Water softeners, 400ppm post-softener, ideas?

[skeer]

For the past two years we've had lime scale on everything.. faucets, tub, shower, spigots, etc. I'm not sure how but my brain never made the connection to the softener not doing it's job. I bought it online about 3 years ago.. 48k grains, a single tank Flex 5600 SXT. Maybe 6-8 months later, asking the wife because my memory ***** anymore, limescale came back and has been a pain in her *** since then.

I guess after taking a solid moment to think about it I realized a couple things; Im not as smart as I think I am. And this effing softener should be removing that ****.

So after crawling the internets this week I'm here asking for more advanced, second opinions.

Ok so incoming well water, off the charts TDS, hardness test strip yesterday - at least 400ppm. This is after the softener mind you.. now the area I live in ***** for multiple reasons but for now it's because I bought the last water test kit within an hours drive and it had one (1)!! test strip in it. (Thank you Pro-Labs)

Anyway so the softener people tell me to check the normal things; salt bridge, brine tank water level, bypass, etc, etc. Other than us historically only keeping 1 bag, 40 lbs, of salt in at a time, everything appears to be good. There's been no loss in pressure to indicate a possible spent resin situation, no salt bridge, no bypass.. other than potentially something inside the valving being bad/dirty/plugged physically it's all how it should be.


I sent her the program settings of the Fleck which she said were within norms.

Hardness = 25 (according to my calcs, 400ppm roughly equals 23 gpg)
Back Wash = 17
Brine Draw = 60
Rapid Rinse = 16
Brine Fill = 9

After comparisons against other setups guides I decided to tweak these settings on the theory that perhaps not enough brine was being drawn:
Back Wash = 8
Brine Draw = 60
Rapid Rinse = 8
Brine Fill = 20

Now I have not performed a manual regen just yet after tweaking those settings, but it's planned for this afternoon. I wander, what do you folks think?

 

[RoninB4]

-I have the same equipment because I'm on a well too. The lime scale was so bad it clogged the kitchen sink drain every 6 months. I'd have to check my settings to compare with yours. Those home test strips usually aren't worth the purchase price, a real lab analysis is better to do if one is near you. If the lime scale was ok but then came back I'd have to wonder if something happened. Have you started getting resin through any of the faucets? I did and reasoned that the plastic "cup" in the tank may have broken (how does this happen?) and allowed resin to get sucked up into the system. I ordered one, replaced it (fun if you dump the tank) and haven't had that issue repeat. I wouldn't know what else to check for except depleted resin or resin that's clumped together and not allowing flow through. Do you have any sort of filtration upstream from the softener tank? If you have a lot of sediment in the water it can clog the resin and/or Fleck head. I've got a sediment trap, two screen filters, and a carbon cartridge filter upstream. I pulled all the screens/filters last week and the amount of fines on them was considerable. All that **** going into the Fleck head could surely cause me problems. You may want to consider some additional plumbing/filtration and possibly new resin if it comes out with gunk all over it. Heck of a time of year to fool with the water, it was cold here when I did mine. Oh and another thought, when was the last time you drained/flushed the water heater? You need to or it may be the next target in mineral deposits preventing the heater elements (electric) from working properly. Just a thought.

 

[skeer]

Yeah I'm not a fan of the test strips.. and no, nothing better than that unless I call Culligan and have to sit through their ********.

No resin exiting the tank, anywhere that I could tell or see. And no filtration downstream from the softener, only upstream; 50 micron spindown, 10 and 5 micron sediments.
Everything I've read suggests there will be a noticeable change in water pressure if the resins gone bad or is clogged. Water heater is new, put in this summer so all good there.

 

[pcmeiners]

This company has water scale media filter/filter material

https://www.watchwater.de/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/scaletrapp_broucher.pdf

 

[Mick56]

How often does the system regenerate? Does it actually use the brine? Mine has a little filter on the line that ***** the brine, where the line goes into the head.

 

[kj_mustang]

There are companies that do full water tests that you mail off samples to them.
One bag of salt is a pretty small amount in comparison to my system. Mine takes 2+ bags to get it up to the top of the fill water. Is all the salt covered by water in the bine tank? Is salt close to the top of the water or ever above the level of water?

 

[Yooper920]

When regenerating the unit, check the water coming out of the drain line. At the beginning of the backwash you should see resin fines and/or gunk.

During the brine draw, taste a drop of the water coming out of the drain for salt. There is typically a standpipe in the brine tank where you can see the water level. Check if it slowly fills and draws down. There should be enough salt in the brine tank so you can't see the water level other than in the standpipe.

Finally, it's not stuck in by-pass mode is it? Just asking for a friend.

 

[pima67]

you might want to post in the Terry Love forum. Seems it has some technically astute members

 

[skeer]

There are companies that do full water tests that you mail off samples to them.
One bag of salt is a pretty small amount in comparison to my system. Mine takes 2+ bags to get it up to the top of the fill water. Is all the salt covered by water in the bine tank? Is salt close to the top of the water or ever above the level of water?

You know, I've never once seen or read requirements or recommendations about how much salt to put or keep in a brine tank. I use one bag every two-ish weeks. I mean.. for no real reason you know. We do shopping every weekend give or take so every other trip gives me a chance to drive my truck and I get a bag while Im there.
Unless you heat the water you can only dissolve so much salt into a given amount of water.. but have I been doing it wrong?

 

[skeer]

When regenerating the unit, check the water coming out of the drain line. At the beginning of the backwash you should see resin fines and/or gunk.

During the brine draw, taste a drop of the water coming out of the drain for salt. There is typically a standpipe in the brine tank where you can see the water level. Check if it slowly fills and draws down. There should be enough salt in the brine tank so you can't see the water level other than in the standpipe.

Finally, it's not stuck in by-pass mode is it? Just asking for a friend.

LOL Nah it's not in bypass

So you also mention the water level/salt level in the brine tank. I'm getting a stringer feeling now that I've been filling the brine tank wrong all this time.

 

[skeer]

How often does the system regenerate? Does it actually use the brine? Mine has a little filter on the line that ***** the brine, where the line goes into the head.

Eh you know Im not positive.. at the current 28gr of hardness I believe it's set for every 1200 gallons. And yeah the brine tank gets basically emptied during the Draw. My draw line doesn't have any sort of filter per say.. but I believe there's a screen attached to the plastic pipe/float valve assembly.

 

[4x4Pete]

Testing the water before and after the softener should tell you what's happening. Sounds like it isn't working. Needs to be disassembled and cleaned every year, especially with very hard water.

 

[pcmeiners]

Ebay has super cheap PH/TDS testers (under $10), buy two, test with both instead of strips.

Research Katalox light filters for TDS, iron and heavy metal removal. Using salt adds tons of salt to the ground over a lifetime, no less adds taste to water and unnecessary sodium.

 

[Aileron]

Iron out? https://waterfilterguru.com/how-to-use-iron-out-in-a-water-softener-step-by-step/

 

[Mick56]

You may need to regenerate more often. I have city water that is slightly hard, mine is set to run every 800 gallons.

 

[skeer]

Testing the water before and after the softener should tell you what's happening. Sounds like it isn't working. Needs to be disassembled and cleaned every year, especially with very hard water.

Yup.. hardness strips on order but when you live in nowhere land shipping takes longer than normal.

 

[skeer]

You may need to regenerate more often. I have city water that is slightly hard, mine is set to run every 800 gallons.

The Fleck controller manages regen frequency based on hardness setting. I added about 10% to my setting to be safe.

 

[skeer]

Ebay has super cheap PH/TDS testers (under $10), buy two, test with both instead of strips.

Research Katalox light filters for TDS, iron and heavy metal removal. Using salt adds tons of salt to the ground over a lifetime, no less adds taste to water and unnecessary sodium.

I have one.. Softeners do not handle TDS, that's only sub-micron filters like Nano and RO membranes.

 

[skeer]

Testing the water before and after the softener should tell you what's happening. Sounds like it isn't working. Needs to be disassembled and cleaned every year, especially with very hard water.

And yes.. I have a feeling I should take things apart. I need to ask the water people I bought it from for the info. They have some pretty nice guides for stuff like that.

 

[pcmeiners]

Katlox light does lower TDS. Can wash my car and windows with out a spot.

 

[BurtEggley]

normally the brine tank should be a mixture of salt and salt water. This insures that the salt is reaching maximum concentration in the brine. When you fill the brine tank with salt, all you may see is the salt, however as it dissolves it may drop below the water level where you can see a slurry of salt and water. You should also be able to see the salt solution backflushing and dumping into the septic system when it runs, unless you are on city sewer in which case you probably would not be on well water either. So, as an afterthought, it has been years since we were in a locale with hard water, how does the leech field tolerate all that salt? Do the trees and plants on the edge of the field die from it? I also wonder how many years it takes for the salt to migrate down to well depth, or if it becomes chemically inert before then. There are systems that use other methods than salt.

 

[4x4Pete]

And yes.. I have a feeling I should take things apart. I need to ask the water people I bought it from for the info. They have some pretty nice guides for stuff like that.

Fleck makes a pretty good unit. I know Kinetico manuals are kept from the public. I hope the company is willing to give you the service manual. It may be available online. Part numbers would be good.

 

[skeer]

normally the brine tank should be a mixture of salt and salt water. This insures that the salt is reaching maximum concentration in the brine. When you fill the brine tank with salt, all you may see is the salt, however as it dissolves it may drop below the water level where you can see a slurry of salt and water. You should also be able to see the salt solution backflushing and dumping into the septic system when it runs, unless you are on city sewer in which case you probably would not be on well water either. So, as an afterthought, it has been years since we were in a locale with hard water, how does the leech field tolerate all that salt? Do the trees and plants on the edge of the field die from it? I also wonder how many years it takes for the salt to migrate down to well depth, or if it becomes chemically inert before then. There are systems that use other methods than salt.

Right, but again one thing that's missing from the average person I think is how much water to put into the brine tank during the install to start with. That, and the salt level to maintain, ideally.

For us thankfully, the softener and RO unit dumps it's waste water into the sump pump which gets pumped up and out to the woods between us and the neighbor. Been like that for a good 20 years before we bought the place. And honestly as far as flora goes you can't really tell there's anything negative about that water.

 

[My Old Tools]

I just rebuilt one of my Fleck 2850 valves. Not terribly hard to do. They have a $320 extractor tool and a $320 inserter tool for the o-rings and spacers. I didn't buy either one. My extractor was a simple 3/16 rod with a bent hook on the end. My inserter was a steel rod sized just slightly smaller than the barrel of the valve. I used it as a pilot to slide the stack of spacers and o-rings into place. Softenerparts.com has everything you need.

 

[thammel]

Right, but again one thing that's missing from the average person I think is how much water to put into the brine tank during the install to start with. That, and the salt level to maintain, ideally.

For us thankfully, the softener and RO unit dumps it's waste water into the sump pump which gets pumped up and out to the woods between us and the neighbor. Been like that for a good 20 years before we bought the place. And honestly as far as flora goes you can't really tell there's anything negative about that water.

I don't believe you need to add water to the brine tank during the install. But you do need to run a cycle (regen) to get water into the brine tank. I also like pre and post filters on the system.

 

[gsmith22]

TDS is total dissoleved solids. you don't really care about total dissolved solids - you really only need to care about the calcium and magnesium components of the tds because they are what like to become undissolved from the water and deposit on your pipes/fixtures/etc. everything else (mostly) stays dissolved. softeners specifically remove calcium and magnesium from the water replacing them sodium (from the salt/brine). so forget tds, anything that measures tds and the like. focus on what measures calcium and magnesium or total hardness

in order to determine what is in your water, you first need an accurate water test. test strips are nearly useless so don't buy them. best are tests where you can send a water sample to a lab - NTL labs at https://watercheck.com/ are probably the best online lab where you can mail a sample. this will give you a snapshot in time which might be fine for a well system but probably not so great for municipal water where source can change. second best test would be titration of a water sample with a home kit. Taylor makes titration kits for all kinds of things but specifically for total hardness, look to taylor kit k-1503, K-1504, K-1505, K-1514, or K-1594. could also get a kit that measures multiple things but seems like hardness is your main issue.

If it was me, i would do a comprehensive test with NTL to narrow down the issues, and then get titration test kits from Taylor to peridically meaure what is important for your situation and treatment methods.

 

[1968442]

You need to get a lab test as others have mentioned, Depending on those results you may find you need a neutralizer to pull the hard minerals out before the softener

 

[gsmith22]

You need to get a lab test as others have mentioned, Depending on those results you may find you need a neutralizer to pull the hard minerals out before the softener

lab test yes.

but a neutralizer is typically a bed of limestone used to raise low pH water. it is literally adding hardness back into the water as the calcium is dissolved. its a cheap way to raise pH but is often at odds with other desires such as lowering hardness because it adds hardness back. lowering pH is often better accomplished using soda ash injection becasue it doesn't add hardness.

OP, get the lab test and see what issues you have in total before deciding on an optiumum way to address them all. different processes are often at odds with one another as noted above

 

[kj_mustang]

Right, but again one thing that's missing from the average person I think is how much water to put into the brine tank during the install to start with. That, and the salt level to maintain, ideally.

Here is a decent manual from a water softener supplier that covers your question. See page 22.
https://mavenoidfiles.com/8jgqpn34eivjhpb48o7c606rfc0kdl4ggut9