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Water Softener

therealjakeg

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Dec 27, 2008
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202
Location
AZ
I was wondering the differences between the single unit water softener and the larger seperate units that are sold with the salt resivor. As a garage guy I would like to minimize the amount of space that is taken up. Thanks for the help. The house is 2200 SF single story. split three car garage.
 
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er3456df

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Dec 1, 2009
Messages
230
Usually nothing. They just put the resin bed inside the brine tank.

This is true for Kenmore, Whirlpool, and GE. No experience outside these brands.
 

steve308

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Nov 20, 2011
Messages
2,070
Depends on your needs. If your water is just “hard” the newer multi stage one tank system is the way to go. If you have iron (stains) sulfur (rotten egg smell) and or sediment, a two – three tank system will be required as the one tank system will be overwhelmed. Firsthand experience here.
 

Mattlt

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Nov 30, 2005
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Location
MN
Easier to clean the salt tank on the two-tank setup as opposed to the one with the resin tank in the middle of the salt tank.
 

Falcon67

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Jun 11, 2009
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18,371
Location
Merkel, TX
When we lived in Wise County, the well water was hard as a rock (21 grains as I recall) and had quite a bit of sulfer in it. We used a Culligan unit with a separate salt tank. Worked very well for making nice house water. Really better than shooting the well with bleach at 6am then flushing it when we got home.
 

Kevin54

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Jan 12, 2005
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29,341
Location
Urbana, Ohio
We have a lot of iron in our water. One day without the softener will turn everything orange. When we moved here we had the two tank system. One was the softener and the other was the brine (salt) tank. We had it swapped out and I put in a BOSS 90, or BOSS 900. I can't remember the number right off. It is a small compact unit that holds 80lbs. of salt. It hardly takes up any room at all and works great.

Oops....It's a Water Boss 900 http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000UEYXMM/?tag=atomicindus08-20

316d5NKPbcL._SL500_AA300_.jpg
 

superduty59

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Feb 1, 2012
Messages
40
A 2 tank system for iron. I have a Kenetico system. It requires no electricty. Best on the market.
 

Kevin54

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Jan 12, 2005
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Urbana, Ohio
A 2 tank system for iron. I have a Kenetico system. It requires no electricty. Best on the market.

Isn't the Kenitco System the one that runs around $4000? If it is, we looked into it, but at the time, couldn't justify the cost of it. And if that is the one that we were showed, I was really impressed by it and may still go that route someday.
 

thammel

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Oct 3, 2005
Messages
2,236
Location
Maryland
check out qualitywatertreatment.com. I bought the 2 tank system. It's simple and easy to maintain and clean. Here's why you clean out and replenish the salt tank....it gets dirty!! It's never backflushed and with time gets dirty. Also, the salt tends to clump up and this can cause it to get all clogged up. Every couple of years when it is nearly empty, I take it outside, dump it out, hose it down and then refill inside.

Tom
 

shannonw

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Jun 18, 2010
Messages
660
Location
Florida
went with a standard mechanical metered fleck valve and separate tank this time..trust me on this, call someone! it gets complicated as ****, just watch for scammers and overpriced stuff.

but i'll just really blurt out some jibberish i remember..some of it may be incorrect as it's been a year..(so apologies in advance if it's barely coherent)

had kenmore, waterboss. The kenmore types i feel the valves and especially bypass valve are very cheap...typically a thin plastic plunger..i've had that blow apart luckily i was here but it was a mess! I did like the size of the waterboss very much and it does use less water amd salt though i'm not sure of efficiency. i just wanted a better built generic valve unit for a bit more cost. I thought the one i had was undersized and for the larger unit i didn't think a fleck was a bad value. The boss valve is much heavier duty than i see the kenmore types. The fleck and others are REAL heavy duty, my bypass valve is stainless.

ANyways with a separate brine tank you separate the salt from any electronics and stuff, also you can typically locate the brine tank X feet away at a certain slope. You can get these double tanks types that provide continuous soft water but if you get a properly sized single tank it should be recharging when you wouldn't be using water anyways and before the resin capacity is reached thus resulting in hard water.

The science is the same with the 200 dollar dept store units as the 5000 fancy units...ion exchange.

h20 softener capacity depends on the type of resin and the volume of resin and the salt dosage...that's it! more resin more capacity, more salt dose more capacity, high capacity resin = more capacity. Key point this resin has to be 'recharged' with a brine cycle. There is where it gets complicated! Because you also need to know your house flow rate, your hardness, amount of iron,your average water usage for the period of time you're wanting to go between resin recharges (brine flush) in order to property size the unit. However basic water hardness it's pretty simple...aka 7 days capacity determined from h20 water bill weekly average, grains hardness, flow rate (bucket test), figure medium salt dose and you want to recharge 7 or so days. You plug that into the formula and come out with the weekly grain capacity you need between recharges and give yourself some float.

Your X grains hardness, it may even rise and fall throughout the seasons, i don't have high iron but that adds to the size unit you need. In florida my hardness varies wildly summer->fall, i called h20 dept and got the seasonal averages and used the max grains for my calculation/sizing.

You also have to know your water usage, you don't want an undersized unit and be recharging every few days shortening resin, valve life, and wasting water (these things can use 30-60 gallons to recharge though the boss is different) or blowing through salt. You also don't want an undersized unit only removing 1/2 the grains of hardness during a recharge.

You also need to know your flow rate, gpm that you may max typically run, as the softener valve has to deliver that flow rate of softened water.

Very important is salt dose, you can have an undersized softener and use a higher salt dose per regeneration to remove more grains, but of course this uses a lot of salt per year. A lot of the retail units you see are rated at a maximum capacity, ie at the maximum salt dose, great if you want to spend $$, use and lug tons of lbs of salt from the store each year, so you can't go by that rating on the box as it's like air compressors rated at peak HP

Anyways i forget the math (there's lots of online calculators for this) but you end up wanting to recharge every 7 or so days at a moderate salt dosage, that maximizes resin life (supposedly), uses less salt and water. You do your formula and end up with the size unit you need in grains that provides that at the said salt dosage.

Just a random google but you get the idea:

http://www.apswater.com/water_softener_capacity.asp
http://www.watertreatmentguide.com/achieving_brine_efficiency_in_softening.htm

Too low salt dose supposedly isn't good for the resin, and too high your using a ton of salt and need a larger unit. 8lbs seems from reading these guys the recommended sizing.

So let's assume you guy buy a kenmore (doesn't matter all those single tanks at the dept store are the same). It's rated at 32k grain capacity and you need that capacity. So you bring it home plug it in and punch in your hardness, it's going to adjust the salt dosage, only it may be operating at max capacity ..thus costing more in salt and water. Sure it's giving 32k grains hardness but that's with a high salt dose. You'll be spending the difference from the higher capacity unit on salt. If you get TOO high of a capacity unit for your water use you're either:

a) going long periods of times between recharges (supposedly not good for the resin) or
b) recharging too frequently and wasting water and salt (again these can use 30-60 gallon h20 / recharge).

So that's supposedly why you size them.

*Not spamming* just props to an online company i had good experience with ohiopurewater.com, the fglass tanks were made in usa surprisingly, I think the fleck valves are too (can't recall), shipped to door for what I thought was fair deal, helpful over the phone.

Sizing can be a bit complicated reading all i could....after the fact i'd have no problem paying a local dealer selling the same units for much more..only problem is in florida it's FULL of softener scammers and i'd have never trusted them anyways.
 
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shannonw

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Jun 18, 2010
Messages
660
Location
Florida
just a bit more info since this jogged my brain when i was looking...on the kinetico. powered by pressure but a timer doesn't use hardly anything anyways, but it will work during a power outage.You can locate them where you don't have power. If they are better, more reliable, simpler or not is one of those debates i know nothing about...i've read where they're not easily user servicable, but i've read that about some fleck valves too. I've read where they use some type of disc for reprogramming or something or other you have to get from a dealer. My neighbor has one and likes it, was out of my price range =)

Also my kenmore was 20 years old when the bypass valve split apart spewing water everywhere but i knew nothing about it...if it worked or not i have no idea. When i had the kenmore and waterboss i knew nothing about sizing so they could have been undersized as well...i broke the waterboss valve over tightening. I will say you call waterboss customer service and speak to someone in the USA and they ship parts fast but you can only get the parts from them. With the fleck there's plenty of suppliers.
 

38Chevy454

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Dec 26, 2006
Messages
4,036
Location
Cincinnati, OH
They all work on the same basic principle. Just packaging of the components. I have some real hard water here, 32 or more grains in summertime. Fortunate no iron or sulfur problems. Kinetico system was already in my house when purchased. My suggestion is to get larger capacity than you think you need, as if you overwhelm the system, it will not remove the minerals in the water. The Kinetico system just measures the amount of water usage and cycles the recharge based on that; once you hit the limit, it does the recharge. It is a purely mechanical system. You can get different discs based on the local hardness in your area. Each recharge cycle uses some amount of water and salt.
 

Treeman

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Jan 4, 2008
Messages
545
Location
Michigan
That's some good information shannonw. Correctly sizing the unit is very important. When I studied softeners a few years ago, I got the general impression that a unit with separate resin tank and brine tank just tended to be of better quality (vs. Kenmore, as you stated). As pointed out, installing the electronics within the brine tank just doesn't seem right.

A generic unit with one of the 3 major valve suppliers (Fleck, Clack, Autotrol) would be serviceable by any local plumber, have parts available, and generally be of good quality. If you go with a brand with proprietary valve, you are at their mercy for parts and service. Just my general observations and opinion.

Today's metered units are great compared to the timer units, depending on needs.
 
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Joe B.

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Jan 2, 2007
Messages
2,752
I have an old Culligan that came with the house. I love that is has a brine tank that will hold 400 lbs of salt. That really cuts down on trips to the store or refilling the thing. The thing I hate about it is that the instructions and manuals are so cryptic that you need someone from Culligan to adjust the settings. It was made with the intent of it not being user serviceable which annoys me. (Granted, it has been a few years so I should look to see if there is better info online these days.)

I really like the large extra tank. If I was not storing the salt in the tank it would be in a pile of bags on the floor so it really does not take up incremental space.
 
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therealjakeg

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Dec 27, 2008
Messages
202
Location
AZ
Great, Thanks for the information. I belive its just hard water right now.. I am familiar with the area but the house just had its slab poured and we had the option to select a soft water loop and we did. We are looking forward to soft water..

Keep calm and garage on..
 

shannonw

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Jun 18, 2010
Messages
660
Location
Florida
Treeman exactly from my reading as well, one of those brands is what I went shopping for due to the part availability and step up in quality (for about the price as the dept store units).

One thing i'd add (as i was really looking to save space in my garage)...you really can't you can only play with the space.

It requires x cu feet of resin to remove x grains of hardness. You can use a smaller resin tank with high capacity resin (needing less cu feet of resin) ...that's basically the waterboss, it's how it gets the capacity in a smaller space. But that's pretty much it...outside of using higher salt dosages which would be nuts to do.

the rest is just do you want the same space in 1 box, 2 boxes, short box or tall box. With a separate brine tank you can get round,square, short , tall,etc that's entirely configurable even colors.

It's really important to remember salt dosage is what it is all about..when you don't understand the sizing and are shopping dept store brands ..these are your 7hp air compressors at peak =), i removed my links but a quick google

http://www.purewateroccasional.net/hwwatersoftener.html
http://www.pure-earth.com/softcalc.html
http://www.aquatell.com/knowledge-center/understanding-true-water-softener-capacity

Basically in those charts (some vary from site to site) you see how less cu ft of resin can have the same grain capacity if you advertise the unit at the higher salt dosage level. When a step up of only 1/4 cu foot of resin gives you maximum efficiency with a lower dose. that's what you're looking for and how you size your unit, the grain capacity at an efficient salt dosage (8,9lbs from what i've mostly read).

The online sellors i contacted all sized mine correctly according to cu feet of resin needed for my hardness and water usage at an an efficient salt dosage. But these store units you pretty much have to google

...here's a google of a 40k grain dept store softener for like 600 bucks! (ge kenmore, they're all the same inside, in fact inside they look exactly the same as my old 20year old kenmore) let's look at salt efficiency

Hardness Capacity (grains): 40,100
Hardness/Salt Efficiency: [email protected] lbs.
Operating Pressure Range (psi): 20 - 120
Regeneration Time (mins.): 124
Softener Resin (Cu.Ft.): 1.11

40100 grain removal so since they've really hidden the salt dosage this number is based on by using a fraction ..(Hardness/salt efficiency), let's work backwards on this to figure out it's salt dosage for the rating

40100/5090 = 7.87
7.87 x 2.3lbs = 18lbs to generate 40100 grain hardness removal

to me this looks like it's rated at maximum salt dosage. it only has 1.11 lbs of resin (which we know only provides somewhere around 25-27ish grains removal at 8-9lb dosage, but this needs 18lbs of salt to regenerate to provide that 40k grain capacity! If you need 40k grain hardness removal you need to be looking at for example 1.5->2 cu feet of resin (probably 2), you'd use 1/2 the salt and save your back. I'd expect if this was using high capacity resin the salt efficiency would be much better.

that's the funky math the store unit's play with. they don't break it down easily into X grains total hardness / lbs of salt efficiency as those links describe.
 

quick60

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Joined
Nov 5, 2010
Messages
214
Location
Virginia
We were on well water fro 19 years. The Autotrol Readysoft is the best system we ever owned. It has two softener units with one brine tank. The two units would alternate which one was the active unit with your water flowing through it. Once it reached a certain amount of in service time, measured by gallons that were flowed through the system,it would go switch to the standby unit and the used unit would go into regeneration mode. This way you always had soft water. We also had an Iron Filter.

With a single unit when it is in regeneration mode you do not have soft water. It bypasses the unit and water goes straight from the well into your tap, shower, toilet, etc. The old units were on a timer so they regenerated at whatever time you set, usually like 2am. ***** though if you need a shower or flush th etoilet at 215 then you got nasty straight well water.

I still have these units FREE TO A GOOD HOME if anyone wants to come get them The system was about $2000 new. Posted them for sale and no one called. Couldnt bear to chunk 2K worth of stuff in the dump. If you want them PM me.

http://www.pure-earth.com/readysoft.html
 
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thammel

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Oct 3, 2005
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2,236
Location
Maryland
My softener from qualitywatertreatment.com has a Fleck valve that counts the water usage so that it regenerates when required. Pretty simple and has been quite reliable. I installed the acid neutralizer, the softener and whole house filter. Things work well and our water is great.

Tom
 

Sigo

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Joined
Apr 9, 2009
Messages
67
Just to add on to the disscussion, when we purchased ours, we went with a refurbished Kinetico unit through a local authorized dealer. To be honest, I don't know how anyone would be able to tell a difference between our refurb and a new one - it looked completely brand new. Believe me, with stuff like this I have a meticulous attention to detail. There was a great deal of savings with it and I knew too many folks having problems with the softeners purchased at the big box stores. Not trying to sell Kenetico here, but we haven't had the first bit of problem with ours in over six years. I'd recommend you at least ask your local Kinetico guy about a refurb to see what kind of deal you can get. Just my .02.
 

Hmbre97

Member
Joined
Mar 25, 2008
Messages
8
Another +1 for QualityWaterTreatment.com

I bought my system from them after having rainsoft come out and quote me $7k for one of their systems with install.

http://www.qualitywatertreatment.com/water_softeners_fleck_5600SXT.htm

My 48k grain capacity softener with the metered Fleck valve was right at $500 when I bought it.

http://www.aquascience.net/centaur/index.cfm?id=195

Bought my carbon filter from these folks. Same valve and the tank is just a hair shorter. This removes all the iron and other junk from the water.

So $1000 for equipment and paid a plumber $600 to install since we didn't have a loop in the house. They had to trench and splice the main coming into the house.

Best investment I've ever made for my home. Our water here in central Texas is hard as hell due to all the limestone.
 

A1an

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Sep 25, 2010
Messages
1,095
Location
Tampa, FL
Curious if any of you have first hand experience with this saltless water softener product:
http://www.nuvoh2o.com/

We had a plumber out here a few months ago fixing my mistakes from removing an existing non-functioning softener. He was pushing this product pretty hard. What I found appealing was the lack of wiring, the very small space it takes up in the garage, and no dealing with salt. Downside is it gets mixed reviews online.

Really wasn't thinking much about installing another softener until I got suckered into scheduling a Culligan water test at Home Depot. The water test turned into a 1 hour sales pitch (yay). I did not appreciate their scare tactics for sales (showed me a huge book of studies supposedly showing all these diseases, illnesses, etc linked to drinking city water), but I did come away knowing our water is fairly hard and that we may benefit from a softener. Not a fan of the traditional softeners due to the limited space I have in the garage where our loop is installed.
 
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