* water. The Cascades may tell a different story

If you are unable to reach design outputs at specified temp rises you either have a dirty inlet filter or your gas line is undersized. You don't have to take the cover off to read the gas pressure. There is a tap on the gas connection outside the cabinet.

 

[CNGsaves]

...But if your a typical family where water is being used all day and evening...then the savings of a tankless goes down quickly.

This is exactly OPPOSITE of what real world benefit of tankless provides. If ANY user of hot water is "using it all day and evening" then that is PERFECT solution for tankless. Have you ever seen a whole room of conventional h/w tanks at a hotel??? Do you think heated swimming pools have a whole bunch of conventional h/w tanks?? NOPE, because the old conventional tank method just couldn't keep up. They have tankless . . . Period.

 

[ddawg16]

This is exactly OPPOSITE of what real world benefit of tankless provides. If ANY user of hot water is "using it all day and evening" then that is PERFECT solution for tankless. Have you ever seen a whole room of conventional h/w tanks at a hotel??? Do you think heated swimming pools have a whole bunch of conventional h/w tanks?? NOPE, because the old conventional tank method just couldn't keep up. They have tankless . . . Period.

This is two different situations.....

The 'performance' advantage of tankless is when you need more hot water than a typical tank can provide.

The 'economic' advantage of a tankless comes into play when the duty cycle is low. As the usage goes up, the overall gas savings as compared to a tank goes down....yes, the tankless still uses slightly less gas...but, when you factor in the total cost...when it comes to anual cost in relation to unit cost (cost of unit + installation), the payback is too long.

I was talking with another scout dad the other night at a scout meeting. The completed a whole house do over (tore down everything but one wall). It was the typical "What would you do different?". Item #1, tankless. He wishes he had not done the tankless. He has not seen any significant difference in gas usage during the summer. In fact, my gas bill is less than his. My wife is home more and we have more kids.

With that said....I am considering a tankless unit at the front of my house. My kitchen is about 50' away from the water heater....it takes about a min to get hot water. Since I only have a sink and dishwasher up there, a small tankless would be perfect. I'm thinking that even a 120Vac unit will be enough.

 

[rust buster]

Definitely go tankless. I did about 2 years ago but had to go with an electric (Stiebel Eltron) because we don't have natural gas to the house and everything is electric. Easy to install, just requires lots of juice (3 50A breakers on #8 wire). Did the whole thing for around $800 and my electric bills went down by 20-30%. If I could have gone gas, I definitely would have. The best part, as others have said, is the endless supply of water...you can take a 24 hour shower if you wanted to.

VERY important to take care of your hard water (if you have any) first. Learned that the hard way. The thing pretty much completely clogged up. Had to isolate it and flush vinegar through it for hours to clean it all up. Installed a water softner and been flawless ever since.

 

[Highbeam]

The best part, as others have said, is the endless supply of water...you can take a 24 hour shower if you wanted to.

To many of us, that's the worst part. All I need is some teenage girl in there taking an hour long shower and flooding the septic drainfield while consuming vast amounts of energy.

 

[Falcon67]

This is exactly OPPOSITE of what real world benefit of tankless provides. If ANY user of hot water is "using it all day and evening" then that is PERFECT solution for tankless. Have you ever seen a whole room of conventional h/w tanks at a hotel??? Do you think heated swimming pools have a whole bunch of conventional h/w tanks?? NOPE, because the old conventional tank method just couldn't keep up. They have tankless . . . Period.

Our athletic filed house uses three big commercial tank heaters. Look like 200~250 gallon units.

 

[dave*99]

My 2 cents here free for the taking. House flooded at the Jersey Shore. I had a 12 year old NG conventional tank water heater in the garage. I agonized over the decison as I always do, but chose tankless. Navien NR-240. 199,000 BTU. The plumber has installed many and says they are great. We will see. I figured since it was a summer home and given the usage conditons it was a good fit. Endless showers when I have a housefull of people. No standby losses in the winter. Freed up some space in the garage. I put the tankless in the house up high to avoid the next Sandy. It is being plumbed as I type this. Let's hope for the best.