Water leak

[Karl Fields]

Seen some really OT questions posted (with great responses), so here's mine

We have a 1500 gallon water storage tank with several hundred feet of drop to our RV. Half dozen spigots from tank to RV, all in 1" PVC. At the RV (end of the run) we used to (last month) get about 50 lbs of pressure. Now it is pretty much down to a trickle of water with no pressure.

The tank is full, opening the 2" valve at the tank show definite flow out. Since I could get no water out of any of the spigots (they are all just a T in the 1" main up about 4' to the spigot), I thought maybe the issue was a broken or blocked pipe between the tank and spigot 1. Replaced the 100' of pipe today and now again get great water from spigot 1, but nothing but drain residue any lower.

We are talking about 2500' of underground pipe, so just replacing it won't work for me. The pipe is about 15 years old and follows a dirt road. Over the past month I have had a lot of heavy truck traffic on the road. Pipe is about 18" deep.

Anybody got a great idea (or any idea at all) on how to locate the approximate location of the breakage/stopage?
Thanks

 

[tomsmith]

what about a drain snake camera? You can rent those .. not sure if it's 2500' long, I doubt it .. but hopefully it's a break within the length of the camera cable.

 

[motorcycle79]

Does the line cross the road I would start there. Or if u are loosing water u could get two metal coat hangers and and walk the line when they cross dig there. Witching we call it around here

 

[tomsmith]

Divining rods? I thought that was a myth? I'm intrigued ... a quick Google search brings up lot of articles for and against..

 

[slip knot]

Pressure up from the RV end and start going back up hill. When you quit getting flow you'll know what section to replace.

 

[Karl Fields]

Does the line cross the road I would start there. Or if u are loosing water u could get two metal coat hangers and and walk the line when they cross dig there. Witching we call it around here

Rather than cross the road, I believe the line follows the road down, like in the middle of the road. I think the trenching and road cut were done at the same time.

Not to poo poo your divining rod (can't talk trash about something I know nothing about) but really? Even if it worked, wouldn't it show the entire water line, not just the leak?

 

[Karl Fields]

Pressure up from the RV end and start going back up hill. When you quit getting flow you'll know what section to replace.

Help me with this one. Apply air pressure at the RV end. OK - 100# enough?
I guess this would be with water in the line but the tank shut off.

If I get no water out of the upper spigots currently, how can I measure flow? Or, by pressurizing from below, am I expecting water to come out of the uphill spigots as the air gets to them?

I am a little lost ....

 

[slip knot]

Your trying to isolate where your pipe is collapsed at. Start at the bottom . Pressure up the bottom spigot with air and start going up the hill from spigot to spigot. The air will either force the water back up the hill or will blow around the water and show up as air pressure. keep going up the hill until you get to the one that nothing comes out of. You should be able to isolate which section is collapsed and replace that section only.

 

[slip knot]

How cold is it? The spigot risers aren't frozen are they?

 

[Karl Fields]

How cold is it? The spigot risers aren't frozen are they?

Naw, no big freeze in NorCal
Has gotten into the upper 20s at night lately, but the risers are foam wrapped.

 

[larry_g]

Or, by pressurizing from below, am I expecting water to come out of the uphill spigots as the air gets to them?

I am a little lost ....

This is a test to see if air induced into the system at the RV will travel out the spigots going back toward the tank. If you number the spigots 1 to 5 coming from the tank then blowing air , or water if you can, into spigot 5 and it will come out of spigots 3&4 but not 2 then the plug is 'tween 2&3. another thing to try would be attach a hose to spigot 1, since you say you now have flow there, and attach it to spigot 2 and if it comes out at the RV then you have a plug between 1&2. Would assuming that the line may be frozen a good assumption?

lg
no neat sig line

 

[Al Bundy]

Can't help you with your problem, but I can tell you that witching is real. I have done it successfully ever since my dad taught me how. I don't have any idea how it works, but it does.

 

[rlitman]

Can't help you with your problem, but I can tell you that witching is real. I have done it successfully ever since my dad taught me how. I don't have any idea how it works, but it does.

Un huh. Whether or not YOU believe this, it has been as debunked as Uri Geller bending spoons.

Here's a fun example:

 

[srmofo]

Your trying to isolate where your pipe is collapsed at. Start at the bottom . Pressure up the bottom spigot with air and start going up the hill from spigot to spigot. The air will either force the water back up the hill or will blow around the water and show up as air pressure. keep going up the hill until you get to the one that nothing comes out of. You should be able to isolate which section is collapsed and replace that section only.

I would reason that if he has watter flow from #1 (after replacing it) but not from #2 the blockage is between those 2 spickets.

Now if he pressurizes from the bottom and he gets to #1 before it stops, hes lucky in that only 1 section is bad.

However if he only makes it to #4 or #3 then he probably has several issues and at this point it might just be cheaper and easier to replace as much of the line as he can in 1 swoop. Theres nothing worse then doing all the work to cobble it back together only to have another failure in a few months because all of the pipe is the same age and has the same amount of use on it.

 

[Al Bundy]

Un huh. Whether or not YOU believe this, it has been as debunked as Uri Geller bending spoons.

Here's a fun example:

ROFL. Must be tough to go through life with your mind closed up like a nuns legs. It's hardly a parlor trick like bending spoons. Maybe those that can successfully witch have x-ray vision that allows them to see the water vein through the ground? Like I said, I've done it. But since you found a video on the internet that says it isn't true, well must be I imagined it. After all, if it's on the internet it must be true.

 

[kbs2244]

The way a truck can flex a blacktop road is amazing.
On an August day I have seen a 4 to 6 inch flex under a county road.

So, are the heavy trucks a temporary thing?
If not I would think real hard about re-routing the pipe out from under the road.

 

[spy604]

ROFL. Must be tough to go through life with your mind closed up like a nuns legs. It's hardly a parlor trick like bending spoons. Maybe those that can successfully witch have x-ray vision that allows them to see the water vein through the ground? Like I said, I've done it. But since you found a video on the internet that says it isn't true, well must be I imagined it. After all, if it's on the internet it must be true.[/QUO

Science says otherwise...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dowsing

 

[rlitman]

ROFL. Must be tough to go through life with your mind closed up like a nuns legs. It's hardly a parlor trick like bending spoons. Maybe those that can successfully witch have x-ray vision that allows them to see the water vein through the ground? Like I said, I've done it. But since you found a video on the internet that says it isn't true, well must be I imagined it. After all, if it's on the internet it must be true.[/QUO

Science says otherwise...

I like to think of it this way:

"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt."

-- Samuel Clemens

 

[J4nss(WNY)]

Is the tank vented and if so is the vent blocked?

 

[PAToyota]

If I understand you, you originally didn't even get flow to spigot #1. What did you find when you replaced the pipe from the tank to #1?

 

[Al Bundy]

ROFL. Must be tough to go through life with your mind closed up like a nuns legs. It's hardly a parlor trick like bending spoons. Maybe those that can successfully witch have x-ray vision that allows them to see the water vein through the ground? Like I said, I've done it. But since you found a video on the internet that says it isn't true, well must be I imagined it. After all, if it's on the internet it must be true.[/QUO

Science says otherwise...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dowsing

Believe what you like. I'm sure you two guys are just internet jockeys with no actual experience in the subject.

Science has said a lot of things throughout history that turned out not to be true.

rlitman - something just for you

 

[gricegear]

Witchin rods do work fairly well if you hold them correctly. I use them at work a lot. I work for the water company. Laugh if you will but they do a better job than a locator around here because of all the other lines and utilities in the ground. I trust them. When we dig water leaks that is what we use. Accurate so far. To each his own..

 

[zmaxmotorsports]

Can you isolate the line from the tank someplace past the 1st valve then blow compressed air through the line to blow it out?

 

[Kevin54]

Seen some really OT questions posted (with great responses), so here's mine

We have a 1500 gallon water storage tank with several hundred feet of drop to our RV. Half dozen spigots from tank to RV, all in 1" PVC. At the RV (end of the run) we used to (last month) get about 50 lbs of pressure. Now it is pretty much down to a trickle of water with no pressure.

The tank is full, opening the 2" valve at the tank show definite flow out. Since I could get no water out of any of the spigots (they are all just a T in the 1" main up about 4' to the spigot), I thought maybe the issue was a broken or blocked pipe between the tank and spigot 1. Replaced the 100' of pipe today and now again get great water from spigot 1, but nothing but drain residue any lower.

We are talking about 2500' of underground pipe, so just replacing it won't work for me. The pipe is about 15 years old and follows a dirt road. Over the past month I have had a lot of heavy truck traffic on the road. Pipe is about 18" deep.

Anybody got a great idea (or any idea at all) on how to locate the approximate location of the breakage/stopage?
Thanks

When you replaced the line from the tank to the first spigot, did you dig up the old and replace it, ot just trench a new trench from the tank to spigot #1? If digging up the old, did you find anything in the line that could be causing the blockage? Is there a possibility in your setup where you could make an adapter and hook it to a portable air compressor and see if the blockage would blow out spigot #6? I don't know how much you want to spend, other than the least possible amount, but maybe rent something like a pull behind Ingersoll compressor like you see street crews using to jackhammer out things.

If you are using the 1" black plastic waterline, you should be able to put quite a bit of pressure to it. That is as long as the connections are tight all along the 2500' distance. If you can pressurize it, you may be able to open valve 1-6 in that order to see what comes out. Renting a compressor and doing that would be way cheaper than trenching out and replacing 2500' of line. I think it would be worth a try.

 

[JamieK]

Heres my idea. Drain the line of all water and get access to one end of it. Take a piece of foam rubber, about 1 inch in diameter,so it'll fit in the pipe loosely, but not tight. Tie a long piece of strong twine to it. (about 2500 feet long). Put the foam in the pipe, and blow compressed air in behind it. May need to make an adapter fitting to hook the air to. As the foam zooms along inside the pipe, it'll pull the string behind it, until it gets to the blockage. After it stops, mark the string at the end and pull it back out of the pipe. The length of the string will tell you how far down the pipe the blockage is. Should work in theory, but don't know about reality!

 

[motorcycle79]

Witchin rods do work fairly well if you hold them correctly. I use them at work a lot. I work for the water company. Laugh if you will but they do a better job than a locator around here because of all the other lines and utilities in the ground. I trust them. When we dig water leaks that is what we use. Accurate so far. To each his own..

Spot on couldn't have said it better myself

 

[Karl Fields]

Great ideas - well most of them

Little update. I dug up the line I replaced and found that at a 90 connection, the opening had shrunk to about half the size of of pencil. Calcium. Damn!

Then as I was walking down to the end to use the compressed air, I noticed a damp spot in the road. This is not the road the concrete trucks were on. Dug it up and found a section of the 1" PVC and come out of the connector. It had been glued, but I noticed no sign of primer. Regardless, how in the world did the pipe 'move' the inch and a half to come unhooked from the connector? This thing is 18" underground! Earthquake?

Anyway, happy ending in that I have lots of water and pressure again!

 

[DHS]

Witchin rods do work fairly well if you hold them correctly. I use them at work a lot. I work for the water company. Laugh if you will but they do a better job than a locator around here because of all the other lines and utilities in the ground. I trust them. When we dig water leaks that is what we use. Accurate so far. To each his own..

I too work for the Water Dept. and I can tell you it sure seems to work. Some guys can do it and some can not. I use to could not do it, but after a few years of trying I think I have it down. I walk across it one way and mark the spot they turn and then go the other way and mark that spot. Start probing in the middle and a lot of the times it will be in between the two spots.

Gricegear, what kind of locators do you use? We have a 3m locator for tracing wires and it works good. We also had a salesman come out and show us a gizmo that hooks to the hydrant and kinda pulsates the water coming out (water hammer) but the guy himself could not find the line in the yard with it.

I would never use witching rods and not verify the location of the mains, but it does get you very close a lot of the times.

 

[nmanitou]

Great ideas - well most of them

Dug it up and found a section of the 1" PVC and come out of the connector. It had been glued, but I noticed no sign of primer. Regardless, how in the world did the pipe 'move' the inch and a half to come unhooked from the connector? This thing is 18" underground! Earthquake?

That length of pipe will contract/expand with a tempurature difference. If it's only 18" deep there could be a temperature gradient. The pipe will also rebound if it has been directionally drilled rther than an open cut installation. Thats one reason why they make anchor blocks!

 

[maddawg1952]

Water hammer more than likely blew the connection apart. Repeated on and off quick will send a water hammer to a sharp bend or connection. Over time it made the non primed connection weak. Any one ever use Geo-phones for leak detection? We use them for finding leaks, like a stethescope with 2 tubes connected to 2 bronze hockey pucks you put them on the ground over the main and listen for a gurgle, pick them up and move towards the sound till it roars under your feet. My diving rods are 2 brazing rods about 24" long bent for 3" handles and they work OK sometimes better than others. I also have a Shonstedt pipe locater for locating ferrous pipe that works great, glorified metal detector. And last but not least the old reliable Pipe Horn with the transmiter and the reciever for tracing copper services.