Welding a Century-Old Air Compressor Tank...?

[MDchanic]

Got your attention.

Having just completed reading through this Epic of the Interwebs, I come here to ask this question of anyone who actually knows something about this (and not from the rest of youse):

I have a 1928 US Air Compressor Co Model HA 2-stage compressor that I picked up in the fall, just as it was getting cold (see here and later posts). Pump and motor were in good shape, valves needed cleaning, after taking it apart, it needed new gaskets. There was no way to pressure test it when the temperatures were below freezing, but they've begun to warm up now, so I just pressure tested it today, and got this:

This leak is along the riveted seam of a brazed steel tank that is nearly a hundred years old. The tank itself has a few features that make it specific to this configuration, rather than generic, so it's not a simple drop-in for a replacement.
Modern tanks are not made in the 14" x 48" size of this tank. Used contemporary tanks will be (Duh.) a hundred years old.

So, the thought of having it fixed arises.
(Notice I said "having it fixed." I can weld. On a good day. But I would not try to weld this.)

The question (if anyone knows): Would anyone do this?
This is not a thirty year old arc-welded steel tank. It's a whole different beast, more like a steam locomotive boiler.
Would any of you professional welders weld something like this?
Or is it out of the question?
Or does it just need to be brazed in some special way?

And, of course, Does anyone out there have a sound 14" x 48" tank he'd like to sell?

Thanks,

- Eric

 

[wrenchguy]

There is prolly is someone taking your money and burp some weld on it, but will not guarantee it for 1 second nor will he give you his real name. It looks brazed but i seem to remember a different term used.
It's a static display! I know of several around here.

I have a smaller 1 like that i test at 150psi twice a year, it's set to pop off at 50psi.

 

[MDchanic]

I shut the pressure off to this one at 250psi and noticed the gauge dropping, so walked around and saw the leak. I have no idea what pressure it started leaking at.

As for being brazed, I'm just quoting the tag on the side of the tank:

"INSURED BRAZED TANK"

I assume that a qualified tank welder would know whether this type of failure on this type of tank is repairable or not, but I have no idea myself.

- Eric

 

[nadogail]

Your local Welding Gas suppler probably can recommend an inspection and hydro testing facility.

Let them, the hydro tester, recommend a welding shop they are confident in working with.

I can’t afford to pay for enough insurance to cover work like you seem to have in mind.

 

[MDchanic]

I can’t afford to pay for enough insurance to cover work like you seem to have in mind.

Ultimately, that was my feeling on the subject: I probably wouldn't be able to find anyone to do it because the potential for failure was too great and the image of answering the question in court, "So, you thought it was a good idea to repair a tank that was almost a hundred years old?" would immediately pop into their head, just before I heard a "Click" on the other end of the phone line.

But I had to ask, because, Hey, you never know.

- Eric

 

[ZRX61]

What ya could do is this:
Find a 12x36 tank, cut open your old tank, put the new tank inside it & weld up the old tank.
You'll need to figure out a way to charge to old tank via plumbing that makes it look like the old tank is actually being used, also rig the drain etc. It's not that difficult & has the added benefit of putting the fear of christ into people who aren't in on the trick.
If the new tank is resting on the bottom of the old tank the drain is the easy part. With a 12x36 tank you'd have up to 1ft at the end & a couple of inches clearance at the top to hide what you did.
Post pic of the entire thing, plus pics of the fittings.

 

[walta]

I got to ask are you willing to risk the lives of everyone that comes near this machine for how cool looks?

What is your budget for this repair?

If you want a safe tank you need all repairs done by pros certified to weld on pressure vessels. My guess is if you find someone willing to work on this tank it will not be cheap.


Does your tank have a bolt on end cap? If so maybe you could hide a smaller modern inside of the old tank.

Walta

 

[LXCam]

This was 15lbs on new metal.



I like ZRXs suggestion of welding up a fresh tank inside the old one.

 

[gorilla]

You will have no luck getting anyone to weld up a 100 year old rusty tank. You may find a shop that will build you a new tank. I would start with two 14" weld pipe caps and a rolled tank or a piece of 14" pipe. Add whatever fittings and brackets you need have it hydro tested and your good to go.

 

[MDchanic]

This was 15lbs on new metal.

Someone made a square tank out of sheet metal?

There's a reason why tanks are round: Fewer points where stress is concentrated.

- Eric

 

[MDchanic]

I got to ask are you willing to risk the lives of everyone that comes near this machine for how cool looks?

I got to ask did you read my post?

(Notice I said "having it fixed." I can weld. On a good day. But I would not try to weld this.)

- Eric

 

[MDchanic]

What ya could do is this:
Find a 12x36 tank, cut open your old tank, put the new tank inside it & weld up the old tank.

An interesting idea, but probably more work than I want to make for myself, considering all the other real work I have to do.
But interesting...

- Eric

 

[niget2002]

Turn it into a smoker and get a tank without a hole in it.

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[41plym]

I owned a welding business for 25 years. I can't count the number of guy's that would come in with "I got this compressor for free, can you fix this rusted tank" NOPE. Most ended up in my scrap pile, others knew a guy that would fix it for them.

 

[Glemon]

I would worry more about the next area to fail, assume some could fix the leaking area. I am not an expert on tanks, but know a little about rust, if it has rusted to failure at one point it most likely has a lot more rust on the inside you can't see.

 

[LXCam]

Someone made a square tank out of sheet metal?

There's a reason why tanks are round: Fewer points where stress is concentrated.

- Eric

Agreed. This was a coolant tank for a super charger. Point being it doesn’t take much pressure to go boom at a compromised point.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

Even if it is deemed repairable, when you're done with proper repairs, hydro and recertification, you'll have spent more than than a new receiver costs.

Tommy

 

[oldmachinenut]

Leave the pump and motor on the old tank, not connected and remotely mount a new receiver plumbed into your air system.

 

[brownbagg]

Even if it is deemed repairable, when you're done with proper repairs, hydro and recertification, you'll have spent more than than a new receiver costs.

Tommy

make a bbq out of it

 

[lis2323]

I think you are wasting your money repairing a tank that old. There will be way more corrosion that what is evident.

Not worth the risk or dollars. JMHO of course [emoji16]


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[BigGarage]

You will have no luck getting anyone to weld up a 100 year old rusty tank.

Hey, it's only 93 years old.

Dennis

 

[John in OH]

It would be cool if you could post a few pics of the entire compressor/motor/tank assembly. I'm not grasping why you couldn't easily use a new tank even if it were a smaller diameter or length.

Regarding repair, before I retired I held a National Board inspector's certificate and there is NO WAY a simple "repair" of this vessel would be acceptable. To get a tank in this condition back into acceptable service would take more testing, work, and money than any rational human could justify spending.

Figure out a way to repipe the compressor to a new receiver tank and turn this one into a yard ornament or feed trough.

 

[MDchanic]

It would be cool if you could post a few pics of the entire compressor/motor/tank assembly.

I linked to the photos in the OP of this thread:

I have a 1928 US Air Compressor Co Model HA 2-stage compressor that I picked up in the fall, just as it was getting cold (see here and later posts).

(Please let me know if the link isn't working for you).

... I held a National Board inspector's certificate and there is NO WAY a simple "repair" of this vessel would be acceptable.

I believe you win the award for being the first qualified person to answer my question (with the exception of 41Plym, who has different qualifications).
Thank you.

- Eric

 

[The Cobbler]

Leave the pump and motor on the old tank, not connected and remotely mount a new receiver plumbed into your air system.

this is what I would do if I wanted it for posterity . do a cosmetic refurb on the tank, make it look like it's supposed to with plumbing, but not actually pressurized. have another remote tank doing the work. With a little bit of thought & ingenuity, it could be made so it looked real

 

[niget2002]

I believe you win the award for being the first qualified person to answer my question (with the exception of 41Plym, who has different qualifications).
Thank you.

- Eric

So... don't bother trying to help MDchanic anymore... noted.

 

[MDchanic]

So... don't bother trying to help MDchanic anymore... noted.

I'm sorry. At the beginning of my first post I wrote:

... I come here to ask this question of anyone who actually knows something about this (and not from the rest of youse)

I have read other threads on this subject, and I knew that the peanut gallery would come out one by one, each to provide me with his infinitely valuable personal opinion, based on what he read on the internet, or what his buddy told him, or what "just makes sense" to him.

I knew that there would be a percentage of people who would say, "It's not worth your life," a percentage who would say, "It's not worth the legal liability," a percentage who would say, "It must comply with laws that may or may not actually exist," and a percentage that would helpfully suggest using it as either a barbeque or a smoker. I was not interested in that input, as I could have just conjured it in my mind without bothering to go over to my computer and type.
A couple of people suggested installing a smaller tank inside the existing tank, which is actually a pretty ingenious idea, but more work than I want to make for myself when I can just plumb the pump into my air system and have it use to tank of my other compressor, if I decide I want to bother.

I was interested, as I said in my post, in the opinions of people who have actually done this before, or had it done, or been trained to do it. Specifically, I was interested in whether any of these people knew anything that applied to tanks made with the older "braze and rivet" technology, which, as far as I know, may be easier to repair if they develop seam leaks (I know they used to repair them in the 1800s, but that experience may be why people don't repair them anymore).

I knew that my question would receive answers from people who had no actual experience with this, and I accepted those answers politely, though, as I say, they were predictable. I also received two answers from people with actual experience in the area: One welding shop owner, and one tank inspector. This is what I was looking for, it helped me to decide I won't bother wasting time trying to get it fixed, and that I will pursue other avenues (such as having a custom tank made - I'll be checking into prices soon).

So, thank you for answering my carefully composed, and very specific question with "Turn it into a smoker and get a tank without a hole in it."
I'm sure I'll survive somehow without your prodigious assistance.

- Eric

 

[gorilla]

Should I have stated my qualifications before I posted my reply to your question? If you need to know I've been in the metal fabrication business for 40+ years and early in my career I worked at Mare Island shipyard welding submarine hulls. Sorry i wasted your time.

 

[niget2002]

Should I have stated my qualifications before I posted my reply to your question? If you need to know I've been in the metal fabrication business for 40+ years and early in my career I worked at Mare Island shipyard welding submarine hulls. Sorry i wasted your time.

I'll admit. I have no qualifications.

I just recently rebuilt an air compressor using a used tank where I asked a similar question and got similar answers. Those answers led me to have my tank pressure tested. Based on those answers, I inferred that a tank that needs to be welded is better used for other purposes.

But hey, learning from others doesn't make me qualified.

 

[kwb]

I'm sorry. At the beginning of my first post I wrote:


I have read other threads on this subject, and I knew that the peanut gallery would come out one by one, each to provide me with his infinitely valuable personal opinion, based on what he read on the internet, or what his buddy told him, or what "just makes sense" to him.

I knew that there would be a percentage of people who would say, "It's not worth your life," a percentage who would say, "It's not worth the legal liability," a percentage who would say, "It must comply with laws that may or may not actually exist," and a percentage that would helpfully suggest using it as either a barbeque or a smoker. I was not interested in that input, as I could have just conjured it in my mind without bothering to go over to my computer and type.
A couple of people suggested installing a smaller tank inside the existing tank, which is actually a pretty ingenious idea, but more work than I want to make for myself when I can just plumb the pump into my air system and have it use to tank of my other compressor, if I decide I want to bother.

I was interested, as I said in my post, in the opinions of people who have actually done this before, or had it done, or been trained to do it. Specifically, I was interested in whether any of these people knew anything that applied to tanks made with the older "braze and rivet" technology, which, as far as I know, may be easier to repair if they develop seam leaks (I know they used to repair them in the 1800s, but that experience may be why people don't repair them anymore).

I knew that my question would receive answers from people who had no actual experience with this, and I accepted those answers politely, though, as I say, they were predictable. I also received two answers from people with actual experience in the area: One welding shop owner, and one tank inspector. This is what I was looking for, it helped me to decide I won't bother wasting time trying to get it fixed, and that I will pursue other avenues (such as having a custom tank made - I'll be checking into prices soon).

So, thank you for answering my carefully composed, and very specific question with "Turn it into a smoker and get a tank without a hole in it."
I'm sure I'll survive somehow without your prodigious assistance.

- Eric

To the OP - I hope you do to that last point. I get the "cool" old thing ethos, but it would be far cooler repurposed and safe than the adrenaline rush from not knowing if today is the day it decides it is done when you turn on the compressor. If all the advice here hasn't sank in (even though only a couple of people have credentials you deem worthy) then go have it x-rayed, welded, another round of x-rays of the repairs, and hydro'd. The 1800's were the reason for creation of ASME in 1880 and pressure vessel standards is where they started. So over the past 141yrs some of the engineering geek speak has bled out into popular culture and people that work around these things are safe because of the guidelines that have been established over time. So when you are told to make a smoker or BBQ it isn't coming from nowhere. Your ignorance of pressure vessels and risks are showing. There is a reason this isn't done, it is because it isn't economically viable to repair small pressure vessels like this.

I have a very similar tank - It is riveted and brazed. It wasn't even leaking and today it stands upright with a 5" stack and tack welded to a large brake drum and serves as an outdoor fire pit. I was kind of impressed on the condition inside the tank. I don't know how many years it was in use or sitting around of its life but I know the last 30 or so before it was mine it was outside in a shed at my grandfathers place and saw some use but not daily. All the date and MFG info hand punched into the ~1/4 thick material.

I have another that if I would ever get around to cleaning out my house garage that is about 3/8" plate the end domes are inverted and you can see the pin punch marks they used to layout for flame cutting the plate prior to rolling. I don't know the dates on that one but it probably becomes a BBQ since I don't think my wife would go for it as a coffee table.

 

[oldmachinenut]

This is the plate on my 1947 60 gallon Quincy 310 roc14. I have owned it since 1981 used daily. It is also a brazed tank, no rivets though.

 

[Glemon]

Redacted

 

[greg13]

That almost looks like a large tractor trailer air tank, may be an easy swap.

 

[MDchanic]

Should I have stated my qualifications before I posted my reply to your question?

It would have helped. I have no way to sort out the experienced from the creative.

You didn't waste my time. Your response was reasonable, though I'm probably not going to have a tank made (I'll probably just route the output to the air system and use the tank on the "big" compressor, if I bother).

But I will reconsider your suggestion in light of the fact that you are experienced in this area.

You may not be in the habit of making suggestions based on zero experience of knowledge, but that would put you in the minority of message board posters.

Thank you for taking the time and trouble to post.

- Eric

 

[MDchanic]

This is the plate on my 1947 60 gallon Quincy 310 roc14. I have owned it since 1981 used daily. It is also a brazed tank, no rivets though.

Exactly. It was well built, has been properly maintained, and still works fine.

My question was specifically about repairing a very old construction technique, which I thought could be fixable while more modern ones are not, but I can see that the universal response is that it is not, and also that nobody has had specific experience with this exact type of tank, which to me means I'd also have a really hard time finding anybody out in the "real world" who's seen one, so I'll leave it and find a different solution.

Thanks for posting!

- Eric

 

[Jim greengo]

I linked to the photos in the OP of this thread:


(Please let me know if the link isn't working for you).

I believe you win the award for being the first qualified person to answer my question (with the exception of 41Plym, who has different qualifications).
Thank you.

- Eric

That would be a cool display piece just as it sits.

 

[oldmachinenut]

Exactly. It was well built, has been properly maintained, and still works fine.

My question was specifically about repairing a very old construction technique, which I thought could be fixable while more modern ones are not, but I can see that the universal response is that it is not, and also that nobody has had specific experience with this exact type of tank, which to me means I'd also have a really hard time finding anybody out in the "real world" who's seen one, so I'll leave it and find a different solution.

Thanks for posting!

- Eric

In all the years owning this compressor I only ever get clear sometimes whitish water out of the drain. There has never been any orange or brown color in the drained water. Maybe it will last another 74 years, it is a Gilbarco compressor.

 

[MDchanic]

That would be a cool display piece just as it sits.

Well, yeah, but even cooler if I can flip the switch and it turns on.

I did some checking, and it looks like I can have a fairly exact replacement tank custom made for about a grand. Considering I paid $200 for the compressor, paying five times more for the tank seems a bit steep, so for now I'll keep an eye open for a used one (somebody's got one of these with a frozen pump and a bad motor somewhere).
On the other hand, one of these in over-restored condition seems to have sold on eBay for $10,000, so maybe one day I'll spring for a new tank.

I'd hoped that the tank would be good, because it's just so damn cool when it ticks over at 500 RPM, but, hey, what can ya do?

I'm still slowly assembling my barn, so I'll be working out a place for it to sit where it can be seen.

Thanks,

- Eric

 

[ttpete]

When a gas is compressed, energy is stored in it. It's the energy required to compress it. The same is true of steam. It's like compressing a large spring. And that's why it's carefully regulated. Testing's done with water, and that is in the form of hydraulics because the water's not very compressible.

Steam is the worst, especially if it's superheated. The ship I served in used 600 PSI steam at 750 degrees F superheat. A leak of that could cut you in two, so leaks were found using a broom. When the bristles were cut off, you found your leak. Later ships used 1200 PSI steam at 1000 degrees F, and every weld was X-ray inspected on those.

 

[LS6 Tommy]

To be fair, you didn't ask for responses from "Qualified" people, only "anyone who actually knows something about this (and not from the rest of youse)". Most of the responses came from people who knew more than enough about it to give sound advice, even without being "Qualified".


Tommy

 

[BD1]

The shop I worked for did ASME work. Many of us are ASME and pipe welding Certified.
You couldn't pay my boss enough to put our ASME stamp on it. I don't think his insurance company would like it.
We could make a new one, no problem, and be ASME stamped.
Good luck.


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