I recently installed a new outlet so I could power my lm 3800. Well, earlier I tried to close the door and nothing happened, there was no power. I found out that there is a light switch that was turned off and that was what was causing the issue. I traced the wires back and this is where it doesn't make sense. In the attic there is a light attached to a junction box with four romex lines going into it. I opened the junction and found that one of the lines went to the switch for the attic light, another is what I assume is the feed, but it was wired weird. One of the hot legs tied into two neutrals. Is there a reason for this?
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weird wiring issue
- Thread starter plplayer
- Start date
sberry
Banned
Its likely a switch loop of some sorts?
nkachur
Well-known member
can you take a picture of the inside of the box?
54FordPanel
Well-known member
I recently installed a new outlet so I could power my lm 3800. Well, earlier I tried to close the door and nothing happened, there was no power. I found out that there is a light switch that was turned off and that was what was causing the issue. I traced the wires back and this is where it doesn't make sense. In the attic there is a light attached to a junction box with four romex lines going into it. I opened the junction and found that one of the lines went to the switch for the attic light, another is what I assume is the feed, but it was wired weird. One of the hot legs tied into two neutrals. Is there a reason for this?
I always thought that you should never, ever have a neutral wired to a hot lead. It's actually pretty common to find that (especially when homeowners get to doing **** work.) It maybe was wired to a 2 way switch? Many times people use both the hot and the neutral as hot leads when they come from a 2 way switch.
What they are supposed to do, when they tie a hot lead into a neutral, is to tape the lead at both ends with tape to identify the wire as a hot wire.
*I'm not an electrician. I just do wiring in my houses and have seen alot of **** over the years. Including the SOB who wired the neutrals through the switch to the garbage disposal, and left the hot constantly on. I melted my dikes good on that one......
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I tried and tried again nearly all day to figure out what was going on and it has me stumped. There appears to be some kind of loop down in the garage at the light switch, then another up in the attic at a junction box. Then back in the garage at a second switch it's really odd. The neutral on the one switch is jumped over to the hot leg on the other switch. I just gave up, bought another roll of Romex and relocated it to another feed.
54FordPanel
Well-known member
It sounds like a 2 way switch. Did the switches have one lug on the one end, and 2 lugs on the other? If you get an ohm meter out, you'll see that they complete a circuit from the one lug end to either one or the other of the 2 lugs, depending on how the switch is thrown.I tried and tried again nearly all day to figure out what was going on and it has me stumped. There appears to be some kind of loop down in the garage at the light switch, then another up in the attic at a junction box. Then back in the garage at a second switch it's really odd. The neutral on the one switch is jumped over to the hot leg on the other switch. I just gave up, bought another roll of Romex and relocated it to another feed.
Anyway, it's probably a idea to run a hot lead from another source.
Yeah, it has a two way set up for the overhead lights in the garage, but the switch beside those switches are for the motion detector lights, which operate independently from one another. What is most confusing is what is in the junction box in the attic. Two wires go into it, one is the feed and the other comes off a single pole switch to operate the light up there. then two wire come out the other side. One goes to the switch in the garage and the other to the front motion light. Now inside the box two neutrals tie into one another with a jumper coming off of it going to the attic fixture. two hot legs tie into each other, then a hot leg ties into two neutrals. I had a buddy of mine over earlier who's done a lot of electrical work in the past and he was baffled as well.
Guys that work with romex cheat a lot when they need three hots and one neutral.
And 2 way switches, where they do switch the neural, with an extra leg going to the outside is a bit unusual.
In theory there should be some colored tape of magic marker to ID the stuff, but it isn’t always done.
I would find an outlet circuit and use it as a source.
And 2 way switches, where they do switch the neural, with an extra leg going to the outside is a bit unusual.
In theory there should be some colored tape of magic marker to ID the stuff, but it isn’t always done.
I would find an outlet circuit and use it as a source.
LoneGunman
Well-known member
"The neutral on the one switch is jumped over to the hot leg on the other switch. I just gave up, bought another roll of Romex and relocated it to another feed."
You may have a white wire going to the hot lead on the other switch, you do not have a neutral going to it or your breaker would trip. Sounds like your typical 2 wire switch leg to me.
You may have a white wire going to the hot lead on the other switch, you do not have a neutral going to it or your breaker would trip. Sounds like your typical 2 wire switch leg to me.
"The neutral on the one switch is jumped over to the hot leg on the other switch. I just gave up, bought another roll of Romex and relocated it to another feed."
You may have a white wire going to the hot lead on the other switch, you do not have a neutral going to it or your breaker would trip. Sounds like your typical 2 wire switch leg to me.
That makes sense that if it were a neutral it would trip the breaker. Still it's far beyond my wiring knowledge. Is there a reason for it?
Kevin54
MEMBER EMERITUS
Maybe I am missing something or it's too early in the morning, but what's the difference in what you are calling a two way switch and what a three way is? I am assuming that what plplayer has is a three way, but you guys are calling it a two way? Isn't a three way switch where I could turn it on at this end of the garage and turn it off at the other?
Falcon67
Well-known member
Maybe I am missing something or it's too early in the morning, but what's the difference in what you are calling a two way switch and what a three way is? I am assuming that what plplayer has is a three way, but you guys are calling it a two way? Isn't a three way switch where I could turn it on at this end of the garage and turn it off at the other?
That's what I call it - from the logic diagram more or less. There are three states, light off with both switches in the same position, light on with either switch on.
S1 S2 LITE
X X X
O X O
X O O
O O X
54FordPanel
Well-known member
Yea, in my world, 2 way and 3 way are pretty much interchangable. I think they should be called 2 way, but......
Another weird one is 220v single phase. To me, it's 2 phases, not a single phase. But electricians call it 220v single.
Another weird one is 220v single phase. To me, it's 2 phases, not a single phase. But electricians call it 220v single.
travisd
Well-known member
When I re-did my kitchen last year, we discovered that the box for the main kitchen light was a major junction for like 5 different runs. My brother-in-law Electrician helped me figure everything out -- basically, he labeled everything (so it could go back together, then we tested things out using a meter and voltage detector. With everything disconnected (and safely separated) turn power back on and determine the feed(s). Re-attach switch legs and test for power at the switch, etc. If you think you have a switch leg, you can also test with it disconnected by checking for continuity with a meter.
Yes, some of this involved "working hot" so play safe.
Labels and diagrams are your friend.
Yes, some of this involved "working hot" so play safe.
Labels and diagrams are your friend.
Falcon67
Well-known member
>Labels and diagrams are your friend.
Oh yea. I try to label every run and the boxes and/or covers with the circuit numbers and a name. Also made an electrical map of the house so I'd know what was on what. And yet I still get up in the attic for add ons and go "what the hell kinda mess is this right 'chere?!??"
Oh yea. I try to label every run and the boxes and/or covers with the circuit numbers and a name. Also made an electrical map of the house so I'd know what was on what. And yet I still get up in the attic for add ons and go "what the hell kinda mess is this right 'chere?!??"
JOHNMAN
Well-known member
I don't think that 2-way is a switch circuit unless you simply mean on and off.
The difference between 3-way and 4-way wiring is the number of switches.
3-way use 2 special 3-way switches.
4-way use 2 special 3-way switches and 1 or more 4-way switches between them.
The wiring is similar in that there are a couple of conductors that are sometimes hot. The "sometimes hot" conductor is called a traveler. There are a couple different configurations depending on how you have your load and your switches located. All function the same.
A 4-way circuit can be expanded to any number of switches by simply adding additional 4-way switches to the circuit.
It can be a bit of a challenge to troubleshoot if you didn't do the wiring, but it is not impossible.
There are many diagrams of 3-way and 4-way circuits available for free on the internet.
The difference between 3-way and 4-way wiring is the number of switches.
3-way use 2 special 3-way switches.
4-way use 2 special 3-way switches and 1 or more 4-way switches between them.
The wiring is similar in that there are a couple of conductors that are sometimes hot. The "sometimes hot" conductor is called a traveler. There are a couple different configurations depending on how you have your load and your switches located. All function the same.
A 4-way circuit can be expanded to any number of switches by simply adding additional 4-way switches to the circuit.
It can be a bit of a challenge to troubleshoot if you didn't do the wiring, but it is not impossible.
There are many diagrams of 3-way and 4-way circuits available for free on the internet.
The wiring in my house is insane. You open the breaker box only to find each 15 amp label reading "lights+outlets." There is absolutely no wire to work with in any of the boxes. But that junction in the attic literally looked like a birds nest when I opened it up.
Torque1st
MEMBER EMERITUS
Must have been wired by the same guy that wired my house.The wiring in my house is insane. You open the breaker box only to find each 15 amp label reading "lights+outlets." There is absolutely no wire to work with in any of the boxes. But that junction in the attic literally looked like a birds nest when I opened it up.