Welder Question

[Pen & Wrench]

Hi, I have an old Forney 180 Amp AC welder. It works, but I can only get it to run 6011 and 6013, and it doesn't like starting an arc until it gets the rod warmed up pretty good. There is an old Powerkraft, (Montgomery Ward) made by Century, a 230 AC and 180 DC welder, on an auction, might get it bought for around $100. It would seem to be an upgrade for me, or should I go a bit more current and get a newer welder? I just retired and plan to have more welding projects than I have in the past. A multi-process welder seems like a good choice, unless it is kind of good at everything and not very good at anything. I want to eventually be able to weld thinner metals than I can with a stick welder. I'm looking forward to the wisdom of the group. Thanks.

 

[txvwnut]

You could step up to a tig/stick unit, that way you can run all the arc rod you want for your heavy jobs and switch to tig for the smaller stuff. Or if you don’t think you need a tig rig get a good quality 220v mig unit.

 

[nadogail]

If you get AC/DC welder you will find you will be able to use greater variety of electrodes.

 

[John in OH]

The 180 AC welders were created in the early 1950s to address the needs of farmers served by REA power lines. At that time, the REA limited power draw to 39 amp at 240 vac. A transformer-type welder drawing 39 amps on the primary will produce a maximum of 180 amps on the welding secondary; hence, the 180 amp welders.

You are correct, these machines (regardless of manufacturer) are pretty much limited to 6011 and 6013 rods due to the machine’s low arc voltage. Even though other rods such as 7018 claim to be functional on AC welders, the low arc voltage of a 180 machine typically prohibits their use.

The 180 AC machines were the backbone of rural welding for several decades and you can do a LOT with 6011 and 6013 rods. We used a Forney 180 machine from the late 1950s for nearly 50 years before upgrading to a Lincoln Idealarc AC/DC machine.

All that being said, if the AC/DC PowerKraft machine works, it’s probably well worth $100 to go to AC/DC; however, don’t expect to be able to weld light gauge metal with any stick welder. If you plan to weld lighter gauge materials, consider going to MIG.

Regarding the Forney’s difficulty in starting an arc …. IIRC, the Forney has a capacitor or two inside that aid in striking an arc. If one of those capacitors has failed that may be causing your arc starting problems. Replacing capacitors should be a simple and relatively inexpensive task.

 

[TractorJeff]

The 180 AC welders were created in the early 1950s to address the needs of farmers served by REA power lines. At that time, the REA limited power draw to 39 amp at 240 vac. A transformer-type welder drawing 39 amps on the primary will produce a maximum of 180 amps on the welding secondary; hence, the 180 amp welders.

You are correct, these machines (regardless of manufacturer) are pretty much limited to 6011 and 6013 rods due to the machine’s low arc voltage. Even though other rods such as 7018 claim to be functional on AC welders, the low arc voltage of a 180 machine typically prohibits their use.

The 180 AC machines were the backbone of rural welding for several decades and you can do a LOT with 6011 and 6013 rods. We used a Forney 180 machine from the late 1950s for nearly 50 years before upgrading to a Lincoln Idealarc AC/DC machine.

All that being said, if the AC/DC PowerKraft machine works, it’s probably well worth $100 to go to AC/DC; however, don’t expect to be able to weld light gauge metal with any stick welder. If you plan to weld lighter gauge materials, consider going to MIG.

Regarding the Forney’s difficulty in starting an arc …. IIRC, the Forney has a capacitor or two inside that aid in striking an arc. If one of those capacitors has failed that may be causing your arc starting problems. Replacing capacitors should be a simple and relatively inexpensive task.

7014 works also!
There is a 7018 DC/AC rod also that works on newer machines. My neighbor has some that he has used a little.
They make thin rod to weld "SOME" sheet metal but you need to be really good before attempting to use it.

 

[firebirdparts]

Buzzbox welders are very very cheap now, new ones, but a multi-process would certainly address the thinner metal. I use a mig for everything. It's handy.

 

[yatg]

There is an old Powerkraft, (Montgomery Ward) made by Century, a 230 AC and 180 DC welder, on an auction, might get it bought for around $100.

Just picked one up for $50 and a four hour round trip drive, but no leads. Model number was 110-086. Once its working am hoping to strip out the DC circuit and put it in my Lincoln AC.

 

[metlmunchr]

I've got a 250/250 AC-DC Century I bought at Wards about 40 years ago. It has made hundreds of welds on Sch 40 pipe in renovations of existing buildings where the alternative was to park a gas or diesel welder outside and drag 300ft or more of leads thru the building.

Pipe is typically welded with a 1/8" 6010 root pass and either 1/8" 6010 or 3/32" 7018 for the cover pass. The amperage is low enough that you're down in the 100% duty cycle range, and that little welder has performed flawlessly whenever it's been used for pipe welding or other stick welding in general.

 

[Sumboodie]

I've got a 250/250 AC-DC Century I bought at Wards about 40 years ago. It has made hundreds of welds on Sch 40 pipe in renovations of existing buildings where the alternative was to park a gas or diesel welder outside and drag 300ft or more of leads thru the building.

Pipe is typically welded with a 1/8" 6010 root pass and either 1/8" 6010 or 3/32" 7018 for the cover pass. The amperage is low enough that you're down in the 100% duty cycle range, and that little welder has performed flawlessly whenever it's been used for pipe welding or other stick welding in general.

All the pipe welders around here seem to use 7018 exclusively.

 

[nadogail]

Hi, I have an old Forney 180 Amp AC welder. It works, but I can only get it to run 6011 and 6013, and it doesn't like starting an arc until it gets the rod warmed up pretty good. There is an old Powerkraft, (Montgomery Ward) made by Century, a 230 AC and 180 DC welder, on an auction, might get it bought for around $100. It would seem to be an upgrade for me, or should I go a bit more current and get a newer welder? I just retired and plan to have more welding projects than I have in the past. A multi-process welder seems like a good choice, unless it is kind of good at everything and not very good at anything. I want to eventually be able to weld thinner metals than I can with a stick welder. I'm looking forward to the wisdom of the group. Thanks.

7014 will also run well on AC.

 

[3rdgendslmech]

I've got a Miller Bobcat 250 that I got on a trade and it'll take care of just about any medium to heavy equipment repair shy of deep arc gouging. The downside is it's noisy!
Also had a Cornwell 140A mig welder. A year ago my friend needed me to do some repairs on a few skid steer buckets of his. Not having a lot of time in the afternoon and a 140 amp welder mig gun wasnt gonna cut it I upped my game.
I bought a Hobart 210 MVP. For the price, for me it was pretty hard to beat considering what you're getting. I welded a 1/4" bottom and a few 3/8" wear strips no problem.
A few weeks ago I toyed around with some old 20 gauge shelf metal. I put the dual voltage adapter on and went off of the recommended settings and I was really impressed with how well it did.

 

[John in OH]

All the pipe welders around here seem to use 7018 exclusively.

All of the qualified SMAW carbon steel welding procedures that we used at our fossil generating stations for ASME Section 1, Section VIII, and Power Piping ALL required a 6010 root pass before a 7018 (or similar fill). 7018 alone was a major no-no due to insufficient root penetration.

 

[dr_clyde]

All the pipe welders around here seem to use 7018 exclusively.

Not for a open root joint they're not. 7018 is not designed for open root welding. If there is a backer ring or something then yeah, no reason for 6010.


If they're tigging in the root and then laying in the fill and cap with 7018, that's pretty common. But the root and hot pass are almost always done with a cellulose fluxed rod, most commonly 6010.

 

[Pen & Wrench]

Thanks for all the advice. I ended up buying the welder on the auction. I repaired my trailer ramp. I call it a poor design, where they laid the mesh on top of the ramp frame, but actually put the ends on the under side of the ramp, and my Grasshopper mower has broken the mesh off the underside of the ramp over the years. Well, I welded the mesh back up for my trial of the "new" welder. The mesh is pretty thin but it welded up well enough. it appears it will work for what I do, other than I see a Mig or Tig welder in my future for thinner materials.

 

[JonP]

Bringing this thread back to life lol. I just picked up the same welder for $50 at a yard sale. I need to upgrade my 220 in my garage to a 6-50R. I have an open 30 and 50 breaker, can someone advise on what breaker I need for this dinosaur. Thank you

 

[mike93lx]

Bringing this thread back to life lol. I just picked up the same welder for $50 at a yard sale. I need to upgrade my 220 in my garage to a 6-50R. I have an open 30 and 50 breaker, can someone advise on what breaker I need for this dinosaur. Thank you

I'd use the 50 and #10 wire. In the US, we can adjust wire sizing based on welder duty cycle and #10 easily covers most of the welders used at home. You can always go larger, though

 

[Stick-man]

They do make a 7018AC rod that has stabilizers for running on AC.

I know you already bought the welder, but keep an eye out for a Lincoln tombstone, the Idealarc 250. I have purchased four, one @ $50, two around $100, and one for $250. They are incredible welders, with a fantastic arc, and will literally handle just about any welding job you can come across, with the exception of heavy gouging.

 

[Jackfre]

All of the qualified SMAW carbon steel welding procedures that we used at our fossil generating stations for ASME Section 1, Section VIII, and Power Piping ALL required a 6010 root pass before a 7018 (or similar fill). 7018 alone was a major no-no due to insufficient root penetration.

That’s what I always ran on powerhouses. Even with a chill ring we used the 6010 root pass.

 

[Jackfre]

Multi-process sounds like a good idea, BUT, really how good are you at those processes? I ask because I did something of this nature when I decided to get back into tig. There was a time I could make about any test anywhere. I was “slick” as it was called. Then I took 20+ yrs off. Rampant enthusiasm led me to buy a Synchrowave 180 which ave me tig and stick. The stick was ok, but, man, doing the tig was a very humbling experience. I wish you the best if you go that way, but it takes a lot of work and a lot of practice to become proficient. I had a business to run and kids and knew I couldn’t dedicate the time to achieve a level I could accept, and then keep it there. I ended up getting a non-inverter Miller 211 MiG rig. It has been excellent for my mild steel work. A spool gun will give you AL if you want that. You may think you will have a lot of time being retired. Myself, I find that being retired I don’t have time for a lot of the things I want to do. Good luck and enjoy your time.

 

[bb29510]

the monky ward machine is a good machine, the family have had one since 1976 and it still works perfect

 

[JonP]

I'd use the 50 and #10 wire. In the US, we can adjust wire sizing based on welder duty cycle and #10 easily covers most of the welders used at home. You can always go larger, though

Thank you. I was wobbling about not needing to use its higher capacity.

 

[mike93lx]

Thank you. I was wobbling about not needing to use its higher capacity.

You can run it turned all the way up. The wire won't hold it back

 

[bb29510]

the bigger wire will let you get farther away from the circuit breaker so go as big as you can afford and get a extention cord out of it, that way you can weld in the drive way

 

[mike93lx]

the bigger wire will let you get farther away from the circuit breaker so go as big as you can afford and get a extention cord out of it, that way you can weld in the drive way

The good 'ol Garage Journal store of "WhatIfs". It'll cost you more than any tool truck

 

[bb29510]

you can change a straight ac machine to dc with handful of parts, you tube

 

[Pen & Wrench]

Update on my situation. I did buy the PowerKraft AC/DC welder and it has worked perfectly. Last summer I needed to weld some thinner metal, and I ended up buying a new Lincoln 211i Mig welder and it did what I was needing it to do. I can't believe how easy the Mig is to run, and if you are mindful of the settings (the Lincoln suggests where to start), it seems to weld a pretty solid weld. I was concerned that it is too easy to just lay down metal with the Mig, and not get a good penetrating weld, but if I pay attention, I have made some very strong Mig welds, and I find myself reaching for the Mig much more than the stick. I may never move to Tig welding, as it appears the Mig and the stick pretty much cover all the type of welding I am likely to do. I doubt I will fire up the Forney any time soon, and I am hoping to sell it so I can quit storing it.

 

[John in OH]

If the machine you bought is the 230AC/180DC welding secondary with 240v primary, then you need to go with the 50amp breaker. Will a 30a breaker work?? Maybe ... if you keep your welding currents low, but the "proper" breaker will be the 50a. And if you use a 50a breaker you should go with a wiring gauge that will support 50a, so that is (without looking it up) probably #6. The US Electric Code exists for a reason ... why risk house, garage, or health trying to get by with undersized wiring???

 

[John in OH]

Update on my situation. I did buy the PowerKraft AC/DC welder and it has worked perfectly. Last summer I needed to weld some thinner metal, and I ended up buying a new Lincoln 211i Mig welder and it did what I was needing it to do. I can't believe how easy the Mig is to run, and if you are mindful of the settings (the Lincoln suggests where to start), it seems to weld a pretty solid weld. I was concerned that it is too easy to just lay down metal with the Mig, and not get a good penetrating weld, but if I pay attention, I have made some very strong Mig welds, and I find myself reaching for the Mig much more than the stick. I may never move to Tig welding, as it appears the Mig and the stick pretty much cover all the type of welding I am likely to do. I doubt I will fire up the Forney any time soon, and I am hoping to sell it so I can quit storing it.

You pretty much nailed the potential problem with MIG. It's really easy to get very nice looking weld beads that look great but have little or insufficient penetration. And I personally have difficulty judging how much penetration I'm actually getting when welding with MIG.

I'm an old guy with old school habits, so generally when I'm welding anything over 1/8" thick I go with multi-passes of stick.

 

[Bert_]

If the machine you bought is the 230AC/180DC welding secondary with 240v primary, then you need to go with the 50amp breaker. Will a 30a breaker work?? Maybe ... if you keep your welding currents low, but the "proper" breaker will be the 50a. And if you use a 50a breaker you should go with a wiring gauge that will support 50a, so that is (without looking it up) probably #6. The US Electric Code exists for a reason ... why risk house, garage, or health trying to get by with undersized wiring???

The US electrical code specifically allows a 50A breaker with #10 or even #12 wire for many welding circuits.

 

[cowades206]

If the machine you bought is the 230AC/180DC welding secondary with 240v primary, then you need to go with the 50amp breaker. Will a 30a breaker work?? Maybe ... if you keep your welding currents low, but the "proper" breaker will be the 50a. And if you use a 50a breaker you should go with a wiring gauge that will support 50a, so that is (without looking it up) probably #6. The US Electric Code exists for a reason ... why risk house, garage, or health trying to get by with undersized wiring???

I had a 50 amp socket connected to a 30 amp breaker. I never welded super heavy so I never tripped it. I did continually trip a 20 amp though. If you are using the welder at the lower end of its range you don't need the whole 50 amps. The wire was correct for 30 amps so the breaker met code for the wires, but not the socket. Couldn't burn anything down that way.

 

[mike93lx]

The US Electric Code exists for a reason .

The irony...

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