water options - advice?

[isaac338]

I'd really like to have water in the garage this winter. My options are slim, with our 5 foot frost depth - dig a 6 foot deep trench, or run the pipe only a couple feet down in a hand-dug trench and use that in-line heat trace (like http://www.pexsupply.com/Easy-Heat-ILH4050-50-ft-250-Watt-In-Pipe-Heating-Cable).

If I dig the deep trench, I won't have to pay for the electricity to run the heat tape, but I have to pay a guy to dig a deep trench. And, if I ever let the heat turn off in the garage, I have to worry about the pipe freezing where it comes through the slab. With the tape, all I'd have to do is drain the pipe down as far as the heat tape.

The heat tape is expensive, though.. about the same cost as having a guy dig a trench if the digging is good. If the digging is bad, the trench is way more.

I'm concerned I'll hire the excavation company and he'll dig down 3 feet and hit bedrock; I'll still have to pay for the excavation and I'll also have to buy the heat tape. I say this because my basement is only two or three feet below grade, and when I drove a grounding rod it hit something real solid after a few feet.

What would you guys do?

 

[mrobins297aaa]

I gave up on the idea of having water in my barn in the winter time, I just blow the line out around Thanksgiving and turn the water back on in early may.........since its just too much to try and keep it from freezing

 

[Sureshot]

If you have a drain dig it down as far as you can and if it doesn't get deep enough let the tap drip super slow and it will not freeze. Put a valve so you can shut it off to the shop and a way to blow it out with air or add plumbing antifreeze or both.

If it is not far I would run three lines. Loop two together so you can circulate hot water in if needed to unthaw. OR fill them with antifreeze and circulate it back and forth when the frost gets down to keep it unfrozen using the heat from the house or shop. Insulate them in a bundle and it will be real easy.

Don't be scared to run extra stuff like airline,ethernet,cable,telephone as you just never know and if the distance isn't to far duplicates. I had a line leak in Jan and it is major grief and you know the mess of frozen lumps from winter excavating.

If your grades allow and you need a drain you could run one with good heater hose and tie it into your plumbing like a dishwaher or into the washmachine riser.

Possibly sleeve it all in sewer pipe aswell.

 

[theoldwizard1]

+1 on draining the line for winter.

I don't have any idea on what your plans are for water in the shop, but if it is not a lot (drinking, hand washing) and you want water all winter, consider a large tank inside the shop with some kind of heater to keep the water from freezing. If the tank runs out, you can turn the water back on from the house and refill it and then blow the line out again.

 

[peterj]

I rented a walk behind trencher and ran my own line 120' from the house for about $50.00. I drain the line in winter so have never had a freezing issue here in NC.

 

[nehog]

IMHO the heat tape will eventually fail... I would consider it a short term solution at best.

A 'dripping' faucet will freeze, the idea that you let it drip and it won't freeze is false. It will take longer to freeze, but it WILL FREEZE.

So you are left with two viable solutions, IMHO: either do it right (below the frost line) or forget water. I chose the latter, but putting a tank (say 40 gallons) of water can be very useful and resolve many of the problems of running water out, but it is not optimal (you will need a small pump as well, but put the tank high and gravity feed to a sink and you should be good.

 

[hh76]

I'm in the same boat. I've been tossing around different ideas on how to get it done without trenching deep, and finally came to the conclusion that it will be more work in the future if I take a shortcut now.

I'll rent a trencher and take it on some weekend (probably won't get to it this year). If I hit anything that'd prevent me getting below frost, I'll put it in at that depth and plan on blowing the lines for winter.

Talked to a guy who said that he only got his down about 3.5ft (frost is at 4ft). He said he takes his chances with it freezing because he put in 3 spare pipes. He said he blows the snow from his driveway over the area to help insulate.

 

[NUTTSGT]

Although I heat my garage all winter, I still took the precaution of using a frost-free hydrant in the garage. The water line comes under the back floor and into the bathroom to the frost free hydrant. The plumbing starts at the hydrant.

 

[isaac338]

Thanks for the opinions. I'm still 50/50.. I know digging it down is the right way to do it, but I do like the idea of not having the pipe freeze if the furnace turns off. I might have the best of both worlds and wrap 5' of heat tape around the pipe between the frost line and the slab.

I'll keep ya updated!

 

[Milton Shaw]

If you do run above the frost line, if you use metal pipe and it freezes you can thaw it out with a welder with long leads. Ridgid tools sells a couple of pipe thawing units, I got one on Ebay for less than a hundred, I had to buy cables for it but haven't had to use it yet. Its only a step down heavy duty transformer, steps down 120 to 6 volts about 300 amps. Place I used to work had pipes freeze called welder, he hooked upa lincoln generator at meter at street and plumbing inside and had pipe thawed in 5 minutes or so. Ridgid also sells a pipe freezer, its designed so you can shut water off with a frozen section, repair line and thaw it out without having to shut down the whole building to repair /add on plumbing. Its a small selfcontained freezer with adapters for different size/type of pipe.

 

[30-30remchester]

I was a waterwell contracter for 36 years, so I do have some experence. If bedrock is a real concern then the drainback system is the only option I would vote for. I have heard that the new high dollar heat tapes will last for years underground but I dont trust them.

 

[isaac338]

I just hired a guy to come Thursday morning and dig a trench. If we hit bedrock, we hit bedrock.. No point in doing it if I'm not even gonna try to do it right, I figure.

Thanks for the advice all.

 

[wssix99]

Will rainwater collection and a cistern work for your needs? You get a good amount of rainfall in the summer, right?

 

[flat350]

"If it is not far I would run three lines. Loop two together so you can circulate hot water in if needed to unthaw. OR fill them with antifreeze and circulate it back and forth when the frost gets down to keep it unfrozen using the heat from the house or shop. Insulate them in a bundle and it will be real easy".

Do this and you should have the proper backflow protection if your tied into the homes water system or that antifreeze will killl someone and then add in the cost of the RPZ and a circ. pump.

Counting on thawing it when it freezes sounds good til the pipe bursts when it freezes and it will,then the line is junk.

 

[isaac338]

Here's a question - what kind of poly should I use for this application? I'm leaning towards the CSA-approved 160psi green stripe stuff.. I doubt my (city) water pressure will ever be that high, but I like the idea of having the thickest wall possible in case of the ground moving above the frost line. Thoughts? It's about $160+tax for a 200' spool, which is enough to run two and maybe even three pipes - one for water and one/two for backup.

 

[isaac338]

Pipe is in the ground - we hit bedrock at around 4 feet or so. I ran two 160psi poly pipes so I'm going to see how it goes this winter, and if it freezes, I'll spring for the in-the-pipe heat tape. Not the best solution, but I don't want to know what it would have cost me to bust through that bedrock.

Now the fun part - busting concrete out of the basement and garage slab to get the pipes in.