Water Pooling In Front Yard; Leak?
- Thread starter D45
- Start date
After reading numerous articles online and talking with neighbors, I have no doubt but to consider replacing the entire line
Black PB line *****
https://bestplumbers.com/dangers-of-polybutylene-pipe/
Black PB line *****
https://bestplumbers.com/dangers-of-polybutylene-pipe/
JDMopar
Well-known member
I think they mean when the PB pipe is IN the house. Yours is buried in the yard, and not the same kind of pipe like the gray stuff that would be used inside. If you can't repair the leak, rent a mini excavator, buy a little more than enough blue 3/4 pex pipe, and do it yourself. If I can do it, anybody can! Oh, and the time it takes you to do it is YOUR business, and nobody else's!
Bill Bowman
Well-known member
^^^Agreed. Not everyone is as capable as some of the "armchair commando's" that post their wisdom. D45. if you have trouble getting a hold of Roger, send me a pm. B
In my case it definitely was the pipe buried in the ground. 5 leaks in 6 months.
As to mentioning how long it has been, I believe in most cases, it was a warning as to how much more time/mess the job was going to be the longer he waited.
I'm surprised at the quote the OP received. Probably due to getting a quote as a package deal.
Would think coordinating a backhoe operator and a plumber separately would result in a much lower cost.Bill Bowman
Well-known member
I had a sewer blockage (big time) a couple of days before Thanksgiving. Had a guy run a camera through the line ( 1. to locate the line. 2. to find the blockage.) and he then gave me a quote of almost $8k to replace the defective line to the street. Topper was (and deal breaker), he said he could get some guys out in maybe 2-3 weeks! Thanksgiving day, I had a local good old boy dig and replace (I was his helper) the line for about 1/3 the previous quote. This was in about the same area as the OP is located, so I know there are some bandito's lurking.
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Besides trenching down and installing a new line you can look into pulling a new copper line through the existing line!
Here is one example where they did it themselves
http://www.oneprojectcloser.com/how-to-repair-underground-water-pipe/
They even sell a kit for doing it
https://www.pollardwater.com/pages_product/WW50050.asp
Or just find a plumber that does it
Here is one example where they did it themselves
http://www.oneprojectcloser.com/how-to-repair-underground-water-pipe/
They even sell a kit for doing it
https://www.pollardwater.com/pages_product/WW50050.asp
Or just find a plumber that does it
Rookie2
Well-known member
You have other utility lines on your property , be careful !
Ok here is my way of finding a leak. Turn the main off in the yard, turn the house inside off if you can, find a hose bib or faucet where you can attach an air compressor or up to 40 psi pressure (bottle or ?) . Pressure the incoming waterline slowly and go to the yard box and slowly open the water shutoff , you may want to cycle it on and off but don't leave it on.
Air will rise and carry water to the surface with it. It won't smack you in the face but it will eventually show up.
Don't dig near power lines !
Another thought ...... neighborhood water can follow a utility line trench (it they used crushed stone) and it may be just that. Or when the valve was changed by the previous owner they used stone after they dug their hole.
Ok here is my way of finding a leak. Turn the main off in the yard, turn the house inside off if you can, find a hose bib or faucet where you can attach an air compressor or up to 40 psi pressure (bottle or ?) . Pressure the incoming waterline slowly and go to the yard box and slowly open the water shutoff , you may want to cycle it on and off but don't leave it on.
Air will rise and carry water to the surface with it. It won't smack you in the face but it will eventually show up.
Don't dig near power lines !
Another thought ...... neighborhood water can follow a utility line trench (it they used crushed stone) and it may be just that. Or when the valve was changed by the previous owner they used stone after they dug their hole.
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pstnbly
Well-known member
Black poly pipe is PE, not PB. Polyethylene. Most likely the problem is the grade of PE pipe used in the neighborhood. PE comes in many grades 100, 160, 200psi and so on. The only PE I have ever seen leak in service is 100psi pipe. I've installed miles of 160, 200psi pipe and have worked on systems 60 + years old. The only leaks have been at fittings or damage from digging and the like. Only use brass or stainless barb fittings with double clamps underground.
Any idea if this is the dreaded polybutene line from the late 1970s and 1980s?
https://bestplumbers.com/dangers-of-polybutylene-pipe/
https://bestplumbers.com/dangers-of-polybutylene-pipe/
Rookie2
Well-known member
Maybe, don't know. But back in the early 60's my house had this run to the barn ,buried only about 24" down. It was as stated before that they used a 100psi or less rated line and the weight of the soil (back fill) collapsed the line over the years and it cracks.
When I dug it up , it was so thin I couldn't believe it.
Find the leak then determine why it leaked . You will have a couple options depending on what you find, repair, dig it up and replace or find a company with a knocker and pull a new pex thru the old line or near by.
mine is 3/4" PERMA-LINE about 1/8" wall thickness
When I dug it up , it was so thin I couldn't believe it.
Find the leak then determine why it leaked . You will have a couple options depending on what you find, repair, dig it up and replace or find a company with a knocker and pull a new pex thru the old line or near by.
mine is 3/4" PERMA-LINE about 1/8" wall thickness
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pstnbly
Well-known member
Any idea if this is the dreaded polybutene line from the late 1970s and 1980s?
https://bestplumbers.com/dangers-of-polybutylene-pipe/
That is polyethylene PE pipe and it appears to be 100psi pipe. 160psi will not sweep like that, way to tight a radius.
Rookie2
Well-known member
if your not standing in water , move
Styx
Well-known member
I don't know what the fuss is people pay big money for built in lawn sprinkler systems...lol...
Dig down at the box and follow it to the house. lots of digging but you will probably be replacing the line anyways...
Cheers Randy...
Dig down at the box and follow it to the house. lots of digging but you will probably be replacing the line anyways...
Cheers Randy...
jim whitney
Well-known member
D45 the reason the water is running out away from the curb stop is the green line sprayed next to the blue line on the curb. The blue line indicates your water line, the green line indicates your sewers line. Sewer Lines are usually bedded in crushed stone,the point of least resistance for water. If you can shut the water off at the curb stop and control it then digging it yourself and repairing it its your best option ( not a big deal ) I did it for 31 years 3/4 inch Polly. Is easy .try 12 inch mains 6 feet deep at minus 20 degrees in March at 2 am. You,ll be fine ,just a little muddy
pstnbly
Well-known member
..........and this means what to me?
Thanks
Some neighbors have said they thought the PO had replaced the entire PB line years and years ago, but cannot verify it
It means you have the lowest grade polyethylene pipe. It is not polybutylene as you feared. Read back through my posts, I discuss all of this. This is what I do for a living.
As to pulling a new line through the old one. The existing water main in your home is only 3/4" ( 1" is standard these days for residential ). To pull a new line through the old it will have to be 1/2" resulting in a severe reduction in capacity to your water system, not recommended or probably legal for that matter.
OP . . . If you decide to abandon the old water line, you could also pay for horizontal bore with a Ditch Witch or Vermeer machine. You will need hole dug to depth at both ends, and longer trenched opening out near street for boring machine to get going below frost line.
This would avoid digging to depth the entire way.
This would avoid digging to depth the entire way.
It looks to me like the 'cutter head' they use actually splits the existing line and expands it - allowing you to pull a larger line than just pulling it through the existing line
I am not a 'plumber' but if I was in the OP's situation - I am pretty sure I would give this a try or at least find a real plumber that uses this method. No reason to dig up your entire front yard if you don't have to
here is another example
http://www.footagetools.com/product/service-line-replacement-tools
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When my line was replaced the water company originally said it was going to pull a new line. Ended up not doing it due to the length of the the run. I believe they said the limit was 100ft..anything longer would require 2 pulls and a splice.The only other issue they mentioned was that any previous repairs could cause the new line to get hung up..
pstnbly
Well-known member
Yes that may work with some exceptions. The first being the op will need to dig next to the house near the foundation penetration. Why you may ask. Here's why, in order for the splitting bullet to be pulled through the wall the penetration must be enlarged to allow clearance for all the material and the bullet. Well that can be done from the inside you may say, and while that may be true what can't be done on the inside is resealing the penetration. That will have to be done outside.
Were I to use this method I would excavate outside the foundation at the wall, cut the pipe, and pull the splitter though from outside. I would then remove the old pipe in the penetration and place the new part through the wall and proceed with sealing the penetration. You will never get a good seal to the foundation with the new pipe pulled through a split pipe in the wall. So digging outside is a necessity.
By the time you (meaning the generic you) excavate 2 sites (at the wall and at the curbstop) in the yard and attempt the pull though technique and struggle down in those pits I'm sure I could have the line excavated and pipe back in the ditch on this job.
That being said, if it were my home I would find the leak, dig down and attempt a spot repair. If it happens again then I would consider replacement. I had a customer once with a similar situation. 600' of old 100psi PE pipe from his well with an obvious leak. 3 plumbing companies called out and none could locate the leak. I found the leak in half an hour by connecting an air line and pressurizing the line.
Bubbles were found at the edge of a pond in a swamp. Just imagine the expense of replacing that 600' foot line through a swamp, under the pond to the well. My quote was $10,000. We opted for repair.
The line was 30 years old at the time of the repair. I got a call about 10 years later for another leak, repeat process, good to go. $1200 worth of repairs vs. $10,000.
I found this guy, about 15 miles away
http://www.mrrooter.com/residential-services/water-line-replacement-installations/
Trenchless water line replacement......I am calling tomorrow for quote
I dug again today for 2 more hours, still cant find that water line.......rather comical
I am now close to 60" deep!
http://www.mrrooter.com/residential-services/water-line-replacement-installations/
Trenchless water line replacement......I am calling tomorrow for quote
I dug again today for 2 more hours, still cant find that water line.......rather comical
I am now close to 60" deep!
redmondjp
Well-known member
The water line to my house, at places, is about 8' deep. When they built the housing development, they installed the water lines, and then brought in several feet of fill and placed it over the top. Crazy. If it ever leaks (it's thinwall PVC so it's just a matter of time), it will be abandoned in place and a new PE line installed far closer to the surface!
Rookie2
Well-known member
So....what mr.rooter say ?
^^^^ This
I had to locate my sewer line in the front yard because we wanted to T into it for our RV pad. I paid a plumber to come out and scope the line and he told me where it was and at what depth - he was pretty accurate. Had to go down 6' to find it in a little hole about 2' x 2'
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I was told by 6 difference plumbing companies they cannot and do not scope water lines
This would have atleast told me what happened, and where
I am having a new line ran, using 1" PEX, from the curb valve to the house
The old line will just be abandoned, and the hole will be reused in the basement
I just finished removing four bushes and relocating them temp containers, along with moving all the mulch, landscape lights, wiring, and about 10 edging blocks
The job is a one day gig and will be $3500
Sad, out of 15 places I called........only two wanted the job
One estimate was $3100 just to dig, find the break, and repair it
So, for $3500..........I get a new line
The guy did tell me that so far this year, he performed very similar job for over 30 houses.........all from houses built in the late 1970s (mine is 1978)
Oh well, the joys of being a homeowner..........there goes the hot rod fund
This would have atleast told me what happened, and where
I am having a new line ran, using 1" PEX, from the curb valve to the house
The old line will just be abandoned, and the hole will be reused in the basement
I just finished removing four bushes and relocating them temp containers, along with moving all the mulch, landscape lights, wiring, and about 10 edging blocks
The job is a one day gig and will be $3500
Sad, out of 15 places I called........only two wanted the job
One estimate was $3100 just to dig, find the break, and repair it
So, for $3500..........I get a new line
The guy did tell me that so far this year, he performed very similar job for over 30 houses.........all from houses built in the late 1970s (mine is 1978)
Oh well, the joys of being a homeowner..........there goes the hot rod fund
pstnbly
Well-known member
I would not be running pex. I would run 160 or 200psi PE pipe. Unless it is specifically rated pex it is much less robust than PE. Bedding in sand is always a good idea, it protects the pipe and is a marker should any digging need to be done in the future.
I have to agree with others, if I were replacing a water line for my house I would want the plumber to go with 160/200 PSI PE or go with HDPE (High Density Polyethylene). HDPE is commonly used for geothermal loops and can take the weight and abuse one would want a water line to be able to deal with (not that it should be abused...).
Most commonly available PEX formulas are not rated or intended for underground (or even basic outdoor) runs. They should be using a PEX version specifically rated for direct burial for potable water.
Most commonly available PEX formulas are not rated or intended for underground (or even basic outdoor) runs. They should be using a PEX version specifically rated for direct burial for potable water.
Q - Can PEX be used for underground cold-water service applications?
A - Yes. Although the high temperature resistance of PEX makes it particularly suitable for hot and cold interior plumbing applications, it also makes an excellent underground water service piping. It can be installed using the same fittings recommended for copper tube sized SDR-9 polyethylene tubing.
PEX tubing is approved for direct burial outdoors, a practice most often necessary when running a water supply line to a house. PEX, since it can expand, resists freezing more effectively than rigid pipe, but PEX can still burst if water freezes in a line. As a result, it’s a must to bury the tubing below the frost line. The depth of the frost line in a given area can be obtained by contacting the municipality or local water company. Although an unbroken line of PEX would be ideal, dezincification-resistant brass PEX fittings or plastic PEX fittings should be used in areas known to have aggressive water or soil when a fitting is necessary. Stainless steel clamp rings are a better choice than copper crimp rings due to their increased corrosion resistance.
Residential water supply lines generally use 3/4” pipe (occasionally 1”). SupplyHouse carries PEX-B tubing in these sizes, as well as PEX-A rated AquaPEX and pre-insulated AquaPEX. Sleeving the buried PEX (in PVC, for example) shields the tubing and can make potential repairs easier. Embedding PEX in sand protects it from any rocks in the soil. Always check with all applicable local codes prior to installation.
A - Yes. Although the high temperature resistance of PEX makes it particularly suitable for hot and cold interior plumbing applications, it also makes an excellent underground water service piping. It can be installed using the same fittings recommended for copper tube sized SDR-9 polyethylene tubing.
PEX tubing is approved for direct burial outdoors, a practice most often necessary when running a water supply line to a house. PEX, since it can expand, resists freezing more effectively than rigid pipe, but PEX can still burst if water freezes in a line. As a result, it’s a must to bury the tubing below the frost line. The depth of the frost line in a given area can be obtained by contacting the municipality or local water company. Although an unbroken line of PEX would be ideal, dezincification-resistant brass PEX fittings or plastic PEX fittings should be used in areas known to have aggressive water or soil when a fitting is necessary. Stainless steel clamp rings are a better choice than copper crimp rings due to their increased corrosion resistance.
Residential water supply lines generally use 3/4” pipe (occasionally 1”). SupplyHouse carries PEX-B tubing in these sizes, as well as PEX-A rated AquaPEX and pre-insulated AquaPEX. Sleeving the buried PEX (in PVC, for example) shields the tubing and can make potential repairs easier. Embedding PEX in sand protects it from any rocks in the soil. Always check with all applicable local codes prior to installation.
csp
Well-known member
Despite what your cut and paste from some google search tells you, not all PEX is rated for burial.
You have at least one person who does this for a living recommending minimum 160psi PE (hint, hint).
You have at least one person who does this for a living recommending minimum 160psi PE (hint, hint).
All done and installed...........excavator really did fast work for the trench, but did not do a good job (at all) of leveling or grading anything out.
They did not hit or find any tree roots, which is good for my tree, but odd also
The ground was VERY soaked, wet and HEAVY.......so I am going to let the ground settle and dry out for a few weeks, before doing any more work
I will replant the bushes, mulch, landscape lighting, and brick edging tomorrow
Thankfully, they were able to find the old line and re-use the pre-existing hole in the foundation
Upgraded from a 3/4" line to a 1" line
So far this year, they have replaced buried black plastic water house supply lines in over 30 houses.........$$$$$$$$$$
My water pressure is strong now and I will replace the hole house sediment filter this weekend
They did not hit or find any tree roots, which is good for my tree, but odd also
The ground was VERY soaked, wet and HEAVY.......so I am going to let the ground settle and dry out for a few weeks, before doing any more work
I will replant the bushes, mulch, landscape lighting, and brick edging tomorrow
Thankfully, they were able to find the old line and re-use the pre-existing hole in the foundation
Upgraded from a 3/4" line to a 1" line
So far this year, they have replaced buried black plastic water house supply lines in over 30 houses.........$$$$$$$$$$
My water pressure is strong now and I will replace the hole house sediment filter this weekend
