Water Heater

[Silver Heels]

Hello, while not directly garage-related, I am building a house this spring that is attached to my garage, so I'm sure that I'm not too out of line posting my question here.

I have a decision to make- have the plumber put in an electric water heater or spend $1029 more to have a gas (propane) water heater installed. Some of that comes down to the higher up-front cost of the heater itself, and some of that is due to the installation of the flue out the roof. BTW, there are too many drawbacks for me to consider a tankless unit.

I know gas heaters are more efficient, can run if the power goes out, recover quicker, and are just plane better in most respects than an electric unit. I still have a hard time swollowing paying over a grand more for a hole in my roof and a tank that otherwise serves the same function.

Does anyone here have any input? Has anyone actually crunched numbers to determine if we save money in the end by going gas? What about gas heaters that vent out the wall with a fan? Any advice is much appreciated (just please don't call it a "hot water heater.")

 

[Charles (in GA)]

Get a Marathon electric water heater.

Charles

 

[brewchief]

Savings of a gas vs electric are dependent on each energy cost.
There's a sticker on the side of every new heater with an estimated yearly operating cost based on national energy costs average.
Off the bradford white site most of the electric heaters are around 500$ a year, nat gas around 300$ a year and propane around 500$ a year, remember these are based of national average cost so your area may be significantly different.

 

[tjcanno]

Propane seldom beats electric.

There is a glut of natural gas in the US right now, which equals low nat gas prices and low electric prices. Not so with propane.

 

[JCoggin]

Get a Marathon electric water heater.

Charles

This..^^^^^....you won't be sorry.....

JC

 

[where2]

Marathon with a Nyle Geyser-R heat pump upgrade = Free dehumidification and 2x electric heating element efficiency.

After I finish my PV install, I'll be getting a Nyle Geyser-RO, because I haven't had to turn the heat on all winter, but it was over 80°F last weekend!

 

[PassnThru]

I'll just point out one thing here - the flue is a one time cost. The water heater will have to be replaced at some point no matter which you put in now- anywhere from 10 to 20+ years depending on a wide range of factors. How long do you plan to live in that house? The payback time may be shorter than you think.

 

[jackfork]

If it was me I would use whichever is being used to heat the house.

 

[Falcon67]

You'd really have to figure your price per therm for the energy and then go from there. On out co-op, gas will beat the hell out of electric. Outside of the co-op where power-to-choose operates, only NG beats power - usually. Having had both gas and electric water heaters, I'd use gas first. BUT - the neighborhood we are in is all electric. For this climate, the GE heat pump water heater would be our best option.

 

[Silver Heels]

Thanks for the replies. Its just me (no kids, wife, etc) so I put a very small demand on hot water- a quick shower in the morning, a load of laundry per week, and the very occasional load of dishes to wash. I'll probably just throw an electric one in and be done with it.

 

[Silver Heels]

I'll have to look into that heat pump option

 

[justanengineer]

$1k MORE for a propane heater? ****...I was thinking $1k total was ridiculous.

I'm on NG with a gas water heater, gas furnace, and gas dryer. Water heater is a brandy new this past spring Whirlpool from Lowe's for $400 (believe that was on sale from ~$500). Id guess the water heater is ~$10/month to operate. In the winter with thermostats 70-74F, its $80-100/month for gas. In the summer its ~$20/month total. If your price differential is that great, cant say it would be worth it to me, tho I also dont plan on living here for 10 years either.

 

[where2]

If it is just you in the house, get an electric and go to Waterheatertimer.org and rig yourself up a timer.

I've had mine on a 7-day programmable timer for about 6 weeks, and I am still narrowing my run time down. My water heater is currently running 30 minutes in the morning before we get up, and anywhere up to an hour in the evening. I've rigged my water heater with a digital thermometer that records max and min temperatures on the remote probe. Max=130°F, Min=108°F for this week. My incoming water temp is 76°F. I just checked my thermometer and it's still at 120°F although it hasn't been powered on for 12+ hours.

The yellow energy tag on my 2008 Whirlpool Energy Smart 50 gallon unit thought it would consume 4622kWh/yr (12.6kWh/day). I've got it on a drastic diet. I have days my whole house uses a total of 13kWh/day.

The 3800W upper element in my tank imparts +1°F per minute into the water at the top of the tank. Watching the temps in the tank, the upper element runs until the top portion of the tank reaches 115°F, then the lower element kicks on.

 

[Silver Heels]

Where2- I like your suggestion as well with the timer- thanks. You've all given me great points to ponder.

 

[saltracer]

just pick one.........you will only be stuck with it for about three or four years then it will start leaking and get another find

 

[where2]

just pick one.........you will only be stuck with it for about three or four years then it will start leaking and get another find

Really? The one I installed in 2008 is still running strong. I took a peek inside it last weekend. Anode needs replacing, but the tank walls and elements looked fine. If my drinking water rotted out my water heater in 3-4 years, I would think twice about drinking it!

 

[jumpingryan]

Building a house... congrads and enjoy the process....

Flue out the roof? I am assuming a metal B--vent?

In my area, when people go natural gas or propane for water heaters they usually install a sidewall power vented units that are electrically ignited (no standing pilot light), and power vented. While I could see the extra costs for propane supply lines dependant on distance, costs for venting should be minimal with power vent.

Power vented means cheap PVC (now specific material approved for gas venting) that can go out the side of the house (or the less preferred, and if required, PVC venting through the roof). Most power vented propane water heating tanks require a standard dedicated 120 volt 15 amp (or 20 amp if local code requires) circuit.

The disadvantages of it is that if the power goes out, like an electric water heater, there is no hot water being generated. However if alternate power supply arrangements are a concern, if you hook to a generator during those times, the wattage requirements are significantly less than an electric water heater meaning a smaller generator requirement.

I have had electric, natural gas, and oil hot water heaters in the houses I have owned so far. Each has their advantages and disadvantages, but if I had the choice in my current area, I would start with natural gas (if they ever bring it my way), then go propane with electric being a close 3rd for water heating.

I avoid electric resistance heating (both baseboard and forced air) like the plague, but I am opening up to the modern heat pumps with electric backup after hearing good reports from friends.

One thing to note about propane is that if you suspect natural gas might come to your area in 10 to 15 years, a conversion is often a simple nozzle change dependant on manufacturer. Consider sizing your piping for the largest diameter required for propane/natural gas, and insisting on materials that will be acceptable for both installs. (black iron or the new metal/plastic CCST gas piping). Copper is often acceptable for propane only in modern installs.

Oil hot water heating (and oil household heat in general) is slowly disappearing in my area for a variety of reasons, including more complicated flue requirements and oil tank storage liability/insurance.

Ryan

 

[Bookworm]

The timer on an electric heater is an inexpensive answer. I put a timer on my electric water heater about a year ago. I have it set to run 2 hours on a weekday morning. This provides plenty of hot water for my (much) better half to soak in her VERY hot shower in the AM, plus it has plenty of hot for me to shower in the evening.
On the weekends, I have it set to run 2 hours in the AM, then again 2 hours in the late afternoon. This gives plenty of hot water for various cleaning activities, plus our shower time changes on the weekend.
I got a digital timer off Amazon, about $75. That, and 10 feet of 10-2 romex, along with a couple hours of mounting and wiring.
I would definitely do it again.

 

[cburnscrx]

Thanks for the replies. Its just me (no kids, wife, etc) so I put a very small demand on hot water- a quick shower in the morning, a load of laundry per week, and the very occasional load of dishes to wash. I'll probably just throw an electric one in and be done with it.

It's just you...today. Is that likely to change? Are you going to be in this house if you expand your living situation? There are plenty of variables to consider when purchasing your water heater.

 

[1redTA]

I just got a GE GeoSpring for 899 from Lowes with a 700 rebate from Gulf Power and a 300 dollar tax credit come next year because of the efficiency of the heat pump water heater

 

[GRX]

Timely thread. I just finished installing a new 50-gal electric water heater in my house not two hours ago. Went with 'State' brand because many of my contractor friends have good success with them. Plus I got a good deal. And the model I bought is still made in the good ol' USA. Tennessee if I was told correctly.

> edit:
If memory serves, brands such as Kenmore, GE and Richmond (probably more) are all made by Rheem, most of which have been made in Mexico for some time. And quality has suffered as a result.

 

[Shadowdog500]

Just replaced mine last week. My Kenmore Power Miser lasted over 14 years and I wanted another until I found out they are now junk. It's slim pickings for water heaters in New Jersey, which I assume is because of water heaters rusting out due to Sandy.

Wound up getting the Whirlpool.
It has decent reviews, is made in USA, and was the only 12 year water heater I could get my hands on without waiting for it to ship to me.

Chris

 

[AZ Pete]

I just put in a Whirlpool 50 gal. electric (12 year warranty) too. Looks like a good unit and is 4" larger in diameter and 2" taller than the one I replaced, due to more insulation. I did try to find a Marathon though. Home Depot supposedly carries them, in some stores....but none I could find in the Phoenix Metro area. They listed the Marathon for something like $800, but none were to be found. I contacted a Marathon dealer in Phoenix, and was quoted $999.00 for the heater, and $585.00 installation......

Now, I can accept a $100 service call, but the balance of the $585 to hook up a cold water line, a hot water line, a relief valve line and one electrical connection (all of which are already there) plus the premium of $200 added to the tank price....Good bye Marathon, Hello Lowe's and Whirlpool, for a total $485.00 and about two hours of my time to pick it up, drain and remove the old tank and install the new one.

The 50 gal. American that I replaced had a 6 year warranty and lasted 10 or 11, so by the time I go through the Whirlpool, maybe Marathons will be more available, or there will be more manufacturers that offer "life time" tanks, with the level of insulation that Marathon has.

Would have loved to try the Marathon, but the price being asked, just couldn't make it happen this time.