I installed a water softener when I built my house 3 years ago. I bought online and it's a Fleck 5600sxt valve Water Softener 64,000 Grain Capacity (Fine Mesh for Iron Removal). It works great to remove the iron but it's not working well to remove the hard water stains. Washing my truck is terrible and our shower door is scaley mess and so are our glasses. Any suggestions for a different type of media? Do some softeners use 2 different media cylinders?
Water Softener Advice
- Thread starter climb.on
- Start date
PelicanPines
ALLIANCE MEMBER
Which salt are you using ?
Do you know the PH of the water?
Do you know the PH of the water?
Well.
Don't know the PH, but I could test that with my hot tub test kit I suppose. I use the yellow salt, usually from Menards. I forget the name, Crystal something maybe.... but not Morton's.
fuggle
Well-known member
The short answer to your question is yes. Other manufacturers separate the iron filtering from softening. I have such a system. Before you spend a bunch of money on a new whole house system you could try the portable tanks for softening water specifically designed for washing cars. Basically it is a salt tank which goes in-line on your garden hose when washing cars.
You should test your water pre and post filtering to make sure you have the right system for your water conditions. The tests aren't terribly expensive.
PelicanPines
ALLIANCE MEMBER
Yea... test it. If it below 6 you will also need a "Neutralizer Tank" It should be 7.2ish
I use the yellow salt. Make sure it's doing the backwash cycle at least twice a week. Mine was set for 3 times at first. If you run out of salt or don't have the automatic backwash thing setup... the water stays messed up.
For the record... I use ONE blue bag of salt each year. The rest are yellow. Doesn't really matter the whose they are. I get Morton's from Tractor Supply.
sky jumper
Well-known member
- Joined
- Mar 13, 2018
- Messages
- 127
i've had a lot of experience battling iron laden well water. here's the short version:
- a water softener will remove iron when its new. but salt regeneration doesn't remove the iron from the softener. fine mesh doesn't matter. over time as the residual iron builds up on the resin the softener's capacity will decrease until it no longer works. this can take 1-3 years depending on how much iron is in the water.
- Resin cleaners *must* be used to remove the iron from the softener resin. This is not optional. I know you said it removes iron just fine... ok, but that will not last much longer if you don't clean it. if ignored the resin will become iron fouled, guaranteed. The popular cleaners are Rescare (phosphoric acid), Iron Out (I don't like this stuff), and citric acid. you can buy bulk food grade citric acid on Amazon and add the powder to your salt tank. there's also a product called "crystal clean" which is expensive but totally works better than anything else. I've used a combination of all 3 with good results.
- the "rust fighting salts" just use citric acid and not enough to do a really good job cleaning. better to get the bulk powder and add it yourself so you can control the dosage.
- most wells with iron also have iron bacteria and it makes matters much worse. I don't have time to go into that now.
- another good option is to get a dedicated ozone based iron filter with Katalox light filter media. I have one of these and it works very well. regular "air injection" iron filters do not work, period.
- you need to test both hardness and iron of your raw well water and the softened water to really know what you're dealing with. and to ensure your softener is programmed correctly. without the tests you can only guess as to how often the unit should regenerate and with how much salt.
i could go on but i'll pause for now.
- a water softener will remove iron when its new. but salt regeneration doesn't remove the iron from the softener. fine mesh doesn't matter. over time as the residual iron builds up on the resin the softener's capacity will decrease until it no longer works. this can take 1-3 years depending on how much iron is in the water.
- Resin cleaners *must* be used to remove the iron from the softener resin. This is not optional. I know you said it removes iron just fine... ok, but that will not last much longer if you don't clean it. if ignored the resin will become iron fouled, guaranteed. The popular cleaners are Rescare (phosphoric acid), Iron Out (I don't like this stuff), and citric acid. you can buy bulk food grade citric acid on Amazon and add the powder to your salt tank. there's also a product called "crystal clean" which is expensive but totally works better than anything else. I've used a combination of all 3 with good results.
- the "rust fighting salts" just use citric acid and not enough to do a really good job cleaning. better to get the bulk powder and add it yourself so you can control the dosage.
- most wells with iron also have iron bacteria and it makes matters much worse. I don't have time to go into that now.
- another good option is to get a dedicated ozone based iron filter with Katalox light filter media. I have one of these and it works very well. regular "air injection" iron filters do not work, period.
- you need to test both hardness and iron of your raw well water and the softened water to really know what you're dealing with. and to ensure your softener is programmed correctly. without the tests you can only guess as to how often the unit should regenerate and with how much salt.
i could go on but i'll pause for now.
Great info. Thanks. I did just recently replace the media in the tank due to a warranty issue with the float mechanism not working for a couple months and we couldn't decontaminate the media with Iron Out, so they sent me new stuff. I'll locate a test kit report back with some numbers. Thanks again.
Upon buying this house 30 yrs. ago, we found we had the WORST, darkest, hideous smelling water I'd ever seen...
We bought a KINETICO water system, which included a separate carbon filter unit under the kitchen sink solely
for drinking (removes salt!)...for $2,000....I know it's more like $3500 or more now...but we're SOLD on it, NO
moving parts (only a plastic disc that rotates with water flow to regenerate, etc.)....NEVER did anything to it
but add pellets salt, and it hasn't missed a beat...GR8 WATER!
I DID take it upon myself to flush & change the resin in the 2 tanks, and cleaned out the salt tank...piece o' cake,
and even the original resin still looked damn good! I would not hesitate to buy another Kinetico if we had to!!
We bought a KINETICO water system, which included a separate carbon filter unit under the kitchen sink solely
for drinking (removes salt!)...for $2,000....I know it's more like $3500 or more now...but we're SOLD on it, NO
moving parts (only a plastic disc that rotates with water flow to regenerate, etc.)....NEVER did anything to it
but add pellets salt, and it hasn't missed a beat...GR8 WATER!
I DID take it upon myself to flush & change the resin in the 2 tanks, and cleaned out the salt tank...piece o' cake,
and even the original resin still looked damn good! I would not hesitate to buy another Kinetico if we had to!!
sky jumper
Well-known member
- Joined
- Mar 13, 2018
- Messages
- 127
that Hach Ha-77 is my preferred hardness & iron test kit. $120 on Amazon. that may sound expensive but once you start using it you'll easily see its a good value. you can't rely on the test strips, especially for iron they are not reliable. everyone on well water should have this kit.
I'll say your symptoms are strange. usually if the resin is unable to remove hardness it will also be unable to remove iron. but you say no iron in the conditioned water. perhaps the raw water has very little iron, or maybe the hardness scale you are seeing is actually salt residue that didn't get rinsed from the resin tank due to some valve issue or a problem with the riser tube. I'm just throwing out ideas here, I can't say without seeing test results. the hach ha-77 is your good friend in situations like this.
I was looking at the Hatch kits this morning. On your advice, I went ahead and ordered the HA-77. It never occurred to me that it could actually be salt residue. Interesting. Well no point in guessing, I suppose. I'll do the tests when I get them and go from there.
pcmeiners
Well-known member
"- a water softener will remove iron when its new. but salt regeneration doesn't remove the iron from the softener. fine mesh doesn't matter. over time as the residual iron builds up on the resin the softener's capacity will decrease until it no longer works."
Aside from not having a sufficient pre-filter, this is primarily due insufficient back washing, either from not enough backwash flow or insufficient back-flow time/cycles. Ps for homeowners with rented equipment, don't expect the Culligan man to maintain the system correctly.
"- the "rust fighting salts" just use citric acid and not enough to do a really good job cleaning. better to get the bulk powder and add it yourself so you can control the dosage."
Ebay also sells in bulk, citric acid is a safe acid to use
"- most wells with iron also have iron bacteria and it makes matters much worse. I don't have time to go into that now."
Basically with an iron bacteria problem, you need a sediment pre filter, than a sufficient Ultra violet sterilizer; pre-filter so no large particles containing/shielding bacteria exist so the UV can penetrate the bacteria and destroy it's DNA. As to "suffiient", meaning do not expect a $50 unit to treat an entire home water supply.
"- another good option is to get a dedicated ozone based iron filter with Katalox light filter media. I have one of these and it works very well. regular "air injection" iron filters do not work, period. "
Air injecting systems do work, the venturi type injectors do not, they fail quickly . True ozone is superior to atmospheric air for oxidizing common substances but with sufficient aeration iron/heavy metals are oxidized very fast . With either ozone or a proper air injecting system, agreed, Kalox light is generally an excellent choice of media if back-washed properly.
www.purewaterproducts.com
Aside from not having a sufficient pre-filter, this is primarily due insufficient back washing, either from not enough backwash flow or insufficient back-flow time/cycles. Ps for homeowners with rented equipment, don't expect the Culligan man to maintain the system correctly.
"- the "rust fighting salts" just use citric acid and not enough to do a really good job cleaning. better to get the bulk powder and add it yourself so you can control the dosage."
Ebay also sells in bulk, citric acid is a safe acid to use
"- most wells with iron also have iron bacteria and it makes matters much worse. I don't have time to go into that now."
Basically with an iron bacteria problem, you need a sediment pre filter, than a sufficient Ultra violet sterilizer; pre-filter so no large particles containing/shielding bacteria exist so the UV can penetrate the bacteria and destroy it's DNA. As to "suffiient", meaning do not expect a $50 unit to treat an entire home water supply.
"- another good option is to get a dedicated ozone based iron filter with Katalox light filter media. I have one of these and it works very well. regular "air injection" iron filters do not work, period. "
Air injecting systems do work, the venturi type injectors do not, they fail quickly . True ozone is superior to atmospheric air for oxidizing common substances but with sufficient aeration iron/heavy metals are oxidized very fast . With either ozone or a proper air injecting system, agreed, Kalox light is generally an excellent choice of media if back-washed properly.
Aer-Max Aeration Systems – Pure Water Products, LLC
Aer-Max Aeration systems for Iron & Hydrogen Sulfide Removal
Last edited:
What a plumber told me.
Houses built today have a water softener loop in the garage, with a plug nearby but that loop is NOT connected to any hose bibs or the cold water to the kitchen sink
.
I'm guessing this is the case for the OP and water spots on his car will never be affected by any system you install.
I bought this to try as it is so cheap and does not need anything added like salt.
I'm not sure how it works but It does nothing for iron.
I have seen less spotting on glasses cleaned in the dishwasher and white crusty stuff in sinks/toilets.
I now use hot water from the kitchen sink to fill my coffee maker and see way less white stuff in it's tank.
Houses built today have a water softener loop in the garage, with a plug nearby but that loop is NOT connected to any hose bibs or the cold water to the kitchen sink
.I'm guessing this is the case for the OP and water spots on his car will never be affected by any system you install.
I bought this to try as it is so cheap and does not need anything added like salt.
I'm not sure how it works but It does nothing for iron
.I have seen less spotting on glasses cleaned in the dishwasher and white crusty stuff in sinks/toilets.
I now use hot water from the kitchen sink to fill my coffee maker and see way less white stuff in it's tank.
sky jumper
Well-known member
- Joined
- Mar 13, 2018
- Messages
- 127
the other thing ozone does, aside from effectively oxidizing the ferrous iron, is kill the iron bacteria. kind of like chlorine you get 2 benefits, but without the bleach and extra contact tank.
I had a standard AIO valve on my Katalox tank and it didn't work at all, even made things worse. I had to backwash the media with bleach every couple months. I replaced the valve with a Clack Ozone valve (kept the existing katalox) and haven't had a trace of iron leakage since (tested between the KL filter and the softener). best $400 i've ever spent, wife is happy.
OP here's more detail on how softeners deal with iron. probly more than you want to know https://wcponline.com/2020/02/15/iron-removal-by-softening-resins/
I had a standard AIO valve on my Katalox tank and it didn't work at all, even made things worse. I had to backwash the media with bleach every couple months. I replaced the valve with a Clack Ozone valve (kept the existing katalox) and haven't had a trace of iron leakage since (tested between the KL filter and the softener). best $400 i've ever spent, wife is happy.
OP here's more detail on how softeners deal with iron. probly more than you want to know https://wcponline.com/2020/02/15/iron-removal-by-softening-resins/
racecougar
Well-known member
I have zero experience here, but interested in learning. What don't you like about Iron Out? Would you dose citric acid or Rescare to the brine tank in the same way as with Iron Out?
sky jumper
Well-known member
- Joined
- Mar 13, 2018
- Messages
- 127
in my experience Iron Out needs a lot of contact time... eg you need to let it soak in the resin for several hours for it to do any good. that means stopping the regeneration cycle after all the brine has been sucked up (unplug the unit, put it in bypass). I've let it soak overnight with some success as judged by the nasty brown discharge water that comes out upon restarting the cycle. I do use it to clean iron stained parts via overnight soaks... especially brine injectors, injector screens, top baskets, and seal packs/spacers. it also has a nasty smell which in theory shouldn't cause your water to stink (because it should get rinsed out) but I swear it does.
yes you can just add the citric acid powder to the brine tank 1/2 cup per 50lb salt bag, layer it in if you want. the rescare you can add manually to the brine well before each regeneration (or every other), or you can buy the dispenser that slows dumps it in 24/7. I'm very hands on and prefer to manually add the cleaners rather than use dispensers. but I also pull the spark plugs out of my cars ever few months just to check on them...
sky jumper
Well-known member
- Joined
- Mar 13, 2018
- Messages
- 127
and there's this stuff https://www.crystalclean.us/
i know it reads like a late night infomercial, but the stuff totally works. I had an iron fouled softener and horrible sulfur smell. I was regenerating with 12lb salt every night. iron out didn't do squat and neither did the "iron fighting" salts. then I used this stuff and after two back-to-back regenerations it totally brought the softener back to life. restored probably 80% of its original capacity and no more sulfur smell.
when I ran out of crystal clean I kept using bulk citric acid and rescare with every regeneration, and that kept it going another 2 years without issue until I finally replaced the resin. at that time I also converted my iron filter to ozone and we've had perfect water ever since. for good measure I continue to use citric acid and rescare even with the Fe filter.
i know it reads like a late night infomercial, but the stuff totally works. I had an iron fouled softener and horrible sulfur smell. I was regenerating with 12lb salt every night. iron out didn't do squat and neither did the "iron fighting" salts. then I used this stuff and after two back-to-back regenerations it totally brought the softener back to life. restored probably 80% of its original capacity and no more sulfur smell.
when I ran out of crystal clean I kept using bulk citric acid and rescare with every regeneration, and that kept it going another 2 years without issue until I finally replaced the resin. at that time I also converted my iron filter to ozone and we've had perfect water ever since. for good measure I continue to use citric acid and rescare even with the Fe filter.
rburke65
Well-known member
Sky Jumper…..How does the average homeowner know when to interrupt the regeneration cycle to allow the IronOut to set over night? Thanks for all your input
I have the same water softener and in MN as well. I wash my vehicles and they are spotless. I use the blue bags of salt from menards.
I have used Iron Out for years....have the Kinetico system, and I put a dose (4 oz. I believe) in between each bag of pelletized salt I put in the
salt tank. Never had to "let it soak" overnight, as it is slowly absorbed into the resin bed upon the salt being absorbed.
salt tank. Never had to "let it soak" overnight, as it is slowly absorbed into the resin bed upon the salt being absorbed.
CJ7VFR
Well-known member
Do you have a water piping loop going to the garage that bypasses the water softener like Kenstone1 said? You said you built your home, so did you have the outside spigots bypass the water softener? That is how my house is plumbed. The outside spigots are not connected to the water softener.
Jim
Jim
racecougar
Well-known member
Thanks for the thorough info. I'm on city water, so I don't believe that I have an iron issue per se, but I'm curious as to whether or not I should run any sort of "rejuvenating" product through the brine well on a regen cycle once in awhile. I don't recall my test results, but the incoming water isn't particularly hard by any means, and the water softener definitely does work, but the only service it has had during my ownership (3+ years) is maintenance of salt level and cleaning of the venturi/screens. The good news is that both times I've disassembled the venturi, all was already quite clean inside. I have it set to regen once per day, and it doesn't consume much salt, but again the incoming water isn't particularly hard.
sky jumper
Well-known member
- Joined
- Mar 13, 2018
- Messages
- 127
inside the salt tank there's a white plastic tube about 3" diameter with removable top. that's your brine well. during brine draw the water in the brine well will drop until its all sucked out and the check ball closes (there will be a little left at the very bottom). at that point you stop the regeneration by cutting off water supply to the softener. easiest way is to just put the bypass valve into bypass. the bypass valve is the valve(s) between the softener and the rest of the plumbing. this traps the iron out solution (or any resin cleaner you add to the salt tank) in the resin tank. you can also cut power to the control valve, this will keep the valve from advancing so that when you're ready to restart it will pickup where it left off. alternately you can allow the valve to run and then when you restart you'll start at the very beginning of the regen cycle --- but of course you'll have to manually add several gallons of water to the brine tank to make the brine, but you'll get that extra backwash to fully flush out the iron out.
in general, extra contact time is beneficial for all resin cleaners not just iron out. but it has been my experience that iron out definitely needs it. your mileage may vary.
sky jumper
Well-known member
- Joined
- Mar 13, 2018
- Messages
- 127
with city water you shouldn't ever have to clean the softener it will last 15+ years with no maintenance other than adding salt.
but why do you regenerate it daily?? while I don't know the capacity of your softener or the hardness of your water I am 100% certain you do not need to regenerate every day, not with city water, unless the softener is broken somehow. most people with city water have to regenerate 1-2 times a month, and that's with budget menards equipment. I think you should definitely determine your water hardness (ask the city or get some cheap test strips) and the capacity of your softener (size of the resin tank). from there you can determine how best to program it. I 100% guarantee you don't need to regenerate every night if the softener is not broken.
for reference, here's what iron did to my equipment after a few years of "normal usage". but again you don't have to worry about this.
racecougar
Well-known member
Again, great info. Honestly, it regens once a day simply because that is what it was set to do when I bought the house, and I've just never questioned it. I have tested the hardness before; I just don't recall the results. I have strips on hand, so I'll test again.
sky jumper
Well-known member
- Joined
- Mar 13, 2018
- Messages
- 127
to determine the capacity of your softener use the following chart. its based on tank size and how much salt is used.
for example, a 10x54 tank typically contains 1.5cuft resin. this tank has a "nominal" capacity of 48k grains, but in reality you will never get that much out of it (for the same reason you'll never run a full 17.1 gallons out of your 17.1 gallon fuel tank, because you'll run out of gas before you get to the station to fill up). just like your car, you need to "refill" your softener before it runs out. so how much will you really get?? that depends on the salt dosage. For a 10x54 tank, if you regenerate with 12lb salt (8lb per cuft resin) you'll get 36k grains capacity. if you use 10lb/cuft (15lbs per regen) you'll get 39k grains. Further, if you use more salt you'll get better water quality. For city water the 8lb/cuft setting is ideal because it balances water quality with salt efficiency. Depending on your softener, you either program the salt usage, or the grains capacity, or the water hardness, or the water usage, or some combination of these parameters so the valve can determine how much brine to make (how much water to pump into the brine tank) and how often to regenerate.
for example, a 10x54 tank typically contains 1.5cuft resin. this tank has a "nominal" capacity of 48k grains, but in reality you will never get that much out of it (for the same reason you'll never run a full 17.1 gallons out of your 17.1 gallon fuel tank, because you'll run out of gas before you get to the station to fill up). just like your car, you need to "refill" your softener before it runs out. so how much will you really get?? that depends on the salt dosage. For a 10x54 tank, if you regenerate with 12lb salt (8lb per cuft resin) you'll get 36k grains capacity. if you use 10lb/cuft (15lbs per regen) you'll get 39k grains. Further, if you use more salt you'll get better water quality. For city water the 8lb/cuft setting is ideal because it balances water quality with salt efficiency. Depending on your softener, you either program the salt usage, or the grains capacity, or the water hardness, or the water usage, or some combination of these parameters so the valve can determine how much brine to make (how much water to pump into the brine tank) and how often to regenerate.
racecougar
Well-known member
Back with some info:
I was incorrect about the regen cycle taking place once per day. It is a Kenmore 300 Series; reading the manual online, I've found that it determines how often to run the regen cycle based upon the water hardness setting (set by the user based on test strips) and an internal water meter. It will only start the cycle at the user-set time, but it will determine on its own how many days to go without regen.
I also tested my water last night. Results were 120ppm or 7gpg per the test strips. This also confirmed my suspicion that the softener had stopped functioning, as both the "softened" and city water taps registered the same reading. Come to find out, I had a salt bridge in the bottom of the unit. After remedying that situation and running a regen cycle, we're back in business (confirmed both by feel and with test strips).
BTW, it looks like the tank is a 7x40 unit.
I was incorrect about the regen cycle taking place once per day. It is a Kenmore 300 Series; reading the manual online, I've found that it determines how often to run the regen cycle based upon the water hardness setting (set by the user based on test strips) and an internal water meter. It will only start the cycle at the user-set time, but it will determine on its own how many days to go without regen.
I also tested my water last night. Results were 120ppm or 7gpg per the test strips. This also confirmed my suspicion that the softener had stopped functioning, as both the "softened" and city water taps registered the same reading. Come to find out, I had a salt bridge in the bottom of the unit. After remedying that situation and running a regen cycle, we're back in business (confirmed both by feel and with test strips).
BTW, it looks like the tank is a 7x40 unit.
sky jumper
Well-known member
- Joined
- Mar 13, 2018
- Messages
- 127
7gpg you are lucky. you really don't even need a softener. I think your unit is 3/4cuft resin, or about 24k grains nominal, 18k useable. so about 2,500 gallons per regen, which I'm guessing lasts you about 2 weeks. you may want to do another regen in a few days to flush out any residual hardness from the extended salt bridge issue.
I have 30gpg, but the iron & iron bacteria is the real ******. water treatment is serious business at our house.
I have 30gpg, but the iron & iron bacteria is the real ******. water treatment is serious business at our house.
racecougar
Well-known member
Thanks for that info. Looking at my water bills, it looks like we'll go about three weeks between regens if the softener computes that a regen is needed every 2500 gallons. Definitely not once per day like I had assumed!