Welder for beginner
- Thread starter katit
- Start date
sberry
Banned
I am a career welder. I do have some aluminum most people don't but the spool gun has replaced the tig for that. I fired up my Tig the first time in 15 years the other day for a customer job. We make 1000's of welds a year, mostly mig and even welded a BB to a wire the other day. I don't tig unless I have to,,, but part of the reason being is that I don't do it. Especially steel, I find alum more forgiving so to speak but if I can work around it I do.
General fab and maint is a bit different than hanging out a shingle as an alloy welding shop. 5000 steel welds for 1 needs something else, before the other day the last stainless I did was with a stick rod.
ekimneirbo
Well-known member
I didn't read all the posts but did see some reccommendations. So here is the thing.....
Everyone always has trouble convincing themselves to part with sufficient money to get a really good welder. First, forget Tig until later in your life. It is a very different animal than a MIG. A Mig is very easy to learn to use.....if you bite the bullet and get a good machine. I used to be a fan of Lincoln and its still a good machine, but once I switched to Miller I thought I would never look back. The problem is that most everyone who wants to learn to weld wants to start with a cheap machine till they learn how. Thats mistake #1 because you get bad welds and give up. Forget 110 volts and forget any machine that uses flux coated wire. If you buy them you will be limited and disappointed. I have 3 welders + a oxy/acy torch. I have progressed with the size of my welders over the years due to theft and upgrading. I'm very happy with Miller.
I have a Miller 350P (much more than I need), a Miller Dynasty Tig, and a recently purchased ESAB. I bought the ESAB because it was a sale item and I wanted to set up a machine for small .023 wire to just do sheetmetal. It broke after 15 minutes. Factory sent me another new one to replace it. Yea for factory service. I'm not impressed at all with the drive system, but I like the small lightweight gun. Hope it holds up?
I've seen so many people CHEAP OUT when they buy a welder. From the tone of your post you appear to be tippytoeing around what to buy.
Once you get a DECENT welder, you will find welding fun to do. I have shown several people how and they picked it up immediately. They were amazed how well they did with just a few pointers. Biggest mistake beginners make is wrong setting and as they begin welding they don't realize they are gradually moving the nozzle away slightly and
changing the nozzle angle slightly. They don't realize they are doing it and the weld looks like ****. Once you recognize that, its easy to correct.
I know this has been an aggressive reply, and I intended it that way to get your attention. Now I'm gonna get serious. Listen to me and you will be happy. Don't listen to me and buy something cheaper and you will regret being cheap. When you buy a decent welder it a lifetime purchase for many people. Check around and see if there are any repair shops for offbrands in your area. Last check, the Chinese offbrands offered a great price but you had to pay shipping to California for repairs. A significant point.
My son has a Miller 212. Its a full size machine and has autoset. The auto set works very well. Just adjust the knob to the thickness of the material and the other knob to the wire size you are using. Thats where most amatuer welders screw up, and the auto set will get you where you need to be. You can adjust it from that point if you wish, but it works very good and very simply. Five years ago we paid $1700 for it. Today they are selling for about $2200. We could sell it today for what we paid for it. Most Millers will retain 80% of their purchase price for about ten years and still command high prices long after that. Bottom Line: If you listen to me and go buy a Miller 212 and don't cheap out, you will enjoy welding for many years and it can probably be all you will ever need. Best place I found is Indiana Oxygen (Netwelder) on Ebay. Usually the best prices and they ship it to your door. Might find an auto show or trade show near you and find a sale price there. JUST DON'T CHEAP OUT OR YOU WILL REGRET ITThats the best I can do to try to make the point. Good Luck
Everyone always has trouble convincing themselves to part with sufficient money to get a really good welder. First, forget Tig until later in your life. It is a very different animal than a MIG. A Mig is very easy to learn to use.....if you bite the bullet and get a good machine. I used to be a fan of Lincoln and its still a good machine, but once I switched to Miller I thought I would never look back. The problem is that most everyone who wants to learn to weld wants to start with a cheap machine till they learn how. Thats mistake #1 because you get bad welds and give up. Forget 110 volts and forget any machine that uses flux coated wire. If you buy them you will be limited and disappointed. I have 3 welders + a oxy/acy torch. I have progressed with the size of my welders over the years due to theft and upgrading. I'm very happy with Miller.
I have a Miller 350P (much more than I need), a Miller Dynasty Tig, and a recently purchased ESAB. I bought the ESAB because it was a sale item and I wanted to set up a machine for small .023 wire to just do sheetmetal. It broke after 15 minutes. Factory sent me another new one to replace it. Yea for factory service. I'm not impressed at all with the drive system, but I like the small lightweight gun. Hope it holds up?
I've seen so many people CHEAP OUT when they buy a welder. From the tone of your post you appear to be tippytoeing around what to buy.
Once you get a DECENT welder, you will find welding fun to do. I have shown several people how and they picked it up immediately. They were amazed how well they did with just a few pointers. Biggest mistake beginners make is wrong setting and as they begin welding they don't realize they are gradually moving the nozzle away slightly and
changing the nozzle angle slightly. They don't realize they are doing it and the weld looks like ****. Once you recognize that, its easy to correct.
I know this has been an aggressive reply, and I intended it that way to get your attention. Now I'm gonna get serious. Listen to me and you will be happy. Don't listen to me and buy something cheaper and you will regret being cheap. When you buy a decent welder it a lifetime purchase for many people. Check around and see if there are any repair shops for offbrands in your area. Last check, the Chinese offbrands offered a great price but you had to pay shipping to California for repairs. A significant point.
My son has a Miller 212. Its a full size machine and has autoset. The auto set works very well. Just adjust the knob to the thickness of the material and the other knob to the wire size you are using. Thats where most amatuer welders screw up, and the auto set will get you where you need to be. You can adjust it from that point if you wish, but it works very good and very simply. Five years ago we paid $1700 for it. Today they are selling for about $2200. We could sell it today for what we paid for it. Most Millers will retain 80% of their purchase price for about ten years and still command high prices long after that. Bottom Line: If you listen to me and go buy a Miller 212 and don't cheap out, you will enjoy welding for many years and it can probably be all you will ever need. Best place I found is Indiana Oxygen (Netwelder) on Ebay. Usually the best prices and they ship it to your door. Might find an auto show or trade show near you and find a sale price there. JUST DON'T CHEAP OUT OR YOU WILL REGRET ITThats the best I can do to try to make the point. Good Luck
ekimneirbo
Well-known member
NO NO NO NO NO NO NO
Its just a waste of money and it will set in the corner of your shop.
Sorry to be rude, but anyone wanting to learn to weld should not even consider anything that uses flux cored wire or 110 volts. You WILL be sorry. Read my previous post. Don't mean to sound like a know-it-all or that nobody else knows anything.......but I'm telling you that these chincy welders turn more people away from welding than they help. Fancy names like "Titanium" sound great but the results aren't !
Anyone truly wanting welding to be part of their skill set needs to purchase a decent machine to use, and a $129 machine isn't going to do it. If they were worth a **** all the pro welders would be scooping them up.
Well. I was thinking about buying HF item, but I didn't yet. I'm taking lessons from gentleman with Lincolns (see my post with pic above). He told me exact same thing you said. And yes, his Lincoln MIG has Auto-set and very easy to use. And I made good welds with it.
So, even if I do get HF (which I probably won't) - I will know difference because I already tried better welder. And I will be taking more lessons, probably 6-8hr more so I will remember what is good or bad.
Stick welding I did was done on DC with reverse polarity which should be easier, but not very easy for me.
Last edited:
Aaron_W
Well-known member
That Lincoln 210MP or the similar Miller 215 are less than 2x the price of the HF. I realize $600-700 dollars is not a trivial amount of money, but a good quality welder can easily be a lifetime purchase for a home shop.
I spent a lot more, like 3-4x my initial budget when I bought my welder. I did that with the expectation that I won't be buying another unless I seriously increase my welding needs.
Bottom Line: If you listen to me and go buy a Miller 212 and don't cheap out, you will enjoy welding for many years and it can probably be all you will ever need. Best place I found is Indiana Oxygen (Netwelder) on Ebay. Usually the best prices and they ship it to your door. Might find an auto show or trade show near you and find a sale price there. JUST DON'T CHEAP OUT OR YOU WILL REGRET ITThats the best I can do to try to make the point. Good Luck
Indiana Oxygen is $2572 for a Miller 212 (907405)
Cyberweld is $2205 for a Miller 212 (907405)
$367 difference. Both have free shipping. Someone has to pay those eBay fees!
I use Cyberweld regularly--they're relatively local to me. Always great service and prices.
As to the OP, I was in the same situation and went with a Miller 211 during a great holiday promotion. Never disappointed. But 3/8" plate is not in my future.
ZRX61
Well-known member
She'd been properly dressed for welding, then after we were done she wanted a pic for grandma so it was just a quick squirt with the mig, maybe 2 or 3 secondsShort sleeved shirt????????
Bill
ekimneirbo
Well-known member
I misspoke when I said "netwelder" which is also out of Indianapolis like IOC. Netwelder is higher, but IOC is about $2200 with free shipping. I have bought 5 welders from them over the years. Quick ship and good customer service. I don't have experience with Cyberweld. Whoever I order from, I use eBay/PayPal. Then if I have a problem, they resolve it. Won't go into details, but ordered a $2000 tool and it arrived damaged. Guy tried to say we must have damaged it unloading it in a flat paved parking lot and backing up 4 ft to set the pallet down. Said damage didn't happen during 1800 mile trip in pos. crate. PayPal solved the issue. So I like using that means of buying expensive tools.
The OP is getting some bad ideas about needing a "stick welder" for thicker steel. No, you don't need a stick welder. If you buy a Miller 212 you CAN weld 3/8 steel easily and you will never use a stick welder again. I'm not blowing smoke, so quit trying to find ways to waste your money on stuff that you won't want or need. I'm telling you, DON'T CHEAP OUT. YOU WILL REGRET IT. I can't make it any plainer than that. YOU WILL,.......
Additional info: Katit, Think about what you just said. With the Lincoln welder which is a better model than a Harbor Freight, you can't even weld 1/4" plate. If you want to weld thin sheetmetal and never any real projects and have welds that look like s bunch of chickens left something behind........
Bet you are welding with 110 volts too.
Last edited:
Lassen Forge
Well-known member
If you're just learning do what tens of thousands of high school kids did - Get a used Lincoln Tombstone, a bunch of 1/4" plate scraps, and a few bundles of 6013 and 7018. When you get the puddle, sound, and bead down doing beads, change to 90's, and work from there. There's a reason that's what they used to teach the basics...
When you can do 40 ton welds and can sign your name, you would have passed our high school welding block, and could move on to the wire feeds and TIGs. But you gotta know the basics first.
You need to develop good habits before you get fancy schmancy.
When you can do 40 ton welds and can sign your name, you would have passed our high school welding block, and could move on to the wire feeds and TIGs.
But you gotta know the basics first.You need to develop good habits before you get fancy schmancy.
Last edited:
ekimneirbo
Well-known member
Are you operating on 110 volts? On 220 it should weld 3/8.
sberry
Banned
It isn't money wasted. Its the workhorse in small shops and a machine a guy wants even if he gets others. I got 5 other machines, use a 180 feeder 95% of the time.
Last edited:
Yes, I am. I do not have 220v available to me currently. That's what makes the 211 such a versatile machine--you can use it on 220 at home if you have it and 110 someplace it isn't available. Plus its small and relatively light. I take mine places all the time, bottle and all.
If 3/8" plate was something I was going to do regularly, I would get a bigger machine. Since I'm unlikely to ever need to do that, the 211 was the ticket for me.
sberry
Banned
My neighbor has a 175 wire feed and such an expert can make it do anything it can. For hobby, maint and light fab if I had 1 machine would be a 200 class mig running 030 solid. I work on a bit of other equipment, I use some small sticks which could be easily done with modern small inverter which I also prefer for portable. If I had to do a little alum to save my azz would have a spooly, 030 wire.
ZRX61
Well-known member
I have a MM210 & a Syncrowave 200, I'd also have a Hobart 187/190 & a smaller Miller 140 if I had a bigger space ... *just because*
sberry
Banned
While it's a common assumption that bigger machines are a must have for a real welding shop I would be hard pressed to do without the smaller mig. The purchase price is lot less and can use it on spare/backup/2nd gas bottle. My neighbor had left his 140 here for a while and I used it a couple of times. Got 80 cf bottle, it's reasonable to move, small wire is easier on occasion.
ekimneirbo
Well-known member
It really boils down to whether someone is willing to spend a reasonable amount of money to aquire a machine that will do everything from thin to thick welding and last a lifetime OR they fool themselves into believing they can do everything they want witha piece of **** because they won't spend the required money.
Buy a HF and be dissatisfied with it and give up on welding and its worth nothing.
Buy a 212 Miller and you can weld virtually anything your heart desires. If you don't like it you can resell it and get most of your money back five years later. We paid $1700 for my sons 212 welder five years ago and now they sell for $2200 or more. He can get his money back if he wanted to, but he loves it. Pony up and you won't be sorry.
Buy a HF and be dissatisfied with it and give up on welding and its worth nothing.
Buy a 212 Miller and you can weld virtually anything your heart desires. If you don't like it you can resell it and get most of your money back five years later. We paid $1700 for my sons 212 welder five years ago and now they sell for $2200 or more. He can get his money back if he wanted to, but he loves it. Pony up and you won't be sorry.
Aaron_W
Well-known member
I love my wife, but if I had to maintain a girlfriend in addition to my wife, my brain would have exploded years ago.
The 212 I'm sure is a fine machine, but all you get over the Lincoln 210, Miller 211 or 215 is better duty cycle and 4-5x the weight. 212 is still transformer based I'm guessing, which would make it desirable for those who don't trust inverter machines.
If I was buying a light duty MIG welder for frequent fab work, I could see spending the money over a 211. Of course you could also spend another $800 and get a Miller 255 which is even more capable than the 212, so that game has no end.
A multi-process like the Lincoln 210 or Miller 215 is more versatile and mobile at nearly the same price when equipped for DC TIG, or several hundred cheaper without. Really apple and oranges though, the 212 will only really show its superiority on larger jobs, and it of course has zero utility as a stick or TIG machine. The lack of 120v only matters if it matters, but the 212 is worthless if you need the ability to run it on 120v.
The 212 vs 211 / 215 on MIG, you are looking at a 60% @ 160A, and 30% @ 210 vs 40% @150A and 20% @ 200A.
Lincoln 210 has similar duty cycle to 215, but Lincoln is more a pain to look up specs.
I'm by no means an experienced welder, so only commenting on what I went through buying a welder, and using it since then. I think one of the most valuable things I got from welding class was learning what the specs mean, so I could make real comparisons between what are often very similar machines.
Last edited:
Aaron_W
Well-known member
Just a guess, people see things from their personal experiences. I think you are just hearing from a very satisfied owner of a 212.
My journey to buy a welder started off at the $500 level, and honestly I think I could have been quite satisfied at just a little higher than that. I ended up at the $3000 and change level with a machine that is completely overkill for my current needs, but I'm hoping the added capability will result in my expanding my knowledge so that every welding solution isn't just grab the MIG gun.
My journey to buy a welder started off at the $500 level, and honestly I think I could have been quite satisfied at just a little higher than that. I ended up at the $3000 and change level with a machine that is completely overkill for my current needs, but I'm hoping the added capability will result in my expanding my knowledge so that every welding solution isn't just grab the MIG gun.
sberry
Banned
I like it if I can just grab the mig gun, fine by me. But,,, I think if I am not mistaken that the 212 is a full chassis machine. Its not much a better unit than a 211 cept for it holds a full size spool of wire.
ekimneirbo
Well-known member
Everyone has things they can say about the Miller vs Lincoln comparison. When and if you buy a decent welder, you will discover lots of things that you didn't think about. You may notice the quality of the drive system is better and stronger. You will find that the 212 comes with an actual cart that supports a welding tank and can be easily rolled around the shop. The size of the bottle you use will probably be larger and more cost effective to fill. You can use a full size spool in it which saves you on wire costs. Lots of things to consider but everyone focuses on cost instead.
Personally I am not a fan of multi-purpose machines because they never seem to do all things as well as individual machines. There are often unseen quality differences to keep costs down, Often the welding leads are shorter or smaller. When Tig welding, you may need coolant to cool your torch. If your welder has minimal cables you may have trouble tig welding anything significant. There are just lots of things you notice after you own it. A mig welder will most likely do just about everything you want to weld. You probably will never use a stick welder again. Sometime later if you decide you want to be able to Tig, then buy a decent Tig.
I have pretty well exhausted my desire to try to help you spend your money wisely. My son learned how to use his Miller 212 by asking me questions over the phone then practicing. Mig welding ain't hard if you have a good machine. I know from using my son's machine at his house what a fine machine it is.
So spend your money on whatever you want to spend it on, I'm done.
I wish I had a nickel for every time I've seen someone complain because they convinced themselves that they would never need the ability of a good tool and settled for something else. I'm not talking about something from Harbor Freight to do a one time or occasional job, I'm talking about something you expect to last and use for a lifetime. You will ALWAYS find that later on you want to do bigger things......ALWAYS!
Personally I am not a fan of multi-purpose machines because they never seem to do all things as well as individual machines. There are often unseen quality differences to keep costs down, Often the welding leads are shorter or smaller. When Tig welding, you may need coolant to cool your torch. If your welder has minimal cables you may have trouble tig welding anything significant. There are just lots of things you notice after you own it. A mig welder will most likely do just about everything you want to weld. You probably will never use a stick welder again. Sometime later if you decide you want to be able to Tig, then buy a decent Tig.
I have pretty well exhausted my desire to try to help you spend your money wisely. My son learned how to use his Miller 212 by asking me questions over the phone then practicing. Mig welding ain't hard if you have a good machine. I know from using my son's machine at his house what a fine machine it is.
So spend your money on whatever you want to spend it on, I'm done.
I wish I had a nickel for every time I've seen someone complain because they convinced themselves that they would never need the ability of a good tool and settled for something else. I'm not talking about something from Harbor Freight to do a one time or occasional job, I'm talking about something you expect to last and use for a lifetime. You will ALWAYS find that later on you want to do bigger things......ALWAYS!
Last edited:
MJK
Well-known member
I have a Miller 215. I have no complaints. It wasn't cheap, but I never have wished I got anything else. It has no problem with 10lb spools of wire. My current favorite is INEFIL ER70S-6 030.
IMO if you are on a budget, or trying to see if this is for you then there is no harm in going used/used cheaper as previously mentioned. Hobarts are nice for what they are. If you are like me and will end up upgrading anyways, then just get something good out of the gate if you can.
I'd go gas and good glass good glass right out of the gate if you are starting with MIG.
IMO if you are on a budget, or trying to see if this is for you then there is no harm in going used/used cheaper as previously mentioned. Hobarts are nice for what they are. If you are like me and will end up upgrading anyways, then just get something good out of the gate if you can.
I'd go gas and good glass good glass right out of the gate if you are starting with MIG.
Last edited:
346ci
Banned
I started with and still have a Lincoln Pro Mig 140, works great on thin metal.
For a larger mig, I'd look at the Hobart Ironman.
Which ever you get add the gas bottle in your budget.
For a larger mig, I'd look at the Hobart Ironman.
Which ever you get add the gas bottle in your budget.
jproaster
Well-known member
If you're just learning do what tens of thousands of high school kids did - Get a used Lincoln Tombstone, a bunch of 1/4" plate scraps, and a few bundles of 6013 and 7018. When you get the puddle, sound, and bead down doing beads, change to 90's, and work from there. There's a reason that's what they used to teach the basics...
When you can do 40 ton welds and can sign your name, you would have passed our high school welding block, and could move on to the wire feeds and TIGs.
You need to develop good habits before you get fancy schmancy.
This is what I'm doing...even after picking up a Miller 215 this week.
I did another session practice. Today I fixed my crank holder took which cracked. Filled it in with stick, multiple passes. I really like doing stick. I kind of feel like getting stick/TIG machine and not MIG. I'm going to do another session trying out TIG just to see what it's like and like I said, MIG is very easy for me. I feel like anything can be accomplished with stick, just need to know what you are doing.
Tennessee Cattleman
Well-known member
A stick welder does very well on steel, except thin sheet metal and good stick welders are generally priced lower than comparable mig welders. I have a Miller Maxstar 161S.
ClappedOutBport
Well-known member
- Joined
- Mar 30, 2016
- Messages
- 998
I got a Miller 330A/BP a little while back. I still love mig, especially for quick jobs, but that miller is something else. I have a bit of issue with wanting the best stuff and not compromising, and I don't feel like I am at all with the miller. It could certainly be an only welder. So that may not be the worst choice. But you will be stuck with the two slowest processes.
ClappedOutBport
Well-known member
- Joined
- Mar 30, 2016
- Messages
- 998
Oh yeah. It's 800 lbs. I wasn't really recommending it, although it is a nice machine. I just think one could easily get by without a mig, if you've got patience.
Jazz1
Well-known member
Where do you buy parts for these welders? Those are disposable welders
I would only buy name brand welder with parts availability and that does not come from the machines big box stores sell. Welding stores sell welders whose parts are available.
Aaron_W
Well-known member
You don't buy parts for a $129 welder, like you said disposable.
My basic PPE cost more than that welder.
ekimneirbo
Well-known member
Like I said a long while back.........go ahead and buy a 212 . If it doesn't do everything you ever want to do, you can sell it for 85% of new for several years. Do you notice that you almost never see a used one come up for sale? People who buy them, like them and keep them. Sometimes you just need to accept the fact that you have to step up and pay for a decent product.