Water supply copper vs PEX vs PVC

[justin1795]

I ran my basement in uponder/pro pex. the brass fittings are expensive but I would recommend it. I only used a couple of the bend brackets. you can order the stuff online and save a lot over the store. I was lucky enough to have a plumber friend loan me his tools. he said the pro pex is way better than menards pex. this type you insert a tool and expand it then it shrinks back. I ran all my pipe runs then started doing connections. about 30 seconds per conection.

 

[b-body-bob]

It looks like PEX is my answer. I went around measuring and drawing yesterday, so I can at least get close on the number of fittings I need. Hopefully I'll be able to make the bends i need to make and avoid having to put in a lot of ells.

Anyway, I'm not sure right now if I want to mail order my supplies to avoid coming up short or having too much. I also worry about the weekend getting here before the supplies do and delaying things further.

 

[b-body-bob]

I wanted to add one last thing - it takes at least two people to handle a roll of Pex, and even then good luck getting the stuff to uncoil. Especially 3/4"

It was all going pretty well until we had to run it between joists, over wiring, drains, and lights. The stuff just will not give up its shape and run straight.

 

[4x4_G30_Sportvan]

Most certainly PEX,
Stainless steel cinch clamps.
Cinch clamp tool from ebay i slike $25.

ONLY way to go.

 

[NewShockerGuy]

pex all the way and price your stuff here lot better than HD or lowes


used to be pex supply ....http://www.supplyhouse.com/

Thank you for this link!

I want to run a hot and cold line into my garage probably from my laundry room's washer connect/pipe. I've never done this before and everyone kept recommending PEX... even though I thought it was not good. What I didn't realize is the connections and how things have changed over the years. I was hell bent on doing copper but I feel that would be insanely expensive. Now I feel like I can probably tackle this project with help and asking some questions...

But PEX does seem to be the way to go in bringing up into the attic space above the garage and then down behind the wall. I'm gonna have to make some dry wall cuts obviously but this is a much better outcome than I had first imagined.

Great site with videos and differences of PEX products. I think my biggest hurdle is figuring out how to tap off the laundry hot/cold lines and create a T connection then going into the garage and up.

But won't be doing anything until it's warm.

-Nigel

 

[Firebrick43]

'ITS ALIVEEE", in my best Dr Frankenstein impression.

 

[nadogail]

My family has three rentals, all built in the last 22 years and they are 100% PEX, except for the exposed copper stubs coming out of the wall. We have had no problems with any of the PEX. I use Shark Byte flex hoses for all my water heater change outs. Because Shark Byte fittings a product of Cashco I trust them.

 

[mcbane]

In the event that you use pex but leave portions of copper pipe in place, you may be required to bond the copper to the building ground. If I recall correctly NEC leaves latitude for AHJ to decide you must bond in even short lengths of copper.

 

[CraigStu]

I would go w/ pex all the way. Obviously it will cost a little more, but I would go all the way to and include the shutoff valves under the sink. I'd rather buy a new shutoff valve that will accept pex than screw around w/ a pex/copper transition. Also, my experience w/ old shutoff valves is that they are just fine until you actually try to close one that hasn't been touched in the last 20 years.

 

[APEowner]

I have a variety of Sharkbite caps in my plumbing kit to temporarily block of stubs but I haven't used them as a permanent repair anywhere. I find them kind of pricey and I just can't get myself comfortable with them. I think that says more about me than the product.

I really like the looks of a well designed and built copper plumbing system and I take pride in my ability to put one together but the next time I have to do any significant rework or fresh plumbing I'll most likely commit to a Pex crimp system and go that route. I hate the way Pex looks but again that says more about me than the product. From everything I've seen the benefits far outweigh the few downsides.

 

[theoldwizard1]

Segue - Any non-professional using PEX-A ?? I can see the labor cost savings for Pros.

 

[johninct]

Personally, I would add the copper pipe back. I think it looks nicer and I like that things match, etc. Plus it will last forever, well, as long as you don't cut it out.

The way to get better at soldering is to solder.

Plus, think of it as a reason to get an acetylene tank and turbo torch. Next thing you know you will be adding air lines in copper, maybe hot water at your driveway so you can wash your car with warm water in the winter.

Copper does not last forever at my house.

 

[rlitman]

Segue - Any non-professional using PEX-A ?? I can see the labor cost savings for Pros.

A friend of mine did his home heating systems in PEX-A. He went and bought the expander tool.
I used it for an ice melting system in my front steps, because it bends more easily to fit a loop in a stair tread, but I used normal clamps.

There isn't much savings, because the expansion fittings are way overpriced, and it isn't saving any install time either. Also, I've found that PEX-A has a chemical smell inside it that B doesn't have, so I chose B for my potable water lines.

 

[justler]

Segue - Any non-professional using PEX-A ?? I can see the labor cost savings for Pros.

Yep, ran some 3/4 and 1/2" the other day. Bought the M12 Milwaukee tool with the rapid seal expanders (This is a good bit pricier than the m12 with regular expanders) off a guy on ebay the other week for about $400 (Non-rapid seal you can get for $300 retail).

Much faster and safer than soldering copper, gluing CPVC or crimping pex-b.

On Pex-B/Crimp, the copper crimp rings **** and so does the tool to crimp them. Lots of room for error, should use a go/no-go gauge on them, even then the ring needs to be properly positioned after the crimp is complete. The tool is a pain to use because it's large and you have to put the ring in place and hope you don't move it up or down on the pipe when you go to crimp it (You have to use a lot of force and two hands unless you buy an electronic crimper).


I've used copper crimp rings on pex-b, uponor/pex-a, soldered copper, glue PVC and CPVC and much prefer pex-a with the expansion tool. I can't tell you how many small cans of FlowGuard and other cpvc glue i've bought because I don't glue pipe every couple of months... Probably $50 worth over the last two years. It also stinks and is messy. CPVC is also really brittle, every time I remove a section I get a couple cuts where the pipe shatters/breaks on one side of the pipe.


Expanding/Pex-A can be an investment because the electric tool is pricey, but you can buy a cheaper non-electric tool to do it too like crimp pex. It's not as easy/convenient to use but it does exist (I imagine it's like using the large pex crimper, lol).


Another downside of Pex-A is it's not readily available at Home Depot or Lowe's here. If you need a fitting at 8pm, you gotta wait til morning to the supply shop opens or your order from supplyhouse.com comes.

 

[dcg9381]

Segue - Any non-professional using PEX-A ?? I can see the labor cost savings for Pros.

I think you're talking about uponor. The tools are expensive, but it's pretty good to work with in most cases. If I recall, it's main advantage is that there is less flow restriction at the connection, but I've only used it a few times... Neighbor did a house with it, swears by it, sold his tools after for about what he paid for them.

Course, I never sell a tool...

 

[theoldwizard1]

If I recall, it's main advantage is that there is less flow restriction at the connection, ...

I think the ID of the pipe itself is larger.

 

[roc_on_the_rocks]

What hazardous chemicals does PEX and PVC leach into the water vs. copper + solder?

Uranium and plutonium.

 

[Firebrick43]

I think the ID of the pipe itself is larger.

The tubing has the same ID as pex B and C. The advantage of upnor propex or other f1960 pex is it allows the ID of the fittings to be close to the size of the ID of the tubing. Obviously for the expansion pex to grip the od of the fittings have to be significantly larger than the ID of the pipe or the pipe wouldn't grip in a water tight manner.

Crimp fittings obviously have fittings that OD is the same size of the ID of the tubing therefore the ID of the fitting is much smaller(next tubing size down) and causes significant restriction. If you do homerun systems its not that big of deal but if you trunk link type layout you can have some flow issues on bigger systems or you have to step up to the next size bigger.

PEX A also allows you to work out kinks with a heat gun. Pex B and C the kink must be cut out and the tube spliced.


rlitman, were you using oxygen barrier PEX for your radiant Ice Melt system? It has a smell inside but is also non potable (if I remember correctly). The potable Pex A has very little smell to it that I have used. But any plastic is a concern to me. My potable lines are all copper. Just my radiant lines and lines going to hose bibs and such are Pex.

 

[RoninB4]

I wanted to add one last thing - it takes at least two people to handle a roll of Pex, and even then good luck getting the stuff to uncoil. Especially 3/4"

It was all going pretty well until we had to run it between joists, over wiring, drains, and lights. The stuff just will not give up its shape and run straight.

-Late to the party and not much to add beyond what others have already posted. I will say that I also had a time uncoiling and keeping a section straight. When finished I simply ran a 7' length of the coil down some heavy walled PVC pipe I had and left it for a couple of months. When I recently moved it (and the rest of the coil) I pulled the section from the PVC pipe and found it remained fairly straight. Most of us don't have time for it to "relax" but if there's a coil remainder may slipping it in some unused pipe around the perimeter of the basement/garage will provide a straighter section for the next job or plan well in advance before the job demands. Don't know but maybe even allowing the PVC "sheathe" to lay in the sun will make the PEX more pliable and less of a wrestling match. Hope this helped someone.

 

[strantor]

Every time pex comes up I see people complaining about the cost of the tools. I have no idea what they're talking about. This thread gets more specific. Some Milwaukee tool and an "expander?" Now I really have no idea what you guys are talking about. I got this $65 crimp tool (cost less than the mapp gas torch i use for sweating copper) and that's all I've ever needed. Over the years as the PVC sections of my plumbing fail I replace with PEX. Get the fitting, thread or sweat it on, slide the crimp ring on the pex, slide the pex on the fitting, crimp, done. What's the big deal? At what point was I supposed to use a cost-prohibitive tool? I don't even know where to go if I had a notion to rent a $65 crimp tool for $8/day.

 

[rlitman]

The tubing has the same ID as pex B and C. The advantage of upnor propex or other f1960 pex is it allows the ID of the fittings to be close to the size of the ID of the tubing. Obviously for the expansion pex to grip the od of the fittings have to be significantly larger than the ID of the pipe or the pipe wouldn't grip in a water tight manner.

Crimp fittings obviously have fittings that OD is the same size of the ID of the tubing therefore the ID of the fitting is much smaller(next tubing size down) and causes significant restriction. If you do homerun systems its not that big of deal but if you trunk link type layout you can have some flow issues on bigger systems or you have to step up to the next size bigger.

PEX A also allows you to work out kinks with a heat gun. Pex B and C the kink must be cut out and the tube spliced.


rlitman, were you using oxygen barrier PEX for your radiant Ice Melt system? It has a smell inside but is also non potable (if I remember correctly). The potable Pex A has very little smell to it that I have used. But any plastic is a concern to me. My potable lines are all copper. Just my radiant lines and lines going to hose bibs and such are Pex.

Exactly. One note: for the standard (non-expansion) fittings, while the OD matches the ID of the tubing, the fitting ID depends on the fitting material. Plastic fittings have thicker walls, and therefore smaller IDs, so if you care about flow, use brass fittings.

The beauty of PEX however is its ability to minimize fittings entirely, and if the fitting size really causes you flow issues, you're probably using to small of a pipe anyway.

Yes, it was oxygen barrier PEX-A. But my understanding is that the odor is caused by the cross-linking and not the barrier, and that it may go away over time with water use. I have some 3/4" oxygen barrier PEX-B I've used for other heating applications that seems odorless to me, though I haven't used either for drinking water.