Water / Sewer to Garage...

[Jey]

I'm curious...

I've been looking at a piece of proprety, there is a 3 acre and a 5 acre parcle,

I am trying to buy them together as they're right next door to each other.

As it goes the 3 acre passes a perk test, and requires an engineered septic field, which is almost to be expected in the area, but the 5 acre won't perk.

So the general question i have is... I know they'll let me build my garage over there something like a nice 60x40 structure, but I wonder



Can i route water and drains from the garage back to the septic field and have it all legit? I would like to have a pisser and a sink my garage.

I've never built anything before so i am very new to most of this ****!


Thanks!!

 

[BoostAddiction]

I'm curious...

I've been looking at a piece of proprety, there is a 3 acre and a 5 acre parcle,

I am trying to buy them together as they're right next door to each other.

As it goes the 3 acre passes a perk test, and requires an engineered septic field, which is almost to be expected in the area, but the 5 acre won't perk.

So the general question i have is... I know they'll let me build my garage over there something like a nice 60x40 structure, but I wonder



Can i route water and drains from the garage back to the septic field and have it all legit? I would like to have a pisser and a sink my garage.

I've never built anything before so i am very new to most of this ****!


Thanks!!

I'm sure local laws apply, but in my case, our septic field is about a quarter mile from the house. We have two pumps that pump effluent from a holding tank in the back yard, uphill to the street, then another 800 feet down the street, then about 600 feet to the field.

Assuming your garage is near the septic lines, I'm sure you could tap in physically; you'd need to be sure it was OK with your locality at the planning stages first.


-Will

 

[bluesman2a]

OK this brings up a question I've been kicking around. In planning the build for my new shop, the site is downhill from the house. The house is on septic (also above the shop). I hear tell some things only run down-hill.

So with this in mind, how big a PITA is it to plan on a bathroom on the shop? What type of costs is that going to add (just the pump/plumbing setup to get it to the septic field)?

 

[John Larson]

I don't know the answer to Jey's question but I think for bluesman, I'm no plumber mind you but my brother is, I think I'd put in a holding tank and lift pump at your shop and plumb that into your existing septic tank up the hill. I have even seen some ads in the back of home-improvement mags for this http://www.watergenie.com/
It'll only pump 12' vertical, but it is an option out there.

 

[Old Moparz]

About 10 or 12 years ago, I had worked with a licensed land surveyor in New York who did perk tests. One thing I recall, is that if a perk test had failed in one location on the property, you were allowed to try another location. Your state, county, or whichever municipality that oversees the septic system & approvals, should have this info. Sometimes it's the County Dept. of Health.

Just a suggestion, I would try to get the lot to pass the perk test & not just consider it unbuildable, or restrict it for just the garage or an accessory building. It would be a big plus for you, as an investment, to keep it as a buildable lot. You never know what may happen in the future if you ever had to sell & 2 buildable lots with septic designs or approvals are worth more.

As far as running waste lines to the septic on the adjacent lot, that could work depending on the grade (slope of the land) but might not be allowed legally without a lot line change. That would make the 3 & 5 acre lots, become one 8 acre lot. (Something I would not want to do for the reason I stated above.) If you are allowed to do it without a lot line change, it might be worth it.

 

[Jey]

I had no idea owning a piece of america was such a pain in the ***...


the problem with the 3 acres is that it's got a low grade near the rear of the plot, going to a wetland area...


honestly between this conversation, and the one i just had with my dad, i don't think i want anything to do with this property. It's just for the price and the neighborhood i thought it might be worth working out.

as it goes... I've got nothing but time.

Anyone in northern metro detroit/southern flint fenton michigan area, with land for sale Let me know!

 

[cc_rider]

None of the issues raised is a show-stopper, as you can see there's ways to deal with the shop sewer service, whether it's another field or a lift pump or whatever. There's no reason for this one thing to be the deal breaker. A lift pump is not that big a deal, and there may be a place that'll pass a perc test. Or there's a different type of septic field that's more like a deep hole than a field; all kinds of ways to work around the problem.

In the old days we didn't have any building regulations or codes. Ah, bliss, right? Wrong. House fires were common, for a host of reasons including substandard (actually, NO standard) wiring, plumbing (including natural gas), and construction. Illnesses were spread through improperly contained waste. And if you ended up buying a house with such dangerous situations, tough toenails buddy; you bought it, you own it.
When was the last time there was an outbreak of cholera in the U.S.? It used to be a fairly common occurence due to improperly (un)treated water. We as a society decided it was better to regulate some things in the name of safety. Governments are generally laissez-faire until some event sparks enough public attention to demand action. Like the fire at The Cocoanut Grove in 1942 where 492 people died; that disaster led to sweeping changes in the fire safety code. That one event led to: public access doors opening outward, fire exits marked and unlocked, etc.

To be fair, regulations can (and often do) go too far. Sometimes it's due to a bureaucrat taking a particularly tight definition of a rule, or an overzealous inspector, or even corrupt officials creating codes that benefit a particular group (usually themselves).

Enough ranting; the thin air on top of this soapbox is making me dizzy. If you really like the property and the price, there's no need to nix the deal. A good architect and construction company can find ways around the problems without breaking the bank.

Good Luck, and keep us posted!

c.

 

[Jey]

None of the issues raised is a show-stopper, as you can see there's ways to deal with the shop sewer service, whether it's another field or a lift pump or whatever. There's no reason for this one thing to be the deal breaker. A lift pump is not that big a deal, and there may be a place that'll pass a perc test. Or there's a different type of septic field that's more like a deep hole than a field; all kinds of ways to work around the problem.

In the old days we didn't have any building regulations or codes. Ah, bliss, right? Wrong. House fires were common, for a host of reasons including substandard (actually, NO standard) wiring, plumbing (including natural gas), and construction. Illnesses were spread through improperly contained waste. And if you ended up buying a house with such dangerous situations, tough toenails buddy; you bought it, you own it.
When was the last time there was an outbreak of cholera in the U.S.? It used to be a fairly common occurence due to improperly (un)treated water. We as a society decided it was better to regulate some things in the name of safety. Governments are generally laissez-faire until some event sparks enough public attention to demand action. Like the fire at The Cocoanut Grove in 1942 where 492 people died; that disaster led to sweeping changes in the fire safety code. That one event led to: public access doors opening outward, fire exits marked and unlocked, etc.

To be fair, regulations can (and often do) go too far. Sometimes it's due to a bureaucrat taking a particularly tight definition of a rule, or an overzealous inspector, or even corrupt officials creating codes that benefit a particular group (usually themselves).

Enough ranting; the thin air on top of this soapbox is making me dizzy. If you really like the property and the price, there's no need to nix the deal. A good architect and construction company can find ways around the problems without breaking the bank.

Good Luck, and keep us posted!

c.

i completely agree with what you're saying. I realize the codes aren't there to hinder my desires to build my hobby shop.

It's just that buying more inexpensive land and then having to build 20,000 dollars worth of spetic ****, isn't worth it if i can just buy a large piece of land for 20,000 more, and have nothing like this to worry about.

Either way, I will pay for it, but I think for the headache, i would rather pay for it upfront and not have to worry about the engineering requirements later.

Does that make sense?

 

[cc_rider]

Oh yeah Jey, you're right on target. If you can get another property without all the issues, even if it costs more up front, you're probably better off. Around Austin land is getting freakin' ridiculous, and finding a piece you like is darn near impossible; once you do, you've gotta be prepared to jump through some major hoops to build on it. If you can avoid the hassles by simply buying something else, by all means go for it.

And I didn't really mean to defend the byzantine process of permits, codes and ordnances; they really do get ridiculous. I'm embroiled in a neighborhood battle right now; a couple neighbors want to build zero-lot-line structures. Which honestly I wouldn't care all that much about, except those setback requirements are designed to make sure Fire Department personnel can get access all around (among other reasons.) These houses are 80-year-old wood; they'd go up in a flash. Plus I've decided the city inspectors are a bunch of idiots; I've had to dig up the actual code and show it to them before they'd believe I was in compliance. We've all got stories of inspectors going nuts over a nonexistent code. Which wouldn't bother me so much if I knew the big developers were getting the same treatment, but I've seen those houses, and it's obvious the inspector never even got out of his truck! Wonder if someone's getting their back scratched?

Whew! Another rant! Stop me before I rave again!

Keep us posted...

c.

 

[Louver Dude]

Well Guys, I'll give you my 2 cents Codes In MI are close to what they are here in Wi. The code states floor drains can drain to daylight if not to cause a nuisance ( residential ). As for a bath room depending on the area they might give you a temporary holding tank permit which when you build a house can be converted with a pump to pump it to the house and the attached septic system. Price for a 2000 gal holding tank should be less then 3k and would not be wasted if you use it as a pumping station after the house is in.

 

[sasquatchpa]

I feel your pain! I am in Clio, 20 miles north of you. I have owned 8 3/4 acres for 25 years. 4 years ago I started the permit process and I get to break ground this spring. It seems the state flew over land in the mid-80's and determined if it was wetland. Never informed land owners,waited until the landowner wants to build and says "nope, that's a wetland and you have to prove us wrong. Heres a list of surveyors we like." I got the fed dept. of agriculture do soil boring on my "Hobby Farm" ( like 10 tomato plants ) and when the feds said it wasn't a wetland the state only took a couple months to agree. Anyway, before you buy any land in Genessee county, check with the Drain comissoner. They have to give a permit, even if theres no water or drain in the building, before any city or township can issue a building permit.
Good luck!

 

[Jey]

I feel your pain! I am in Clio, 20 miles north of you. I have owned 8 3/4 acres for 25 years. 4 years ago I started the permit process and I get to break ground this spring. It seems the state flew over land in the mid-80's and determined if it was wetland. Never informed land owners,waited until the landowner wants to build and says "nope, that's a wetland and you have to prove us wrong. Heres a list of surveyors we like." I got the fed dept. of agriculture do soil boring on my "Hobby Farm" ( like 10 tomato plants ) and when the feds said it wasn't a wetland the state only took a couple months to agree. Anyway, before you buy any land in Genessee county, check with the Drain comissoner. They have to give a permit, even if theres no water or drain in the building, before any city or township can issue a building permit.
Good luck!

I was born and raised in clio. Wish work still provided me the ability to live up that way, because the land, is hella cheaper!

 

[russlaferrera]

I have a 30X50 garage w/a full bath. I use a 275 gallon old oil tank buried in the back yard The house is on a for real septic system. IMHO it was not cost effective to tap into the house or put another real septic /field in. I have been using this for 14 years. I have never had it cleaned out. There are 2-3 people a day who utilize it.

How much poop do you expect? Bury the tank, add a truck of stone, put some holes in the tank for drainage. You are done ...

 

[Satatic]

Well there is an alternative to the perc test. You can have a soil scientist take a sample of the soil and analize it in a lab. They will determine if it is able to to have a conventional septic or not. Or you could do an ariation unit... but having something that runs 24 hours a day for a garage that gets a toilet flush twice a day is not very practical. But if its your only legal option I guess it would have to do.

 

[Down Under Bloke]

Perc / Perk ??????

 

[Jey]

I have a 30X50 garage w/a full bath. I use a 275 gallon old oil tank buried in the back yard The house is on a for real septic system. IMHO it was not cost effective to tap into the house or put another real septic /field in. I have been using this for 14 years. I have never had it cleaned out. There are 2-3 people a day who utilize it.

How much poop do you expect? Bury the tank, add a truck of stone, put some holes in the tank for drainage. You are done ...

wow. that's gross.


Perk Test:

Percolation Test

The percolation test consists of a hole 6-12 inches in diameter dug in the area of the proposed septic system. The depth of this hole varies depending on the soils encountered but it is generally not greater than 24 inches. The hole is initially filled with water (presoak) in an attempt to saturate the soil, allowed to drain away and than refilled with approximately 12 inches of water. The rate at which the water drops in the hole is measured at intervals over a period of time ranging from 30-60 minutes. The uniform slowest rate of drop of the water level over a measured time interval is converted to minutes per inch and used as a basis of design in determining the septic system size. For example, if the water dropped uniformly 1\4 inch every five minutes the rate would be 20 minutes per inch. The Health Code provides a simple table that determines the size of the system based on the measured perk rate and the number of bedrooms in the home. The greater the number of bedrooms and the slower the percolation rate, the larger the system required. Commercial systems are sized using the perk rate and projected estimates of water usage in gallons per day.

 

[DUG3x3]

I'm curious...

I've been looking at a piece of proprety, there is a 3 acre and a 5 acre parcle,

I am trying to buy them together as they're right next door to each other.

As it goes the 3 acre passes a perk test, and requires an engineered septic field, which is almost to be expected in the area, but the 5 acre won't perk.

So the general question i have is... I know they'll let me build my garage over there something like a nice 60x40 structure, but I wonder



Can i route water and drains from the garage back to the septic field and have it all legit? I would like to have a pisser and a sink my garage.

I've never built anything before so i am very new to most of this ****!


Thanks!!

JEy, you should be able to run water over to your shop. Keep it below frost of course. The septic as well can run or be pumped over to the other house lot. Just make sure you tell the soil evaluator to include your shop in his figures for the engineered septic system. doug

 

[russlaferrera]

jey, Gross is when you know the sewage perks down to the water table, into your well and you have to drink it...russ

 

[Jey]

jey, Gross is when you know the sewage perks down to the water table, into your well and you have to drink it...russ

All I can think of is this demo i did for my parents before they built their summer home.

There were 3 houses on the property.

house #1 was built around an airstream trailer. It, the trailer was used as the kitchen bed room, and a sitting room / bathroom was built from scraps. Very nice place.

house #2 was built around a milk truck. Luckly I was able to salvage the milk truck. There it was. frame, motor and all. The just built the floor up to the side and made it a room!

House #3 was decent, until we tore it down, to find the Row boat with wood nailed over the top of it. You guessed it. That row boat, was house 1,2 & 3's septic tank. Very nicely done. And i wondered why the locals had arms growing out of their heads...

 

[Blue]

I don't know if what russlaferrera did was gross. If it works, and the water percs through the ground OK, and dosen't get into anyone's well water, then he's in good shape. And if a septic system works perfectly, you shouldn't ever have to pump ot out, right? Everything should decompose and flow out of the thing.

I seem to remeber someone mentioning on this site, or maybe another one, about burying an old Sabb sedan for a septic tank..........

 

[russlaferrera]

Blue, I was just kidding with Jey about gross. I hope Jey was not offended.

All sewage will get down to the water table Hopefully it will be filtered by then. I am on 2 ac. so it is not to much of a problem. However I had to change my way of thinking from living in urban areas to the country. I no longer drain antifreeze on the ground or throw hazardous chem. like I did before. AS Jey stated " the locals had arms growing out of their heads"

I do feel that the net has opened up a lot of different views on many subjects. There is still a much needed understanding. Everyone looks at what they do or where the live and assume it is like that all over the country/world. There are so many circumstances that affect what we do that my seam strange to others. Then again people are strange and out there.

Sorry for the long edit. I am working to improve my 2 finger typing skills. But my spelling still *****....russ

 

[Jey]

Blue, I was just kidding with Jey about gross. I hope Jey was not offended.

All sewage will get down to the water table Hopefully it will be filtered by then. I am on 2 ac. so it is not to much of a problem. However I had to change my way of thinking from living in urban areas to the country. I no longer drain antifreeze on the ground or throw hazardous chem. like I did before. AS Jey stated " the locals had arms growing out of their heads"

I do feel that the net has opened up a lot of different views on many subjects. There is still a much needed understanding. Everyone looks at what they do or where the live and assume it is like that all over the country/world. There are so many circumstances that affect what we do that my seam strange to others. Then again people are strange and out there.

Sorry for the long edit. I am working to improve my 2 finger typing skills. But my spelling still *****....russ

Mostly when I read your previous comment it just made me angry because I wished it was all that easy around here...

In general I know little to nothing about what it is I am trying to do. So, thats why i come to resources like this.

I just want a kickass house and garage so i can stop thinking about how bad I want a kickass house and garage and get on with my life.

So far... outlook not so good. But, i did find a bank repo yesterday that looks like it has some potental... we'll see what the realtor says today.

 

[Satatic]

I don't know if what russlaferrera did was gross. If it works, and the water percs through the ground OK, and dosen't get into anyone's well water, then he's in good shape. And if a septic system works perfectly, you shouldn't ever have to pump ot out, right? Everything should decompose and flow out of the thing.

I seem to remeber someone mentioning on this site, or maybe another one, about burying an old Sabb sedan for a septic tank..........

It does need pumped. See the only thing that is soposed to flow out is the waters. The solids are soposed to build up untill before they reach the bottom of the baffel. Then they need to be pumped out. Now its not very practical to go out there with a stick or something and try to measure so start out geting it pumped every 2 years. Be there when its pumped and you can check out where the level of your solids are. Then that will be your guide on how often it does actually need pumped. I know the comercials for rid-x try to sell their product saying that they will make all the solids decompose and flow out of your tank but that is actually a bad thing when thats happening to much. Water is water, it is able to be absorbed. Anything decomposed is not water and it can not be absorbed. Thats what all that nasty black stuff is when you dig up the trenches. Solids that were once suspended and flowed out of the tank only to settle in the fields.

 

[russlaferrera]

JEY, Keep the faith. You know it takes opportunity and luck to find a great deal. They are out there! I wish you the best...russ

 

[rodnok1]

I can tell you around NC it can be a major pain to get septic approved. I had the inspector come out and tell me where I could not put my septic, then tells me to move all my buildings around...the guy didn't have a clue. When I told him I wanted to put bathroom in pole barn he still wanted the septic tank as far away as it could be from barn, took forever to get him to agree to moving it away from the house and closer to actuall field. I plan on using a samll tank with macerator pump and send it all over to main tank. He wants a small septic tank then just fluids to distrib tank, that would be alot harder to accomplish due to distr box location.