Welder confusion...what do I really need?

[drb007]

I had posted a thread this week about trying to put together the right oxy acetelyne welding set up. My dad brought up his Smiths set yesterday, which is probably 30-35 years old, but in really nice shape. He has the cutting torch on it, and "thinks" he knows where the welding tips are.
We went to the LWS and got prices on the tips just in case they aren't found...$40 each. Everyone thought I needed two, so I'm at $80, plus flashback arrestors, goggles, etc. OR...just spend $200 and get the whole new package with everything but tanks...OR...spend $280 and get the Pro Model...

Then we started talking, and one of the guys there restores cars, which I am working on. This guy was adamant that I not use oxy acetelyne for welding. He recommended that I get the Thermal Arc 181i 3-in-1 MIG TIG Stick welder. This would be about $1100 with everything I need. This includes the TIG gun, tank, cart, etc.

I have a wirefeed welder for fluxcore welding (and I don't like it...$99 from HF...it was a gift). I have no other welders. I have been able to weld some of the medium gauge brackets and such with the wirefeed, but I blow big holes in the sheet metal for the body work.

So my questions? What do I really need? I want to weld 18g sheet metal for some of the body work. I will also be doing some heavier welding from time to time. Should I abandon OA welding altogether and just get a really good MIG welder? Would having the TIG be useful?
The 181i looks very nice, gets good reviews, and I would finally get to use the 220 outlet in my shop
Would appreciate some guidance!

 

[Jackfre]

I did a bunch of body work on a 72 BMW a few years ago. Many years ago I was a pro welder but a pipe welder and had never done a lot of body work or thin stuff. I had a heck of a time. Try this. Get a 4" piece of 1 1/2 or 2" copper pipe. Pound it flat and back up your welds with it. The backing material and heat sink effect of the CU will help a lot. Personally I detest flux core. I run a little Miller 110V model 135 for body work and like it a lot. Your welds are going to be a series of tacks and you will spread them to reduce blow out and fill in. Your grinder will be your friend. this is all a lot easier with an auto darkening helmet. the helmet is probably more important to you than the welder. they are your eyes! The problem with OA torches on thin stuff is that you have to be a hand or you end up overheating the metal badly, at least in my experience.

 

[Jagmandave]

A decent MIG will do exactly what you want a welder for, just get one with shield gas capability.

You don't even need a 220, a 120V unit will do fine, but I'd look for a nice Miller or Lincoln rather than a HF and you will need a 20A dedicated circuit to power it.....

If you're planning to weld up a frame for a hot rod or something, then you'll need more than this, but if you're primarily doing sheet metal work plus welding the occasional bracket as you described, this is fine.

 

[Grumpy365]

I had posted a thread this week about trying to put together the right oxy acetelyne welding set up. My dad brought up his Smiths set yesterday, which is probably 30-35 years old, but in really nice shape. He has the cutting torch on it, and "thinks" he knows where the welding tips are.
We went to the LWS and got prices on the tips just in case they aren't found...$40 each. Everyone thought I needed two, so I'm at $80, plus flashback arrestors, goggles, etc. OR...just spend $200 and get the whole new package with everything but tanks...OR...spend $280 and get the Pro Model...

Then we started talking, and one of the guys there restores cars, which I am working on. This guy was adamant that I not use oxy acetelyne for welding. He recommended that I get the Thermal Arc 181i 3-in-1 MIG TIG Stick welder. This would be about $1100 with everything I need. This includes the TIG gun, tank, cart, etc.

I have a wirefeed welder for fluxcore welding (and I don't like it...$99 from HF...it was a gift). I have no other welders. I have been able to weld some of the medium gauge brackets and such with the wirefeed, but I blow big holes in the sheet metal for the body work.

So my questions? What do I really need? I want to weld 18g sheet metal for some of the body work. I will also be doing some heavier welding from time to time. Should I abandon OA welding altogether and just get a really good MIG welder? Would having the TIG be useful?
The 181i looks very nice, gets good reviews, and I would finally get to use the 220 outlet in my shop
Would appreciate some guidance!

That is REALLY BAD advice. Any coach work guy will tell you the mig makes the metal to hard. You HAVE to use Oxygen Acetaline (or tig) so you can work the metal after you weld it.

If you are doing cookie cutter cars, sure use a mig, it's fast and easy, but for a restoration use gas.

 

[1948]

flashback arrestors... humbug. my grandpa my dad and myself have never been blown up, nor have i ever heard of anyone getting blown up from that specific thing.

 

[Beaumont67]

This is one of the best tig/mig/stick Auto-Darkening Welding Helmet, for the money.
(comparable to those costing 4x more)

http://www.northerntool.com/shop/to...lding Helmets&cm_cat=Nextag&cm_ven=Aggregates
Overall Rating: 4.9 / 5
Rating Summary (18 reviews) 5 stars
18 of 18(100%)would recommend this product to a friend.

Welding Buyer's Guide Spec....from Northern Industrial
Auto Darkening Yes
View Area W x H (in.) 3.82 x 2.44
Switch time (sec.) 1/25,000
Adjustable Sensitivity Yes
Variable Shades 9 - 13
UV/IR Coated Lens Yes
Adjustable Fit 4-point adjustable headgear, replaceable sweat band
Power Supply Solar w/ Battery Back-Up
Low Battery Indicator Yes
Battery Included Yes, requires charge
ANSI Approved Yes
Manufacturer Warranty 12 months parts / 12 months labor
Ship Weight 2.0 lbs
Item# 1644910

Overview ($139.99 list / $118.99 sale price...now gone)
This solar-powered high-impact nylon helmet features a large 3.82in. x 2.44in. viewing area — making it ideal for seeing more of the workplace when wearing glasses.

Features + Benefits
• Four independent arc sensors
• Delay and sensitivity internal adjustable
• 2 x CR2450 lithium battery replaceable with low battery indicator

 

[Beaumont67]

I got my used Ocy/Acet Victor setup...35 years ago for $25...very nice unit with my own "B" size tanks...no rental contract.
I could steel weld pipe good, but sheetmetal not so good...so I brazed all my panels, decades ago.
- never cool autobody welds with water...use compressed air until cool to the touch, reduces sheetmetal distortion

Bought a new Miller 150 mig (220Volt) mig 15 years ago for $1500 complete (for body work) and love it w/owned bottle of argon/Co2 mix.
- but a good helment helps the learning curve...(spend more than 50 bucks here, if you can).
- best mig wire is .023" for sheetmetal (even a softer wire version available) / but I am still using .030" (more grinding hard welds flat)

Bought a used Cannox AC/DC stick welder used...good for thicker metal., like using 7018 DC rod best.
- mint shape and limited use for $300 at a garage sale

I would love to have a Tig setup / don't know if a kit is available for my Mig or Arc Welding machine.
- I bought new & used...and never rent tanks
I have just slightly over $2.000 invested in total, in all of my welding equipment...some bought when a good deal came up.

 

[Crusty Nut]

sounds like the guy at the WS is just trying to make a sale. gas welding is great for sheet metal. It does not over harden the metal and it is still workable. I have a torch and a big Miller MIG and they both get a lot of use, but if I could only afford one, it would be the torch. It can do everything:heating, cutting, welding, brazing, soldering.

 

[NUTTSGT]

Buy yourself a decent Miller or Hobart mig welder that uses gas, forget the fluxcore stuff. If you plan on heavier gauge stuff step up to a 220V welder for the initial purchase, no need to buy a welder twice.

One thing I have seen before with the 3-in-1 welders, (personally I have no experience with them) some guys say they will do all three but not very well. I'd stick a machine that does one thing.

I'll also agree with the auto-darkening helemt purchase. It make a world of differncefor a beginner to learn how to weld.

 

[Tarheelgarage]

This is one of the best tig/mig/stick Auto-Darkening Welding Helmet, for the money.
(comparable to those costing 4x more)

http://www.northerntool.com/shop/to...lding Helmets&cm_cat=Nextag&cm_ven=Aggregates
Overall Rating: 4.9 / 5
Rating Summary (18 reviews) 5 stars
18 of 18(100%)would recommend this product to a friend.

Welding Buyer's Guide Spec....from Northern Industrial
Auto Darkening Yes
View Area W x H (in.) 3.82 x 2.44
Switch time (sec.) 1/25,000
Adjustable Sensitivity Yes
Variable Shades 9 - 13
UV/IR Coated Lens Yes
Adjustable Fit 4-point adjustable headgear, replaceable sweat band
Power Supply Solar w/ Battery Back-Up
Low Battery Indicator Yes
Battery Included Yes, requires charge
ANSI Approved Yes
Manufacturer Warranty 12 months parts / 12 months labor
Ship Weight 2.0 lbs
Item# 1644910

Overview ($139.99 list / $118.99 Sale price...now gone)
This solar-powered high-impact nylon helmet features a large 3.82in. x 2.44in. viewing area — making it ideal for seeing more of the workplace when wearing glasses.

Features + Benefits
• Four independent arc sensors
• Delay and sensitivity internal adjustable
• 2 x CR2450 lithium battery replaceable with low battery indicator

X2.
I've had that same helmet for a year now and it is as good as top of line miller helmets for a lot less $s.

 

[drb007]

The helmet I have...two actually, and nice ones. So I'm covered there. Just need to decide on the welder. The reviews on the Thermal Arc 181i are pretty good..very good Mig and TIG function. It's lightweight, versatile, and I would be able to TIG for the same price as a Miller 211...so many choices!

 

[Beaumont67]

Tarheelgarage - My new Northern Indusrrial $118.99 helmet...was delivered yesterday...Yah-Hoo
- the first scratch & weld splatter will ****...tips real nice, and head band is very comfortable
(love the big viewing window with bi-focal glasses underneath...should of had one years ago)

Here are some reviews, maybe across the pond...looks like an interesting 3-1 multi-purpose machine:
TA 181i http://www.mig-welding.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=28043
Well, I ran this thing through it's paces at a show last week. 32# and very cool features. It has a built in Hot Start for Stick Welding which makes re-strike on 7018 a dream..Also has Arc Force. Has a remote switch for an extended voltage control. On Tig, it has lift start and trigger lock for running hand amp control torches or you can just use a foot control. has down slope too. What really has me sold is the Mig side. Nice arc with an external Inductance control. They showed me that you can weld Stainless with no spatter, run CO2 with no spatter, Have a soft arc or a coarse arc or any arc you want. Burn Back control and takes a spoolgun. I enjoyed the inverter arc compared to the old transformer styles I use most often. I am unsure on durability but it has a 3 year warranty I am told. The sales guy said they had 4 more due out soon like in the 250 amp range and a 110 - 220 200 amp. I may wait for that one. They were selling the 181i for $895.00. No-one would say how much the 110v 140 3 in 1 would cost or the big ones but i think the 211 will work for me. It is actually 211 amps. I think Millers is 180. Either way it's nice to see new stuff for a change. My machines are getting Old!..That is all I know about the New Purple Machines.

Thermal Arc Fabricator 181i – WMR Rating: 9.3
Thermal Arc doesn’t hold back on useful features either.
•Infinite Voltage Control
•Inductance Control
•Victor and Tweco Accessories
•Spool Gun Compatible
•Lift TIG Start
•Hot Start
•Adjustable Burnback Control
•4″ – 8″ spool capacity
http://weldingmachinereview.com/thermal-arc-fabricator-181i-multi-process-welder/
About Jonathon Perry
Jonathon Perry is lead editor at WMR.
He has 10 years experience in the editorial and welding industries.

http://www.thermadyne.com/thermalarc.html
The Thermal Arc 3-in-1 multi process welding systems are changing the game in welding. A new standard for portable welding equipment delivering 3-in-1 MIG, Stick and TIG capability from one integrated portable system.

The Fabricator® 181i is a portable powerhouse designed to deliver from 10 to 180 Amps of welding output power from 230 Volts input.

The Fabricator® 252i can deliver high output, high duty cycle for light industrial welding applications.

And arriving this summer, the Fabricator® 211i offers maximum versatility, accommodating 4", 8" and industrial size 33 & 44 lb.12" spools, 210 Amps of maximum output, and 115 and 208/230 VAC input power for virtually any welding environment.

The 3-in-1 welding systems are unmatched in the marketplace.
From Thermal Arc... the leaders in integrated multi-process solutions.
Video at: http://www.thermadyne.com/Thermal Arc 3in1/Fabricator 181i/media_downloads.php

 

[Crusty Nut]

all you auto darkening helmet guys are missing the boat. http://www.accustrike.com/ is the bees knees.

 

[brownbagg]

I hate my mig welder, its a miller 185. Nothing wrong with the brand, i just dont like mig. I rather stick weld, gas weld or tig weld, which is a miller too.

everybody like mig because it take no skill or talent, just pull the trigger, but it makes ugly weld unless machine set up right. Mig surface has to perfect clean for good welds.

now somebody will reply, nu huh.

gas is slow, you can take your time, you dont have to fight the machine.

 

[Crusty Nut]

Brownbag, first you say MIG takes no skill, unless the machine is setup correctly. Doesn't that take skill? MIG is easy compared to other processes, but if it truly took no skill there would be no need for welding school.

 

[Zeke]

I have a Thermal Arc TIG. Didn't know they made the 181i. Sounds like a good tool for the money and for a small shop. I have the better model; dual voltage and with pulse. I currently use a finger control, but it's set up for a foot control.

Lift start *****. You need to be able to ramp up and ramp down at your own rate to make nice welds from beginning to end.

But, If I didn't have the Thermal Arc and a Lincoln MIG. I'd buy a 181i. The 252i looks even better. Probably has more settings like HF start and pulse (which you won't use much.)

 

[djkeev]

I restore old Air Cooled VW's here in the North East. We've got rust in spades and I am forever cutting out rusted panels and installing repops or making new panels as needed.

I'm by no means a pro and am only adequate at welding. I learned to gas weld and then Electric arc weld. I recently acquired a MIG welder for my body work and couldn't be happier with it.

I got a Hobart Handler 140. It isn't for heavy steel but performs well on sheet metal and thinner rolled stock.

I manufacture a lot of smaller pieces using sheet metal and a torch. My ox/acy is excellent for this process. I weld in the edge of the panel and then heat the panel and using hammers pound the piece to fit the shape I need. I'll take a small cut off wheel and cut away the rusted metal to the edge of the patch panel and **** weld the panel to the neighboring good metal.

As far as Ox / acy not being good for body work, how do you think the factory years ago assembled these cars? Yes, a lot of electric spot welds but many body seams were gas welded.

The advice you got form that guy *****! Would a TIG be a better welder? Maybe but for the money I spent I couldn't be happier!

I've heard / read that the higher voltage 220 MIG's have too much power for thin sheet metal even on low settings.

Know why you want the welder and purchase a good BRAND NAME unit accordingly. Cheap is as Cheap costs from everything I've seen in welders.

Also, get the gas shielded MIG welder, it's a much better weld, not all the splatter and mess that the flux core wire puts out.

Dave

 

[NUTTSGT]

I hate my mig welder, its a miller 185. Nothing wrong with the brand, i just dont like mig. I rather stick weld, gas weld or tig weld, which is a miller too.

everybody like mig because it take no skill or talent, just pull the trigger, but it makes ugly weld unless machine set up right. Mig surface has to perfect clean for good welds.

now somebody will reply, nu huh.

gas is slow, you can take your time, you dont have to fight the machine.

Since you hate it, I'll send you $100 bucks and another 50 for shipping.

 

[Kevin54]

If the guy tells you that you can't do it with a Oxy/Acet. outfit, tell him to piss up a rope.

The old timers...that was all they had and built many custom car with the outfit. MIG and TIG is great and goes along with todays cars, but if you can learn to gas weld, then go for it. You'll find out the weld are just as good or better than a MIG or TIG. Plus you have the added benifit of having a cutting torch to use. If you have the "rosebud" with it, all the better.