Weld Help Frustrated Opinion

[scratchedup]

I have several threads on GJ concerning my exhaust project. Since I do not weld I have a welder friend that is doing it. I thought he was really good but now I am not so sure.

Generally he welds big stuff...truck frames, trailers, gravel buckets... My stuff is TIG, small and fiddly.

I just picked up this piece. He was to weld up an expensive V-Band clamp joint. I have spent many many hours making these parts and as you can see one end is slightly warped and a perfect fit is now probably impossible!@#$%^&*()_+

IS IT POSSIBLE TO WELD THESE V-BAND FLANGES WITH OUT WARPING THEM?



REALLY FRUSTRATED.....

 

[MP&C]

I did mine using the Mig, could have used the Tig for a better joint, but it's what I used at the time... but fit-up showed no warping issues.

Looking at the welds on yours, it appears too much heat was used, likely what caused the warping.

 

[Jagmandave]

That gap doesn't look like it's too much for the clamp to pull together, I think it will be fine.

But to answer your question, maybe if you clamped it together while it's being welded, then let it cool while still clamped?

 

[scratchedup]

That gap doesn't look like it's too much for the clamp to pull together, I think it will be fine.

But to answer your question, maybe if you clamped it together while it's being welded, then let it cool while still clamped?

yes this is what i told him to do and im sure he did not do it.

yes I think it will work it just frustrating...all the time I have invested

The reason im doing this my self is due to **** quality and now here we go again.

Thanks though.

 

[MP&C]

I used a large tubing cutter to lightly mark the perimeter of the exhaust pipe where the weld would be, and then cut off below at where the joint would be. This gave me a good mark to tack weld while also keeping the ring perpendicular to the pipe. I did these separate, welded separate, and had good fitment. Perpendicular cuts and marks were key.....

 

[zkling]

They were welded too hot, based on the color of the beads. Now, why they were welded too hot Poor fitup, gaps, not properly clamped?

Welding stuff like that can be really challenging, especially without proper jigs. Ideally they should be clamped before, during and after (cool down) welding.
In the welders defense the warp / gap really doesn't look that bad. You need to figure out where exactly the warp is. If it is jut on one flange I would put it on a surface plate with a piece of sand paper to true it up.

Nothing in life is perfect. Do you do any welding yourself? That gap really doesn't look as bad as you make it out to be IMHO.

 

[t100]

looks like he got it too hot and there's no back purge to protect the inside of the pipe while he welding it.

these beads will not be stainless any more. they will be the first spot to start rust.

a picture of the welds inside the tubes will tell a lot of the weld quality. I'm afraid there's some 'sugering' going on.

if you got something like this, you are fucked.

 

[scratchedup]

They were welded too hot, based on the color of the beads. Now, why they were welded too hot Poor fitup, gaps, not properly clamped? THERE WERE NO GAPS AND EXCELLENT FITMENT...THIS IS WAY I'M FRUSTRATED....I DID ALL THE SET UP WORK...HOURS AND HOURS...DON'T THINK HE HAS MUCH OF A SHOP OR CLAMPING EQUIP...

Welding stuff like that can be really challenging, especially without proper jigs. Ideally they should be clamped before, during and after (cool down) welding.
In the welders defense the warp / gap really doesn't look that bad. HE JUST DOES NOT HAVE THE EQUIPMENT... You need to figure out where exactly the warp is. If it is jut on one flange I would put it on a surface plate with a piece of sand paper to true it up. IT WILL PROBABLY WORK.

PROBLEM IS THE WARP IS ON THE LEFT MALE SIDE.-

Nothing in life is perfect. YES I GET THIS BUT I JUST THINK THIS COULD BE DONE BETTER. RELATIVE TO THE CHINESE V-BAND FLANGES THERE IS A TON MORE MATERIAL HERE ON THE $$$ US MADE STUFF. Do you do any welding yourself? NO BUT NEXT I START WITH A SPORTAIR CLASS. That gap really doesn't look as bad as you make it out to be IMHO.

I appreciate your input...that is why I'm here. DIY can get very lonely.

 

[scratchedup]

looks like he got it too hot and there's no back purge to protect the inside of the pipe while he welding it.

these beads will not be stainless any more. they will be the first spot to start rust.

a picture of the welds inside the tubes will tell a lot of the weld quality. I'm afraid there's some 'sugering' going on.

if you got something like this, you are fucked.

OK I guess I'm Fxxked....




Can a guy welding in his garage have the appropriate equipment to prevent this inside the pipe?

 

[scratchedup]

BEFORE-
This is how it looked when I took it to my welder-no gaps....

 

[toms73novass]

Can a guy welding in his garage have the appropriate equipment to prevent this inside the pipe?

Yes, All that needs to be done is to have a "t" on the output side of the regulator. One side goes to the tig/mig torch the other has a valve (To reduce flow a bit more so gas is not wasted) with a ****** on the end that a small hose is connected to. Then the pipe being welded has one end taped off with a small hole so that argon can slowly escape with the otherend taped off and the hose inserted.

 

[SM Racing]

Now that it is welded, you can fix it. The warpage doesn't look too bad, but you should be able to flatten it with a belt sander. Just make sure it is kept level to avoid throwing off the pipe geometry.

As to doing it right? Well........ There is a reason all of us have so many tools.

 

[toms73novass]

As to doing it right? Well........ There is a reason all of us have so many tools.

That is going to be my sig line!!

 

[aabirdman]

Run it. With that sealing ridge in there the v clamp will pull it tight enough to seal

 

[bullnerd]

"Can a guy welding in his garage have the appropriate equipment to prevent this inside the pipe? "

We went over this in your other thread.I posted a link to a very informative video showing just how easy it is to do.Someone with a lot of turbo building experience also posted in your other thread not to worry about the sugaring.

 

[AZ Glen]

That should seal up considering there is a male and female side to it. My race car has tons of v-band clamps and I don't even use the O-rings on the intercooler tubing.

 

[scratchedup]

"Can a guy welding in his garage have the appropriate equipment to prevent this inside the pipe? "

We went over this in your other thread.I posted a link to a very informative video showing just how easy it is to do.Someone with a lot of turbo building experience also posted in your other thread not to worry about the sugaring.

I am looking for the link. Can you post it again please. Thanks.

BTW (again) this site has been a God send for me! Thank you all so much.

 

[scratchedup]

That should seal up considering there is a male and female side to it. My race car has tons of v-band clamps and I don't even use the O-rings on the intercooler tubing.

this is great stuff...
Do you have any issues with warpage?
I have a friend who is Enthuzacar http://enthuzacar.com
He can weld an aluminum can!
He's 50 miles away.

 

[scratchedup]

Since there is a male/female what about using lapping compound?

http://www.mcmaster.com/#lapping-compounds/=nhlw0x

 

[toms73novass]

If you want to check it with out all that work. Get 2 plumbing toilet expandable plugs that will fit the tubing ends (not where the flange is) and a tire valve stem. Clamp the vband together. Plug the end on one side with plug. On the other install valve in plug, then plug other end, pressurize to 5 psi, yes 5 psi, you will not see more than that in the exhaust, unless you have a turbo and it is pre turbo.

Check for leaks, no leaks, no extra work needed.

I have used this on my truck inter cooling piping that sees 50 psi.

 

[scratchedup]

If you want to check it with out all that work. Get 2 plumbing toilet expandable plugs that will fit the tubing ends (not where the flange is) and a tire valve stem. Clamp the vband together. Plug the end on one side with plug. On the other install valve in plug, then plug other end, pressurize to 5 psi, yes 5 psi, you will not see more than that in the exhaust, unless you have a turbo and it is pre turbo.

Check for leaks, no leaks, no extra work needed.

I have used this on my truck inter cooling piping that sees 50 psi.

THX, I'll do that. BTW dumb question alert...

I have a compressor set to ~ 90 PSI and air tools.

How do I extract and regulate +/- 5 PSI?

 

[scratchedup]

That should seal up considering there is a male and female side to it. My race car has tons of v-band clamps and I don't even use the O-rings on the intercooler tubing.

What is your source for the V-band clamps and can I purchase individual pieces?

 

[AZ Glen]

Race part solutions in Florida...let me know what you need I have some leftover new halves

 

[R.Anderson]

THX, I'll do that. BTW dumb question alert...

I have a compressor set to ~ 90 PSI and air tools.

How do I extract and regulate +/- 5 PSI?

You know how to build a race car but don't know how to get 5 psi from your air compressor?

Adjust your regulator to 5psi

 

[bullnerd]

My bad ..I apologize. I got yours confused with a similar thread...here...you may want to read it.

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=203804

Heres the vid...

http://api.viglink.com/api/click?fo.../ridE6PiN5H0&jsonp=vglnk_jsonp_13730590006686

 

[toms73novass]

How about bicycle pump

 

[rodknocker]

Your friend who welded that did right by a welders standards. In a perfect world the "stack of dimes" should look the same on the inside, as is does on the outside for proper penetration. I'd hit the inside with a die grinder, and not worry about it. As for the perfect fit, A quality flat ******* could take care of that in a few minutes. Don't be afraid to revert back to quality hand tools, a lot guys think a tool needs to be plugged in to get results, I disagree. Don't get me wrong, I use the electric tools to knock down the big stuff, then finesse it with the hand tool.

 

[csp]

THX, I'll do that. BTW dumb question alert...

I have a compressor set to ~ 90 PSI and air tools.

How do I extract and regulate +/- 5 PSI?

How do people know that they have 35psi (just selected a random number) in their tires?

 

[scratchedup]

You know how to build a race car but don't know how to get 5 psi from your air compressor?

Adjust your regulator to 5psi

well that would just be to easy

I need 5 psi for some other stuff too

Thought there might be an easy DIY rig I could plug in

but thanks for the encouragement

 

[scratchedup]

Your friend who welded that did right by a welders standards. In a perfect world the "stack of dimes" should look the same on the inside, as is does on the outside for proper penetration. I'd hit the inside with a die grinder, and not worry about it. As for the perfect fit, A quality flat ******* could take care of that in a few minutes. Don't be afraid to revert back to quality hand tools, a lot guys think a tool needs to be plugged in to get results, I disagree. Don't get me wrong, I use the electric tools to knock down the big stuff, then finesse it with the hand tool.

I like this

Ordering McMaster-Carr Lapping compound.

 

[scratchedup]

How do people know that they have 35psi (just selected a random number) in their tires?

?

faith?

I'm just a guy how enjoys study and playing with tools. I have no training but the older I get the questioninger I get.

I can do this...

 

[scratchedup]

This is my DIY ****-


This is my day job-


Thanks for all your help!

 

[R.Anderson]

well that would just be to easy

I need 5 psi for some other stuff too

Thought there might be an easy DIY rig I could plug in

but thanks for the encouragement

Ah, in that case I would buy another regulator and some fittings. Make a quick connect adjustable preset regulator.

 

[t100]

there's some old school alternatives for back purging when welding stainless. one of them is using Solar B flux.

it's an extremely fine beige color powder, mix it with water or alcohol(preferred) to a paste. smear it over the back side to cover projected Heat Affected Zone. it will become glass when heated up, blocking the molten metal in contact with air, therefore protecting the welds.

this stuff has been around for a long long time:

https://weldingsupply.com/cgi-bin/einstein.pl?PNUM::1:UNDEF:X:S0FB01

 

[theknurl]

there's some old school alternatives for back purging when welding stainless. one of them is using Solar B flux.

it's an extremely fine beige color powder, mix it with water or alcohol(preferred) to a paste. smear it over the back side to cover projected Heat Affected Zone. it will become glass when heated up, blocking the molten metal in contact with air, therefore protecting the welds.

this stuff has been around for a long long time:

https://weldingsupply.com/cgi-bin/einstein.pl?PNUM::1:UNDEF:X:S0FB01

+100....t100

its aka San Diego Mud, been around forever

the welder should have welded the flange to the tube 1st, on a rotary table, then he wouldn't have needed to lean on the pedal so hard

definitely, way too much heat

and it looks like he went over it more than once

oh, i have a multi-gas and back flow set up hooked up, almost never use the back flow though
but the variable mix Ar/He get used all the time....saves TIME and electricity......i'll preheat castings....but wrought stuff?
please



i just started welding......57 years ago

 

[scratchedup]

.....these last 3 responses..... This is why I love GJ!
My fear is because it is helpful and free our government will prohibit it

I found a different welder (CAF) ....totally different weld!


Sorry for the profanity....I was excited.

 

[csp]

?

faith?

I'm just a guy how enjoys study and playing with tools. I have no training but the older I get the questioninger I get.

I can do this...

You seriously don't know how to determine how much pressure is in a tire?

You check it with a pressure gauge! Damn, I can't believe that wasn't obvious.

Whe you have a tire that's low, you add a little bit and check the pressure with a gauge. Add more if needed, let some bleed out the valve if there's too much. You could do the same thing with the tubing pressure check.

Maybe you're just overthinking it.......

 

[trboxman]

You know how to build a race car but don't know how to get 5 psi from your air compressor?

Adjust your regulator to 5psi

Or use an air chuck with a gauge just like you'd use to get 35psi in your tires.

 

[Kevin54]

This is the second thread that you asked about lapping the part isn't it? Just curious.

What should have been done to begin with is that the parts should have been made so they could have been welded first, then machined if you wanted a zero tolerance mating surface. Any time you apply heat to anything, you stand a chance of warping it. all of your flanges should have been made to be machined after welding. No way around it for zero tolerance.

Like I replied to you in another thread, it you want to lap them, you're going to have to come up with some sort of tool that you can rotate around the one flange with lapping compound, the female side, you can stone it flat.

When you design something, you have to look at it in "worst case scenario" and figure how to rework the part if something goes south. With what you have now, it's going to take a lot of filing and stoning to get the parts where you want them. You may be able to take a mallet and move the flange some, but I seriously doubt it. You won't know until you try.

As far as lapping something, you have to have a known flat surface to be able to lapp a part in flat. They make plates called lapping plates that are ground flat, cast iron and have grooves throughout the plate so only a small amount of lapping compound is actually being used, and it will imbed itself into the plate. If you can get someone to make you a plate like this, or if you are machining all of your own parts, make a plate like this, then you MIGHT just be able to slowly get the male side lapped in. But you have to remember that either the lapping plate, or the male side of your flange will need to rotate to get it flat. You may be able to turn down a plate and instead of having a hole through it, make a recessed pocket, then turn it down so you can drive it with a drill. At this point, you don't have anything to lose.

 

[03protege]

Your friend who welded that did right by a welders standards. In a perfect world the "stack of dimes" should look the same on the inside, as is does on the outside for proper penetration. I'd hit the inside with a die grinder, and not worry about it. As for the perfect fit, A quality flat ******* could take care of that in a few minutes. Don't be afraid to revert back to quality hand tools, a lot guys think a tool needs to be plugged in to get results, I disagree. Don't get me wrong, I use the electric tools to knock down the big stuff, then finesse it with the hand tool.

That was just what I was thinking.

I don't see why this cannot be salvaged and serviceable.