Welder outlet wiring

[fire1130man]

Quick question. I currently have a Hobart mig welder (210 MVP) and am currently wiring my newly constructed shop. I am wiring the 220 circuit. I know that it is way overkill to put in a 6/3 wire for my current welder, but I want to make sure that I have wire enough for future toys. Would a 6/3 wire with the 50 amp plug using a 30amp breaker be ok. This should give me the ability to just change the breaker later if I get a larger breaker right? I already have the wire so cost isn't the issue. Just wanted to make sure I am looking at this right. Thanks in advance.

 

[GaleForce]

Assuming the Hobart doesn't exceed 30amps, your set up will be ok.

 

[fire1130man]

Ok. Thanks. The Hobart recommends a 30 amp breaker and has a 24amp input.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[GaleForce]

Yep, that's perfect. The 6/3 is good future planning too.

 

[C96]

Way to think ahead
That's how to do-it

 

[Aceman]

You don't need 3 conductor, only 2, for a welder recep.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Southwire-125-ft-6-2-NM-B-Wire-28894402/202316592

 

[sberry]

Use a 50A breaker, the Hobart is rated to run on a common welder circuit,,, the breaker listed in the manual is for the minimum wire size which is 14, once you go 12 or better can use the 50.

 

[Norcal]

Yep, that's perfect. The 6/3 is good future planning too.

6/3 is good when money is burning a hole in your pocket, & feel the need to squander money, a neutral is not needed, 6/2 w/ ground NM cable is fine.

 

[GaleForce]

6/3 is good when money is burning a hole in your pocket, & feel the need to squander money, a neutral is not needed, 6/2 w/ ground NM cable is fine.

You don't need 3 conductor, only 2, for a welder recep.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Southwire-125-ft-6-2-NM-B-Wire-28894402/202316592

Right, you wouldn't normally use 6/3 to wire this welder up, but the OP mentioned he already owned the wire.

 

[neonnblack]

6/2, 50 amp breaker, nema 50 plug is how my mvp is set up.

 

[fire1130man]

Thanks for the input guys. I do already have the wire from another source. I was going to go ahead and run it so that I could hook up a stove to that circuit if I ever wanted to move some stuff around. I do some powder coating and need the oven. Thanks for the advice.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[sberry]

The 175-210 compact class mig actually have a cord better than it needs to run the unit. I was going to look at an IM230, it may have a different cord but I think everything else 240 Hobart makes uses the same one.

The manual is written for an electrician. I am all for economy but this is a poor place to be frugal. The mfg has intentionally provided the extra cord to meet a code criteria allowing it to use general welding circuits at 50A,, with a factory plug. The owners manual suggests/lists a 30 which is confusing unless you know otherwise.

 

[sberry]

There is no time like the present to use wire you got.

 

[fire1130man]

So I guess my main question is is should I use the 50 amp breaker or a 30 amp. I know that the 6 gauge wire will hold 50 amps, but if something goes wrong with the welder I would want the breaker to trip. I could always change out the breaker when and if I got a bigger welder. Am I thinking of this right or should I go ahead and do the 50 and run it like you would any other circuit? Sorry for the ignorance, just trying to cover all my angles.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[sberry]

This is what I was getting at. You might as well use a 50A breaker. You already wired for it and they designed the machine to do it. What the breaker does,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, in this case,,, its an off on switch to the circuit,,, it provides fault protection to the building wire which is several x as large as cord on machine,,, it limits the fault current between the plug and the machine. The cord is larger than the machine needs,,, this is what provides the thermal protection for the wire, it only can draw so much,,, it, a 12 wire will never overload the 6 in the building circuit.
The breaker does not really provide any thermal protection to this type of circuit,, this is generalizing and a ******** session so not intended to be 100% but get the idea.
Same as a motor, the limits of the applied load protects the wire, if its in an appliance any wiring downstream past the cord must be protected if it isn't large enough to handle a fault connected to a proper circuit.
Actually in the name of overkill and depending on the need for spaces or saving wire runs could for the price of 30$ or so put a panel on the wire.

 

[sberry]

Part of this is what the argument with 2 many duisappeared projects was about. Bull had an issue with a pierce of equipment that worked for 4 yrs and now we decide as a shotgun trouble shooting approach the need to re wire it with cord a couple sizes heavier.
A piece of old equipment like a shop heater didn't have any secondary protection but for thermal on the motor. The whole unit would have ran on 100 ft of 18 wire
Its wired to code for the circuit its allowed to be plugged in to,,, not by the actual demands. They didn't want to have to add a layer of fussy fuse after the switch. Lots of 240 equipment is wired like that, where it comes designed to run on 30A circuit, all the controls are in 14 ga wire.
I built a couple coolers, I solved some issues by running the cord in to 20 A ocpd. They could run all the controls with old 16 cord and allowed me to plug in to 50A

 

[sberry]

Your welder has its own thermal to protect its internals. Using a 50 makes it a real deal,,,, you could plug 2 similar welders in to it, plug in machines with higher demands like buzz box and oven type loads.

Not only are you golden with the 6 but you could actually use the 50A breaker to a 12 wire for this machine and most fak pak cord and plug provided units cept for the 250A feeders. But a 210, comes with 12 cord, wont burn up a 12 wire.

Some comparisons in modern and old Christmas lights demonstrate many of the principles built in to circuit protection. They assume some dipstick wont attach it to a circuit larger than its plug design allows.

There may be 120 circuits above 20A but they are not designed for general cord and plugged equipment accesable to the end user.

 

[sberry]

I boogered a lot ofrf stuff over the years but like it all best if it comes from MFG with cord or simple install like a ready made air comp. I can say from experience and some math there has to be millions of small 5 hp connected to 10/30 circuits. I never see one burn a place down or shock anyone provided it and the service was grounded.

I went to a shop a while back, the man is smart natural mechanic but someone still hasn't insured he understands the concept yet. Had an uncleared fault. He fixed the faulty equipment but something is missing,,, all steel benches, 3 wire grounded drill press sitting on one, daisy chained from bench to bench.

 

[GirlnAgarage]

If you're building from scratch, use the 50a breaker approach. Don't cut corners from the beginning what can/might/will/Murphy's Law you later.

You now how many folks wish they were in your shoes so they could build the setup they want from the very beginning? Go with the 50a breaker

 

[Shortbuscandid8]

I'm getting ready to do the same thing, with the same logic..wiring for future upgrade. I'm in Washington State which is under the 2008 code, so maybe they've changed this, or maybe I'm reading it wrong and one of you electrical black belts can help me understand the following?

Article 630.12 (A) states: "Each welder shall have overcurrent protection rated or set at not more than 200 percent of I1max. Alternatively, if the I1max is not given, the overcurrent protection shall be rated or set at not more than 200 percent of the rated primary current of the welder."

The OP's Hobart rated primary current is 24amps. 2*24amps = 48 amps. Does the 50 amp breaker (being greater than 200% of 24amps) violate 630.12(A)?

I1Max is defined in the FPN following 630.12(B) using some mathematical formula that whose formatting this board software doesn't like, so I didn't post here. It also sounds like it's a nameplate rating in some instances. I don't have my welder yet, but I want to be flexible when I do have one.

Thanks in advance,
Y

 

[sberry]

I have read that and at one time put some of the math together but its been a long time and I never did know it very well. I wouldn't mind a clear explanation too but,,, the machine is legal for 50A welder circuits. They up the cord size just so it would. (it will run at rated output on 14 wire) You must lower the breaker if you do though.
If you supply a machine with 60 got to go to 10 cord.

 

[sberry]

The ideal thing is to be able to wire as needed. I got a couple home ports for 210 class machines and have 10 wire 30A. Each sub panel in my building has a 50A welder outlet, will run any welder I want and at the main have a couple more 50A for home ports for machines and one 10/50, got about 2 ft of wire for my plasma.

The cord got damaged, you can see the big ole flying splice on the end. I am going to get a new piece, about 15 ft would be ideal. I have an outlet on the same wire as the hoist, that one on the right is the go 2 unit for auto work. Its home was a little different for years but recently cleaned up a little mess and move it to make it so I don't need to add cord to reach open floor space. The original home was good for storage but I had to do a little plug in, now worked my way out of most of it.