Water supply copper vs PEX vs PVC

[b-body-bob]

I'm working on a property that has had large hunks of the copper water pipe cut out of it. (Yes, I re-grounded the electrical) The structure has a full basement, so I will be standing up, not laying on my back in a crawl space to repair it. If it helps, the basement includes a 1-1/2 car wide garage area, and there is plenty of room to add a real nice sized workshop down there.

At first I thought that PEX might be the best answer to just replace the missing copper, with sweated connectors added to what copper is left standing. But, the closer I get to actually doing it I think it might turn out to be just about as easy to go ahead and run PVC instead, eliminating all the copper, all the sweated connections, and the expense of all those Pex tools and connections. I haven't seriously considered going back with copper, due to the cost and aggravation factor.

I've worked with copper before, know my solder skills are weak, and am also leery of fire so close to wood, sheetrock, and insulation. I've never used PEX before, but it looks it could be a hassle to sweat in the copper connections and then crimp every fitting and in the end it looks like I've run hose all over the house. I've used plastic before and obviously it wouldn't be much of a hassle to to just rip out the copper and start over, but at the same time I'd rather keep the copper at least at the end where faucets, etc, connect up. With my PEX approach, I'd have the remaining copper from the floor up to the stops.

So, I guess I'm just looking for common wisdom from the been there done that group - if it was you, would you patch in the missing the copper, fix it with PEX, or go with all new PVC?

Sorry for the long explanation, and thanks in advance for any opinions,

 

[Mechtech]

The advantage to PEX is that you only need the connectors at the ends of the line. It can be run around corners and pulled through walls like wiring. Whether the time saving outweighs the cost of the crimping tool needed is up to you. I think you would come out about even between pex and pvc (new tool and a few expensive fitting verses time and lots of fitting for pvc) Without knowing the specifics it's hard to say which is best. I ran pex when I redid my garage and while there where a couple of frustrations the process went pretty smooth.

 

[Leaflessshadetree]

I actually like copper and like working with copper but the cost factor has to be considered.
I have developed a hatred for PVC. I've had to deal with too many brittle pipes and fittings (maybe because they were cheap or aged).
I'd go with PEX. Get good tools for 1/2 and 3/4 (because you will probably use them again). If it's larger you can use fittings that cost more but don't require special tools.

 

[Schurkey]

What hazardous chemicals does PEX and PVC leach into the water vs. copper + solder?

 

[5spdfrk]

I recently used pex with Sharkbite fittings. Not the most cost efficient, but I only had a handful of connections to make, so the fittings outweighed the cost of a nice crimping tool.

 

[Casey69]

What hazardous chemicals does PEX and PVC leach into the water vs. copper + solder?

that'd be my concern as well, but most new homes are using pex in my area of the world. copper is just so expensive now & has become cost-prohibitive for major remodels & new construction, not to mention the addl labor to install copper.

pex & cpvc have been around for a while though.

 

[b-body-bob]

The advantage to PEX is that you only need the connectors at the ends of the line. It can be run around corners and pulled through walls like wiring. Whether the time saving outweighs the cost of the crimping tool needed is up to you.

Good points. In the house, if the pipe went up a wall, they kicked the wet wall in, so there's no problem with snaking pipes. I also liked the idea of just bending PEX around corners to avoid tedious cut and glue needed for PVC, but I noticed HD sells corner supports to run the PEX in, and if that is really needed it's about $3 per bend. The tubing itself is dirt cheap though.

I actually like copper and like working with copper but the cost factor has to be considered.

I agree if it wasn't for the cost, I'd hire a pro and do copper without hesitation.

What hazardous chemicals does PEX and PVC leach into the water vs. copper + solder?

I've been told the water main here is made of Asbestoscrete™ so how much worse could it be?

I recently used pex with Sharkbite fittings. Not the most cost efficient, but I only had a handful of connections to make, so the fittings outweighed the cost of a nice crimping tool.

I thought you needed the crimping tools with the Sharkbite fittings that I saw at H-D. I probably need to read more.

 

[Todd.Brock]

What sort of fitting so you use to go from Cu to Pex? My neighbor is finishing his bsmt with a wet bar. He access to the crimpers. I was thinking pex would be an easy way
To snake through soffits, etc. I don't want to use shark bites as the connections will be enclosed with drywall

 

[b-body-bob]

HD had solder connectors on the shelf to go from Cu to PEX.

 

[G_P]

You can rent the pex crimper for aboug $8 a day from Home depot.

Or if you use the "qickclamp" rings there is only one tool that does every size so its much cheaper than having to buy a different crimp head for each size you use.

 

[Highbeam]

Sharkbite brand makes pex pipe, crimp connectors, AND the push on fittings. The term sharkbite has become a generic name for their push on connectors that allow the connection of copper to pvc or pex without soldering.

The sharkbite brand crimp tool is less than 70$ to own and it does 1/2" and 3/4" which is all you need anyway.

You can abandon the "in the wall" copper and come up from below into the cabinets with the pex or you can tear everything out and do a full replumb.

 

[shooting4life]

Personally, I would add the copper pipe back. I think it looks nicer and I like that things match, etc. Plus it will last forever, well, as long as you don't cut it out.

The way to get better at soldering is to solder.

Plus, think of it as a reason to get an acetylene tank and turbo torch. Next thing you know you will be adding air lines in copper, maybe hot water at your driveway so you can wash your car with warm water in the winter.

 

[b-body-bob]

Personally, I would add the copper pipe back. I think it looks nicer and I like that things match, etc. Plus it will last forever, well, as long as you don't cut it out.

The way to get better at soldering is to solder.

Plus, think of it as a reason to get an acetylene tank and turbo torch. Next thing you know you will be adding air lines in copper, maybe hot water at your driveway so you can wash your car with warm water in the winter.

I'm with you on this in theory, but a guy needs to remember that when soldering to get better at soldering, to do it with pipe scraps because a 3/4" pipe that's going to get hit with pressure isn't the place to be learning. DAMHIK. Once that pipe is wet, it's heck to fix it if there's a bad joint, so I'd be way ahead sanity wise to hire someone else to do it if copper is the decision.

 

[SALIV8]

heres my thoughts. are you worried about it freezing? if so use pex.

you can buy solderless crimp on copper connections and rent the german press tool for those. called pro-press. ive used these with great success.

i have both copper and pex in my homes. i like them both and theres pros and cons for both.

one downside for pex is that it will break down under uv light. so either wrap it or hide it from the sun and some flourescent lights.

edit- im not a fan of pvc for supply lines or cpvc. i wouldnt use either for supply.

 

[jwvess00]

Hello,

I've thought long about getting the Uponor tool -- their PEX system doesn't crimp rings, it swells the end of the tubing, and when the tubing contracts around the fitting it's sealed. I don't have an excuse yet, though

 

[RAYJAY]

pex all the way and price your stuff here lot better than HD or lowes


used to be pex supply ....http://www.supplyhouse.com/

 

[BRay549]

PVC is only for cold water, and even so, I don’t know of any jurisdictions that allow PVC indoors.
CPVC is for hot or cold water, but I would never consider using it for anything other than a discharge pipe for a T&P valve on a water heater. It becomes very brittle with age, and your chances of damage is greatly increased over time.
So that leaves Copper or PEX. I would consider copper, depending on how much you need to replace. If you are worried about fire, you can protect the wood from the flames in various ways.
If the amount of damage is extensive, I would go with PEX. Now with PEX, you have a couple of options in and of itself. Expansion style (A-grade) or crimp style (B-grade). Crimp style is less expensive, but also, not as good as the expansion style. If you do go with the crimp style, select the type with the stainless steel (RTI style) crimp rings. It is the best of the crimp style. The expansion style is only available at wholesalers, but most will sell over the counter to home owners. They also rent tools if you need. If you compare the crimp to expansion systems, you can easily tell the difference in quality. The expansion type is made by Uponor and known as Wirsbo.

 

[slip knot]

Pex is the way to go. I have my plumber put pex in all my rental rehabs. They use the Rehau system and it works well but the tool is $$$ @$600 IIRC. I bought a Sharkbite ring crimp set for repairs around the farm and found them a bit unweildy due to the size of the crimpers and how far they have to opened to use them. I have to dig a big hole to get the crimper opened enough to go around the fitting. The Rehau uses a tool not much bigger than a pair of pliers.

 

[macdabs]

I have used all above and pex is your most economical and durable solution. Go to a large local supply house that the plumbers use and you can purchase the pex clamp rings in bags of 50 for what you will pay for a bag of 25 at lowes . Your fittings to go from copper to pex are also a lot cheaper at a large supply house also. Purchase the clamps with a single nail in bulk also and you can buy T s and Ls for tight bends for less than the metal bends. I was a non believer in pex till I plumbed my new shop and added hose bibs , full bath and heated floor. The time you save and money is well worth it. Plus the cost off copper and fittings is just not worth it when in the end your just pushing water . Plus pex holds up better for freezing.

 

[jdieter]

I'm doing a walkout basement remodel all the plumbing was copper, the drains are all cast iron and steel, and none of the traps were vented. I'll be replacing most of the copper with pex so I can pull the tubing through the joists and install a flush ceiling. this would be impossible with copper. The cast iron and steel drains will get replaced with sch.40pvc and proper venting. I'm using the crimp ring connectors because I all ready had the crimper. I'll still use copper to the fixtures, water heater, well pump etc. anywhere the plumbing is exposed because I feel a little safer regarding any opportunities for physical damage and it just looks better than plastic wandering all over.

 

[b-body-bob]

PVC is only for cold water, and even so, I don’t know of any jurisdictions that allow PVC indoors.
CPVC is for hot or cold water, but I would never consider using it for anything other than a discharge pipe for a T&P valve on a water heater. It becomes very brittle with age, and your chances of damage is greatly increased over time.

Good info. I thought it was the other way around and that PVC is for hot or cold, because CPVC is flexy.

I looked at it again last night, there's a lot of missing pipe - probably 30' each hot and cold both, with 2 baths and one laundry room that needs plumbed. I'm going to try to get my BIL who once held a plumber's license to come over and look. I've avoided asking him about it because he's one of those guys who won't take money, and I'm one of those guys who won't ask someone to work for free. He came over and ran the excavator when we installed about 100' of sch 40 sewer line, then acted mad when I paid him $300 even though it still saved me thousands over paying a company to do it.

 

[b-body-bob]

pex all the way and price your stuff here lot better than HD or lowes


used to be pex supply ....http://www.supplyhouse.com/

Excellent link, the video showing all the different systems is exactly what I needed.

 

[Techie1961]

I use materials in really harsh environments like dry cleaning plants with boiler rooms and really hot temps. I like copper in some instances but even a pro can end up with a solder joint that doesn't tin the whole fitting perfectly. With so many joints needed inside walls, why take the risk with a failure.

I use PEX a lot. You only typically have one connection at the start and end so there is virtually no chance of a leak en route. I don't really work with 1/2" at all as most of my stuff is 3/4" and 1". The tools are a bit pricey but you can usually work a deal with a pro supplier. The stuff at HD is pretty affordable. Using a push in fitting is a really nice choice for areas where soldering is going to be tough or risky due to fire.

Stay away from PVC at all costs. It tends to sag and like others have said, it is really only good for cold water. It is large and bulky as well.

I don't think that leaching is going to be a problem with PEX and when you think about it, there are bad things related to copper piping such as lead (not much in today's solder) processing oils, flux, etc. PEX is a lot cheaper as well and likely won't crack due to freezing.

 

[Todd.Brock]

I like copper, but I'm really slow. Cpvc kind of *****. I like the cutters though! That makes it go quick, but priming and gluing is a pain. Easier to solder in my opinion! PEX looks easy. I
M good with easy, as long as it's done right

 

[icenfire01]

I really like PEX, and really hate copper. Im in the process of removing all the copper in my house and replacing it with PEX because its soooooo much easier to use. If you go with PEX do your self a favor and buy an good crimping tool, it will be an investment and I almost guarantee you that you will do another PEX project again if you have it. I loaned my first one out to somebody and now many moons later Im kicking my self for forgetting who has it!!! Also if you think about getting rid of the existing copper to replace with PEX keep in mind you can sell your old copper to recoup some of your investment.

 

[b-body-bob]

Also if you think about getting rid of the existing copper to replace with PEX keep in mind you can sell your old copper to recoup some of your investment.

Yeah no way to forget that since that's why I'm replacing what was a perfectly good water system because of someone deciding to recycle the easy-to-get copper and brass.

FWIW, prior owner was a developer planning to demo and build condos right on my property line. His **** monkeys got in there and started stealing copper before I could get to him and take a shot at stopping deterioration of my existing property value thanks to a concrete nightmare being built next to us. He got the house before anyone in the neighborhood knew it was for sale, probably the way that kind of deal goes down 99% of the time.

 

[darwyn]

I recently learned a lesson about soldering copper pipe. I have always struggled to get the solder to flow evenly. Anyways, the last time I did some soldering I had to borrow a torch from a contractor friend.
Instead of the torch end that comes on the standard propane bottle you get, he had upgraded his to one of those trigger start torches, something like this: trigger start. Amazing difference!! His was so much hotter than mine, it took seconds to get the pipe hot enough and the solder flowed so nicely. He told me he had the exact same experience, that's why he had upgraded after 20 years of fighting his cheap torch.

Turns out it may not be you, could be the tool!

 

[b-body-bob]

I've got one of those trigger deals on a MAPP gas tank here but I haven't tried soldering with it yet.

My previously mentioned BIL has a nozzle, hose and tank setup that he uses. Seems like he has two tanks setup on it, and a leather strapped sling of a thing to carry them with.

 

[shooting4life]

I've got one of those trigger deals on a MAPP gas tank here but I haven't tried soldering with it yet.

My previously mentioned BIL has a nozzle, hose and tank setup that he uses. Seems like he has two tanks setup on it, and a leather strapped sling of a thing to carry them with.

He is probably using acetylene which burns much hotter than propane or mapp gas, it makes soldering much much faster and easier.

 

[b-body-bob]

After looking at lowes.com, homedepot.com and supplyhouse.com I wondered how compatible the different hoses/barbs/crimps/tools are between manufacturers. Does everything have to match, or can I use Brand A hose, Brand B barbs, Brand C crimps, and Brand D tool? I figure the barb/crimp/tool should match up, but what about the hose, and other fittings like stops, spigots, etc?

 

[kbs2244]

I would go with the PEX.
Mostly for the ease of install.
Get a good crimper. It will be worth it.

One thing I found out about copper is that it can fail if you go to RO water treatment.
When the city at my FLA place went to whole town RO homes started getting leaks.
Some of the impurities in the copper were reacting with the water and corroding.
The local fix is a whole house re-plumb with PEX.

 

[Stevie-Ray]

I'd go PEX as well. All my undersink plumbing and the plumbing to and from my softener is PEX, along with anything that goes wrong that requires a plumber being transitioned from PVC to PEX. It's simply the best-everybody seems to think so, though some companies are rather slow to embrace it. Home Depot sent a team to my house to hook up my new dishwasher and noticed the PEX. Sorry, we can't hook up today, due to PEX. We need to put a stainless feed on and it doesn't hook up to your PEX system. Fix it and we'll come back.

I bought a Sharkbite valve for the PEX that had a threaded end for the stainless. Called them back and said ready. They came back, looked at the repair, and said very cool. I asked them why they don't think of things like this, as PEX is better than everything else-they responded that the company hasn't yet jumped into the 21st century.

 

[b-body-bob]

All my undersink plumbing and the plumbing to and from my softener is PEX

The one thing I'm missing is an idea of how to finish up with PEX under the sink. I still have it in my mind that I need to stub out with copper, and they even make a barbed tube for that purpose. If you can post a photo of your undersink area showing what the PEX looks like coming up to the stops, it'd be a big help.

I asked them why they don't think of things like this, as PEX is better than everything else-they responded that the company hasn't yet jumped into the 21st century.

Interesting that the installers blame it on H-D when I know I've seen sharkbite stops on the shelf there.

 

[crucible]

I've learned to sweat copper due to necessity over the last five years or so as leaking pinholes caused me to have to replace most horizonal runs in my house But I don't particularly like it however, and would like to use PEX the next time I need to do similar work.

Can anyone recommend a good PEX crimper for me? (Johnny homeowner, not everyday plumber) I don't want, need nor can afford a Ferrari of crimpers, but a good solid Chevrolet will likely do methinks.

Thanks.

 

[C96]

Hi Bob,
Although I have never used Pex, I have used the others, PVC and copper. I would skip the PVC idea do to the pitfalls the others have mentioned. I think copper is always a good choice, but again like others have mentioned, you must get the pipe hot enough to sweat it properly. Most of the cheapo propane torches just can’t do it. The map gas will work, but the proper set-up is what your BIL uses. Once you use the proper torch, the solder flows like butter and you will see how easy it actually is to do.

After reading your thread thus far, I too think Pex will be my choice for water lines in the future.

So, I take it you were able to purchase the property next door?
Are you now the sole owner of it, or was it a group buy with the neighbors?

 

[Techie1961]

One thing I found out about copper is that it can fail if you go to RO water treatment.
When the city at my FLA place went to whole town RO homes started getting leaks.
Some of the impurities in the copper were reacting with the water and corroding.
The local fix is a whole house re-plumb with PEX.

Yeah, this reminded me of a customer in Newfoundland. They have one of our dry cleaning machines and the copper coils in it were failing. Ended up that the lake that the water comes from was super pure. The water would pull the copper from the tubing and thin it out. They had forgotten to mention that they had to switch the entire factory from copper to stainless steel because of this issue.

 

[b-body-bob]

After reading your thread thus far, I too think Pex will be my choice for water lines in the future.

After spending lunch on the supplyhouse.com website watching videos, I'm at least walking beside the PEX bandwagon, if not up on it. A lot of my uncertainty was due to a lack of info, and that website and this thread has helped a lot with that.

Also, after looking at it pretty closely last night, there's hardly enough copper left to give me a headstart, so I might as well rip it all out and start over.

So, I take it you were able to purchase the property next door?
Are you now the sole owner of it, or was it a group buy with the neighbors?

We don't own it yet but the bank hasn't said no and the drop-dead date on the sales contract is next Friday. So I'm not buying supplies yet, but I'm pretty confident about it.

There was some delay because we had to finance it as a commercial loan because of the repairs needed. Once I get it all straightened up we'll look into getting a conventional mortgage on it - and possibly moving over into it and renting this place.

We'll be the sole owners of it, and that's the way I wanted it. The only partners I need are my wife and daughter

 

[Stevie-Ray]

Interesting that the installers blame it on H-D when I know I've seen sharkbite stops on the shelf there.

I believe it, as HD would want to make the money off selling it to you, rather than you going to the local Do-It center. However, ask them if their installers use them and you'll get an entirely different story. Quite obvious to me that they tell their installers to do it as cheaply as possible. So Sharkbite, which is rather expensive in comparison, need not apply.

They made a very big deal of their hoses being "stainless," which hinted at that being a recent change as well, and one they thought of as "top shelf" and worthy of tooting their own horn.

 

[b-body-bob]

if stainless braid hoses are a new change for them, maybe in another 10 they'll get to where they see PEX as the default.

 

[kbs2244]

"Yeah, this reminded me of a customer in Newfoundland. They have one of our dry cleaning machines and the copper coils in it were failing. Ended up that the lake that the water comes from was super pure. The water would pull the copper from the tubing and thin it out. They had forgotten to mention that they had to switch the entire factory from copper to stainless steel because of this issue. "

It is hard to belive in this day and age that water can be "too pure"
Are there any empty lots in the neighborhood?