Welding brackets on rear axle tips?

[BassProCamaro97]

Anyone have any tips tricks or proper procedure for welding spring/shock brackets on a rear differential? I have a set of wrap around brackets for 3" axle tube and obviously don't want to warp the tubes.

Any advice would be great thanks,

~Jim~

 

[mike93lx]

Know your limits. Failure on a suspension component could cause a serious problem. Really consider if you are up to it.

Move around to avoid dumping too much heat in one spot. Is it near any bearings?

 

[bri_man57]

my experience with that is as long as you are not welding a truss on that covers a very long length, you wont have issues with warping. I do desert off road stuff and have welded many spring perches, shock mounts, caliper mounts, limit strap tabs, to rear ends and have never had anything warp or ever really been concerned about it. if the heat is localized like brackets would be, you should be just fine!

 

[BassProCamaro97]

Know your limits. Failure on a suspension component could cause a serious problem. Really consider if you are up to it.

Move around to avoid dumping too much heat in one spot. Is it near any bearings?

I have been considering that very thing as well. I'm going to contact the local pro to see what the price is. I have never had an issue with any of my welds but I've never tested them either. I know the machines up to it but I don't know about the operator.... It would be 8" from the bearings. The center section would be removed. (Ford 9")

my experience with that is as long as you are not welding a truss on that covers a very long length, you wont have issues with warping. I do desert off road stuff and have welded many spring perches, shock mounts, caliper mounts, limit strap tabs, to rear ends and have never had anything warp or ever really been concerned about it. if the heat is localized like brackets would be, you should be just fine!

That's good to hear. I plan to straight edge it before I do anything regardless.

~Jim~

 

[bullnerd]

Tons of videos on you tube.

 

[zmotorsports]

I weld on quite a few axles. Just take your time and move around, don't hang out on one bracket or in one area too long but run hot enough to get the weld burned in good. If toes aren't wetting out nice it's not enough. Many times people think they should lower their settings to prevent too much heat but this is actually opposite. By not running hot enough you have to hang out longer and put more heat than necessary into the part so just be mindful of that.

Also very important is to ground as absolutely close as you can to the weld/bracket. When you switch sides, move your ground to be close to where you are actually welding. Absolutely do not ground to an axle shaft or yoke where you will run the current through a bearing. Don't laugh, I've seen it all too often.

 

[bri_man57]

Jim, sounds like you have the tools and the experience. I would go for it!

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[iagsxr]

What's the housing going in? I wouldn't weld on a circle track housing or one going in a fast drag car without it being checked for straightness after. Where I live there are plenty of people who can check it and it's not expensive.

 

[bri_man57]

I think you will be fine. Welding in a small area is not what causes axles to warp

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[bri_man57]

What's the housing going in? I wouldn't weld on a circle track housing or one going in a fast drag car without it being checked for straightness after. Where I live there are plenty of people who can check it and it's not expensive.

From welding brackets on? Seems excessive to me

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[Ign]

my experience with that is as long as you are not welding a truss on that covers a very long length, you wont have issues with warping. I do desert off road stuff and have welded many spring perches, shock mounts, caliper mounts, limit strap tabs, to rear ends and have never had anything warp or ever really been concerned about it. if the heat is localized like brackets would be, you should be just fine!

This. I'll still do like one side of one shock mount, then move to the other shock mount, then back, etc...but not sure it matters that much

 

[72Camaro]

Axle tubes are pretty thick. I doubt the bracket you’re welding on is the same or even close to the same thickness. Weld away without worry.

 

[BassProCamaro97]

What's the housing going in? I wouldn't weld on a circle track housing or one going in a fast drag car without it being checked for straightness after. Where I live there are plenty of people who can check it and it's not expensive.

It's going in a 1000 hp street car.

Axle tubes are pretty thick. I doubt the bracket you’re welding on is the same or even close to the same thickness. Weld away without worry.

The axles are 1/4" and the brackets are maybe 1/8". The upper range of my 211 is 3/8" which has me leaning toward sending it out.

Thanks for the replies all!

~Jim~

 

[mike93lx]

It's going in a 1000 hp street car.




The axles are 1/4" and the brackets are maybe 1/8". The upper range of my 211 is 3/8" which has me leaning toward sending it out.

Thanks for the replies all!

~Jim~

I would have a pro do it if there is any hesitation. 1000hp? The budget must be there to make sure it is right.

You having a cage made? If so, have the same shop do this work

 

[BassProCamaro97]

I would have a pro do it if there is any hesitation. 1000hp? The budget must be there to make sure it is right.

You having a cage made? If so, have the same shop do this work

The budget is there. Cage's always get subbed out since I know for a fact I'm not talented enough for that!

~Jim~

 

[Willie Makeit]

just wrapped up a 4 link / Panhard bar set up on a 12 bolt ... tacked (MiG) all the bracketry in place during the mock up of the chassis, then disassembled and took it to the workbench and did final welding with TiG. Skipping around from bracket to bracket and not concentrating too much heat in one spot and you'll be fine.

 

[Robert Haas]

All these folks telling you to do yourself...

I wonder if they would go for a hard pass in the car knowing the guy that did the welding was not real confident in the first place?

If you don't feel your skills are up to the task then don't do it. Suspension failures from bracket loss is catastrophic and could kill you.

Just that simple.


To all the people encouraging a person that you have no idea of their skill sets to go forward and do the work. You are not thinking very well, not at all.

 

[sberry]

Practice it on similar material, turn the machine wide open. I agree, hotter and faster making sure its melting and it will work. These type of brackets are welded on all the time in factories with little or no real inspection or training. Millions of them for decades, as I recall we got ubolts going around. Most of this stuff tears, good share has some progressive damage or fails a piece at a time and is not catastrophic,,,, if it was the world would come to a stop.

 

[sberry]

Insurance companies insure faulty work, unqualified work, old houses all the time, even do it under **** home inspectors. I saw one pass the other day with old broke KT, whole house but the furnace on 2 old delapitated circuits with wrong fuses.
The owner said,,, it had some kind of inspection,,, I said,,, even if you cant change a lamp a blind man can see the obvious.
Drive down the hiway and have hundreds of cars facing each other at road speed with faulty tires, rusted broke brackets and frames, non working brakes, worn steering and its rarely a cause of injury,,,, not that it cant happen and doesn't and am sure you can find it but most **** brakes without incident.
The guys own car, his own machine and he has enough conscience to ask about the risk,,, I say go for it.
Somehow a **** weld from a factory is ok, a goober weld falls off a comp tank, its the end of the world to put a decent one back on. Last leak I fixed on one wasn't rusted out from collected water as it was a bracket for the wheel kit some incomp USA slob done it in the factory.

 

[sberry]

Hot and faster and sufficient in a single pass. Careful minimum tacks and not at bead starts, dress them if needed but finish hot at a tack to reduce crater at the end. Some tacks to well clampe work are short beads and finish running back the other way. I might weld another bracket on while that's cool but try to make the welds one shot without so many stops. I get enough on one side of many brackets if design permits, it needs to be enough but not have the snot welded out of it.

 

[bri_man57]

All these folks telling you to do yourself...

I wonder if they would go for a hard pass in the car knowing the guy that did the welding was not real confident in the first place?

If you don't feel your skills are up to the task then don't do it. Suspension failures from bracket loss is catastrophic and could kill you.

Just that simple.


To all the people encouraging a person that you have no idea of their skill sets to go forward and do the work. You are not thinking very well, not at all.

Well when someone hops on the forum asking for a specific technique for a specific situation, there is an assumption that they already do welding. Op asked how to make sure the axle doesn't warp, not how to mig weld so....

Moreover, this isn't some rocket engineering that needs testing with weld certs, laying down some mig weld is not really difficult and some of the people on this forum make it seem like it's the end of the world if you don't have some pro do a relatively basic task. You'd be surprised how much jank work gets put out there by "pros " especially in drag racing.

I'm not gods gift to welding, I still struggle to get it to look the way I want but have never had one fail! And I'm hard on my offroad truck!

I do agree with Robert that if you don't feel confident then don't do it, that's common sense, but the discussion was if welding on localized brackets with warp the rear end, not how to weld. Cheers friends!

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[sberry]

I make a living working on equipment. I have seen some real junk and a lot of crappy work, have seen a lot of good done by amateurs, some of the best. Very rarely do I see something that was the result of a ****** welder, once in a while and it was blind side, out of position in congested area. Would have worked if the guy was competent.
See way more broke by design, rust, most of it factory stuff, quite a bit been done by school learned engineers. Some due to duty cycle, some lack of maint. Most after significant wear.
I met a guy a while back talked me up about welding. He studied, was self learned and had some right and some wrong and a lot of opinions and said he was a 6013 guy and I thought WTF. I looked at a hitch bumper he had welded on a machine and was really impressed. Wouldn't have a problem paying the guy for it.

 

[Bigblue&Goldie]

I see the argument for doing it yourself and having it done. 1,000hp is no joke.

Is the housing a factory housing or an aftermarket unit? I'd personally shy away from a factory housing at that power level. I'd also want a full floater. On an aftermarket housing I'd say just burn it in nice and hot and you will be fine. On a factory housing I'd say you will need to be more careful. Realistically, on an actual street car you will break traction long before a decent weld on a bracket shears off.

 

[zmotorsports]

I agree that when someone asks how to prevent something from warping that I am already assuming that they already have the necessary skills to actually lay down a decent weld bead, but that could be an incorrect assumption on my part.

That being said, if someone comes on here, or any forum for that matter, asking for advice on how to do something I am surely not going to discourage them from doing so with the expectation that they know their limitations as I surely don't.

Being raised on a farm I saw my share of poor welds and many of mine were perfect examples when I was first learning to weld. This is also why I pushed myself to learn more and more about the skill. Working in the Industrial Maintenance industry for over 3 decades much of the stuff we work on is more dangerous and can kill you faster than a 1k HP strip car if a weld fails. I have seen some great welds and some pretty ****** ones over the length of my career and it is amazing how well even the ****** ones hold. I'm not condoning laying down ****** welds, just pointing out that we all have to start and started somewhere as no one was born with these skills and it isn't exactly rocket science for the most part.

I definitely don't want to see anyone get hurt but I think it goes without saying that everyone should know their limitations and not exceed them but learning and fine tuning skills is something that should be celebrated rather than discouraged.

 

[4 FN 27]

Back in the day when I was doing Tech Inspection at races I saw a lot things that I scratched my head at. Technically speaking they passed according to the rules.

The one that boggled me the most was a Vega certified to 8.5. There was an SFI change in the rules and it needed to updated. It was brought to my shop.

I had to cut the A Pillar Post Bars out along with the Diagonals and Knee Bar. While cutting with the Sawzall I saw what I thought was a piece of a weld fall off. Yep...it was. A piece of JB Weld where they could not reach on top because of the roof getting in the way.

Called the Division 5 Chassis Cert guy and he came over. We found every top weld had been JB'ed and a lot of time was taken to make them look like welds and painted over.

I believe he still carriers that node in his suit case with the Sonic Gage to show people what not to do.

I'll reach out and see if he can send me a picture of it.

Being involved in a 205.51 MPH upset in 2005 I value a good weld.

As far as the housing goes my practice is if it is a major job like Ladder Bar or Four-Link Brackets, weld em up 100% without any concern. Then cut the Axel Bearing ends off and reinstall with an Alignment Fixture centering everything again. 1° warp on a 30 inch Axel is .523651 misalignment at the differential. That is a lot of binding and short lived bearings...good welds or not.

The ultimate is building the complete assembly using fixtures. Stress relieve the housing, Drill the Bolt Pattern for the Third Member (Ford or Chrysler Front Loader) and weld the Axel Bearing Ends on last. You will have as close to a "zero resistance" rear end you build.

Doesn't really answer the OP's question but it is a recommendation.

 

[Bigblue&Goldie]

Pat, can you explain the stress relieving process and what you used as a datum point for setting up the center section for drilling the 3rd member pattern?

 

[Robert Haas]

The Shock mount on a coil over car holds the whole corner of the car up. If it lets go, it will be doing it at the worst possible moment. (Think about a thousand HP car getting loose on the big end and getting sideways)

I realize that MIG welders have turned every person with a 700 dollar welder into an expert. Facts be told I have seen more cremated welds turn to fractured junk from people that actually know nothing at all about welding theory or the simple physics of what happens to steel when it is welded.

Tho OP may very well have the chops and trigger time to pull this simple project together with zero problems. Many folks do. However I still stand my my original posts that if the OP is not dead solid sure he can do the job correctly, then it is just irresponsible for the members of this or any other forum to encourage him to take such a risks.

Poor fabrication technique has consequences. A lesson I learned a long time ago and I never actually knew who the poor welder even was.


My best friend growing up was a super talented driver. So much so that he was hired to drive cars that the owners could not drive themselves. (Blown Methanol door slammers as an example). He was asked to help a guy get a shoe box Chevy with a Blown Big block and 4 speed sorted. They made half a dozen passes and late in the day during maybe the second full hard pass the four bar brackets sheared off the drivers side and the rear end snapped forward sending the car hurling in the air at well over 130 MPH. It was the worse accident I had ever seen with the car completely destroyed. My friend was unable to get out of the wreckage and the safety crew had to cut him loose. Before they had him out, he bled to death. Right there in a test and tune Thursday at the old Baylands drag strip.

I think about that all the time. 40 years have passed and I still think about it.

 

[4 FN 27]

Pat, can you explain the stress relieving process and what you used as a datum point for setting up the center section for drilling the 3rd member pattern?

BbG great question.

4130 Housing:

The actual process was Normalizing the 4130. I don't know the exact numbers. The 4130 is heated to above +/-1600° and then allowed to cool over a given amount of time. This removes almost all the stresses built up from the welding process.

This is done to the completely welded Housing less the Axel Bearing Ends. These are added after Normalizing.

The Datums are pretty straight forward. The Back Edge of the Four Link Bracket (FLB) are mounted to the Fixture attached to the Bed of the Mill.

The Bottom Edge of the FLB are the Y Stop and must be indicated in square.

Finding Center is done by touching off the Centerlines of the Four Link Bars and setting zero half way in between. All the Rearends we did were centered Pinion. Thus Axel Lengths for left to right were different lengths. You can set a Pinion Offset if you would like it is just a different zero in X.

Touch off the "Chunk Ring" Surface and you have a zero.

Machine the "Chunk Ring" Surface flat and reset Z Zero.

Drill and Tap the holes for the "Chunk" (Third Member).

Now Machine the ends of the Housing square making sure you consider Center Pinion vs Offset Pinion.

While the Rearend was still on the Mill in the Jig we would use a Gasket duplicate made form .015 Stainless Shim Stock. Bolt Down a Third Member torqueing it to spec. Using a 2 1/2 Precision Ground Alignment Bar we would tack weld the Bear Ends on assuring they were square and set at the proper distance from centerline. Now the assembly was removed from the Mill Fixture for final welding on the ends while the Alignment Bar is still in place.

Any Rearend that came out of Don Ness Racecraft was completed this way. I made the 4130 Sheet Metal components for Don and he did all the welding and machining. He wouldn't let anyone else touch the process.

Using this process and a 9-1/2" Pro Stock Third Member Assembly you would be as close to Zero Drag as you could get.

Completely Assembled Housing Model

Datums

Don even did some Titanium Housings. They were works of art!!!

 

[zmotorsports]

Mmmmm, those are **** Pat.

I'll bet those are words you never thought you'd here together in one sentence.

 

[Bigblue&Goldie]

Thanks for the detailed info!

I've heard from numerous guys in the off road industry "not all housings are created equal", which I imagine is the same in drag racing. I think these race housings have a lot more into them than most people think. It's a lot of welding and machining processes to end up with a perfect result. I know there are only a few shops that supply most of the trophy truck housings. Most of the top chassis builders don't build their own housings.

The team I race with runs a Tube Works rear end. The most impressive part is the size of the axle shafts. They take a little nudge with a slide hammer to pull, but they go in and out super easy considering the abuse the housing is subjected to.

 

[sberry]

Robert has a valid point. Its not that something cant happen. We like to pile on sometimes, its the nature of a forum I guess. The guy has some experirence and enough machine, half the battle. He sounds like he would be using materials common to this and not a beginner design.
It was a point I was working on in another thread. The standard a narrow specialist is different, I used to think that early on. I went from the top to the bottom and the real risk is worth knowing. There is probably an after market or spec bracket over a standard shock mount?
Its a reason I don't use my old truck anymore, run them more carefully and less, they are legal due to an inspection but are really too old, not that I don't weld well enough or good enough mechanic but design has improved soooooo much, I could build some in but **** could find a box truck 25 yrs newer for less money and less work.

 

[sberry]

Back in the day when I was doing Tech Inspection at races I saw a lot things that I scratched my head at. Technically speaking they passed according to the rules.

I saw a car at a festival. Nascar. The tubing is pretty thin so it helps but the welding was too cold for me. Looked like some blind old fart that hadn't did in a while did it. While there is a lot of fuss over tig I can dial it in to get full pen and bridging gaps in the fitup that the backside is and looks the same where its needed as a tig job. I start with burning a hole in it and working my way down so as just not to burn one in vs turning the machine up to catch up.

 

[sberry]

I dont weld a lot and my common work looks great to bystanders so being out of practice doesn't matter much till something gets sticky. Last time I thought I was going to have to test I thought no big deal and went over the booth to do something tricky,, ****,,, I managed to run a few rods for a week or 10 days till I was running it vs just hanging on. I should practice 10 minutes 2x a week.

 

[sberry]

The design of the rear end helps with build accuracy and a couple things are machined when finished which helps. The nature of the pumpkin gives a chance to tune the fit along the way.
We built some trailers from scrap and instead of perfection we hand plasma cut it all for speed and did minimal grinding but simply cut on the line and tacked it up when it had a perfect gap, then weld up some gaps, I did the proto for all the dimensions for the first and we copied the guts after that, wasn't hard to hold 1/16over 20 ft of used material simply shashing and tacking.
I can see fitting the rear end, keep measuring and fitting, machine it perfect in the end and grind any welded seams smooth. I would like to see it sanded and painted. Bet it looks even better.

 

[sberry]

I can see that once a guy did it more than once would help a lot.

 

[BassProCamaro97]

Sorry for the late reply. I was dealing with some not so fun things this weekend but glad to report all is well.

To answer a few questions the housing is an after market from Strange Engineering. Brand new just built last week. Reason I'm in this mess is because they wouldn't weld the aftermarket brackets for me. The tubes are 1/4 inch thick.

I've decided that I'm not going to mess around with it for $100 bucks or less. I know I can weld this thing safely but fact is I can't straighten it if I mess it up and 2nd i Don't want there to be any chance of error for those around me in case I'm not as good as I think I am on that day or any day.

Thanks for all the comments and those rear end pictures were out of control beautiful!

~Jim~

 

[sqznby]

Don even did some Titanium Housings. They were works of art!!!

Hubba Hubba

 

[sberry]

I am not sure how I would feel they wouldn't weld some brackets on. Just "hiring" someone doesn't make for a good job either.

 

[mike93lx]

I am not sure how I would feel they wouldn't weld some brackets on. Just "hiring" someone doesn't make for a good job either.

A major manufacturer not wanting to take on custom work with parts they didn't make or engineer?

I would have been amazed if they agree to it.