Welding Gas Cylinders

[Muggzy]

I've found a couple of used cylinders on a local sale site. Guy says "he thinks" one is/was nitrogen and the other co2 & I'm guessing are 80 cf since the guy described them as ~3' tall. I asked him to confirm the contents.

My question is "does anyone think I can exchange these at TSC for argon and C25? I'm trying to learn tig on a budget here and $50 for these two tanks is a great deal if I can swap them for what I need. I have no experience with welding gas cylinders either so any advice is appreciated.

Btw, TSC is quite a bit cheaper for gas refills ($15 less) than Airgas per 80cf tank.

Thanks for the advice.

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[driftpin]

Me "thinks" both are purloined, and you better have a good explanation for how you came to be in-possession of them when the fill station checks the hydrostat dates and the tank #'s.

Why wouldn't someone know what they have? Shouldn't the pin index reveal what's in them?

 

[Muggzy]

Me "thinks" both are purloined, and you better have a good explanation for how you came to be in-possession of them when the fill station checks the hydrostat dates and the tank #'s.

Why wouldn't someone know what they have? Shouldn't the pin index reveal what's in them?

I can think of a few reasons why the owner might not know. Like the owner passed and the family is selling off his stuff for one. I'll certainly ask though and appreciate this advice/heads-up.

Since I know nothing about these cylinders, is the "pin index" readily identifiable? And if I know this no., where could I look it up? Thx

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[rlitman]

Me "thinks" both are purloined, and you better have a good explanation for how you came to be in-possession of them when the fill station checks the hydrostat dates and the tank #'s.

Why wouldn't someone know what they have? Shouldn't the pin index reveal what's in them?

What's a tank #? Cylinders aren't serialized, and nothing 3 feet tall will be a rental that's stolen. Rentals don't come that small. These are owned tanks, and possession is 9 tenths of the law. Also, a pin index is for yoke cylinders. Yoke cylinders aren't used for welding, so this doesn't apply. Welding cylinders use threaded connections where the safety is in the CGA valve fitting.

As for what can be put in them:

First, check the DOT stamping. That will show the pressure. If it is 1800, then it's a CO2 cylinder only. 2015 or higher may be used for compressed gasses.

Next, the valve. Nitrogen, argon, helium and C25 (among other things) all use a CGA-580 valve. If the valve is CGA-580, then you can likely get the gas swapped without many issues.

CO2 is sold with a CGA-320 valve. Regardless of the pressure rating of the cylinder, if it has a CGA-320 valve, you'll only be able to use it with CO2. FYI, since CO2 is a liquid in the cylinder, some CO2 cylinders have a siphon to dispense liquid, while some do not, and dispense gas.

 

[driftpin]

I defer to my more-learned GJ member.

I've taken in tanks before where they told me, "we don't fill someone else's tank that isn't ours."

 

[rlitman]

I defer to my more-learned GJ member.

I've taken in tanks before where they told me, "we don't fill someone else's tank that isn't ours."

Yeah, that would be for large cylinders with a stamped neck ring that identifies a competitor owns it.

 

[MoonRise]

Also, before buying a cylinder with the thought of having it filled at TSC, call or stop by the local TSC and see what they say about filling (usually just exchanging the empty cylinder for a full one from the rack) a cylinder. When passing through my local TSC recently, I thought I overheard a TSC employee saying to a prospective customer something to the effect of they would only deal with their 'own' cylinders (the blueish 'Thoroughbred' brand ones) and not any/all cylinders. YMMV and all that.

 

[Muggzy]

What's a tank #? Cylinders aren't serialized, and nothing 3 feet tall will be a rental that's stolen. Rentals don't come that small. These are owned tanks, and possession is 9 tenths of the law. Also, a pin index is for yoke cylinders. Yoke cylinders aren't used for welding, so this doesn't apply. Welding cylinders use threaded connections where the safety is in the CGA valve fitting.

As for what can be put in them:

First, check the DOT stamping. That will show the pressure. If it is 1800, then it's a CO2 cylinder only. 2015 or higher may be used for compressed gasses.

Next, the valve. Nitrogen, argon, helium and C25 (among other things) all use a CGA-580 valve. If the valve is CGA-580, then you can likely get the gas swapped without many issues.

CO2 is sold with a CGA-320 valve. Regardless of the pressure rating of the cylinder, if it has a CGA-320 valve, you'll only be able to use it with CO2. FYI, since CO2 is a liquid in the cylinder, some CO2 cylinders have a siphon to dispense liquid, while some do not, and dispense gas.

Very informative. Thank you. Are the valve types (CGA-320 vs CGA-580) usually printed on the valve somewhere? Sorry for so many questions, but the drive for the cylinders is significant and lacking experience, don't want to end up with scrap metal [emoji846]

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[Muggzy]

Also, before buying a cylinder with the thought of having it filled at TSC, call or stop by the local TSC and see what they say about filling (usually just exchanging the empty cylinder for a full one from the rack) a cylinder. When passing through my local TSC recently, I thought I overheard a TSC employee saying to a prospective customer something to the effect of they would only deal with their 'own' cylinders (the blueish 'Thoroughbred' brand ones) and not any/all cylinders. YMMV and all that.

Good advise. Thanks

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[rlitman]

...Are the valve types (CGA-320 vs CGA-580) usually printed on the valve somewhere? ...

No, usually just the brand. You'll need to identify it by shape.
The cylinder is also supposed to have a label on it identifying the contents, but these can get destroyed.

Here's a chart where you can find all the valve types:
https://www.concoa.com/cgachart.html

CGA-320 (note the external valve threads and flat faced connection which usually has a groove to accommodate a seal)

CGA-580 (note the internal valve threads and tapered seat)

For comparison, a CGA-540 is used for oxygen (also external valve threads, but has a tapered internal seat)

 

[DougMN]

Yeah, that would be for large cylinders with a stamped neck ring that identifies a competitor owns it.

Also small cylinders.

 

[trackwelder]

Also, before buying a cylinder with the thought of having it filled at TSC, call or stop by the local TSC and see what they say about filling (usually just exchanging the empty cylinder for a full one from the rack) a cylinder. When passing through my local TSC recently, I thought I overheard a TSC employee saying to a prospective customer something to the effect of they would only deal with their 'own' cylinders (the blueish 'Thoroughbred' brand ones) and not any/all cylinders. YMMV and all that.

You are correct. They will not exchange any tanks but the throughbred tanks.

 

[rlitman]

You are correct. They will not exchange any tanks but the throughbred tanks.

Probably a stupidly inflated prices. All the more reason to support a real welding shop.

 

[BD1]

Before buying any tanks check with local supplier. Each one can have different policies. Sometimes buying from supplier will save a lot of frustration.
Recertification can be as cheap as $10 or close to $50, it depends on your area and suppliers.

 

[PugetDude]

I bought a used set of tanks from my local welding supplier, along with an oxy-acetylene rig they were selling for an old retired customer. I didn't want the acetylene tank so they swapped it for a Argon/Co2 tank for my Miller 211. No problem, they just took the acetylene tank back and rolled out Argon/Co2 tank, I've had them each swapped out for full tanks several times, never have had to prove ownership- just drop the empty at the back door and go in to pay, the kid usually has the full tank in the back of the truck when I come back out. It's hard to beat dealing with people who know what they're doing.

TSC is great for bolts by the pound, horse mats and fence staples, but I wouldn't look to them for welding supplies unless I really needed something on a Sunday and my welding supply house was closed.

 

[Lelandwelds]

Very informative. Thank you. Are the valve types (CGA-320 vs CGA-580) usually printed on the valve somewhere? Sorry for so many questions, but the drive for the cylinders is significant and lacking experience, don't want to end up with scrap metal [emoji846]

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CGA is stamped in the valve and cylinder nuts if you have a handy regulator that mates up. Photos will help.

A " 3 foot" cylinder could be a rental acetylene, CA -510 ( a mirror image of CGA-580)

 

[rlitman]

...A " 3 foot" cylinder could be a rental acetylene, CA -510 ( a mirror image of CGA-580)

True. The upper shoulders on one of those are very distinctive, but since the seller has no idea what's inside, it is certainly a possibility.

 

[NUTTSGT]

As long as it's not somebody else's (company not personal) tank, OE Meyer swaps them out with out question when I get my C25.

My torch set however is Ohio Air. When I asked about swapping them out and mentioned the tanks came from a now passed family member, the owner/dealer made one comment. "whoa, stop, I don't want to hear that. You bring one of ours in, we'll swap it."

 

[Lelandwelds]

When I asked about swapping them out and mentioned the tanks came from a now passed family member, the owner/dealer made one comment. "whoa, stop, I don't want to hear that. You bring one of ours in, we'll swap it."

Either someone admires "don't ask. Don't tell." Or that's a perfect real world example of "flexible ethics ".

 

[NUTTSGT]

Either someone admires "don't ask. Don't tell." Or that's a perfect real world example of "flexible ethics ".

Mine aren't stolen so I'm not ethic or morally challenged.

 

[brownbagg]

When passing through my local TSC recently, I thought I overheard a TSC employee saying to a prospective customer something to the effect of they would only deal with their 'own' cylinders (

yes that is correct with any supplier

 

[brownbagg]

let me add one thing, company lease tanks are bigger that personal owned tanks ( at least with air gas) so if the tanks are stolen off a job site, you will get nothing but trouble. if they are personal off like a estate sale, they dont care.

 

[bczygan]

There are more things to add.

Check if you can only exchange or can get the tank filled while you wait.

Most all places are exchange, but I found one local independent that will fill while you wait. He has his own fill plant, so you can keep your own tanks.

Also, some places will take anyone's tanks in exchange. They then just trade tanks with the place that owns them. Some places around here do that, but they don't broadcast the fact.

Bill

 

[Muggzy]

CGA is stamped in the valve and cylinder nuts if you have a handy regulator that mates up. Photos will help.

A " 3 foot" cylinder could be a rental acetylene, CA -510 ( a mirror image of CGA-580)

This is the only pic I have (from the add). Doesn't look too be 3 ft really. Add simply says "compressed gas cylinders. One Alum. One steel." The "3 ft" came from a message the seller responded to for more info. The person thinks one was nitrogen and one co2. I asked for close ups of the labels and valves. Just have to wait and see what I get back.

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[PugetDude]

This is the only pic I have (from the add). Doesn't look too be 3 ft really. Add simply says "compressed gas cylinders. One Alum. One steel." The "3 ft" came from a message the seller responded to for more info. The person thinks one was nitrogen and one co2. I asked for close ups of the labels and valves. Just have to wait and see what I get back.

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If you can get them for less than $50, buy them. If you can't get them filled you can always make bells out of them. The steel cylinder also makes a nice 500-yard gong at a shooting range.

 

[Lassen Forge]

Buy the things, take it to your gas supplier... if you get your hand slapped, so what? The price is right.

The biggest issue is a gas company trying to hammer you for having the cylinders, instead of selling you gas. If they were in the cop business they'd have blue suits... I've bought Cylinders at flea markets, gotten them exchanged, and our local gas co could care less... because it takes these illegal cylinders and makes them revenue generating legal cylinders.But when **** comes to shove, usually those "hot" cylinders are all legal and on the up and up... just no one kept those 50 year old papers on them.

 

[rlitman]

This is the only pic I have (from the add). Doesn't look too be 3 ft really. Add simply says "compressed gas cylinders. One Alum. One steel." The "3 ft" came from a message the seller responded to for more info. The person thinks one was nitrogen and one co2. I asked for close ups of the labels and valves. Just have to wait and see what I get back.

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That's useful actually.

The left one is 60 cubic feet, and the internal threads identify it as an inert gas cylinder that you could put C25 into.

The right one is either 80 cubic feet of gas, or 20 lbs of CO2. I can't make out the valve enough to be sure, but I'm guessing CO2, since it is an aluminum cylinder. FYI, it's missing the protective cap.

Anyway, if you can use the 60 CF cylinder, the price for both is fair just that one, so go grab them.

 

[DpSyChO]

You are correct. They will not exchange any tanks but the throughbred tanks.

At one time you could "buy" your tank into the Throughbred program for small cost. I ask the assistant manager at my local TSC about it last fall and the lady told me "No no no, we've never done that, you have always had to buy the tank from us, we've never swapped out a customers tank". I was thinking they done it at one time but decided I may have mis-remembered. Then three or four months later I was cleaning some stuff out from the shipping container where we used to live bring over to new shop. I was bringing over some "paper goods" like manuals and old receipts I had tenancy to keep and found an old Throughbred welding tank brochure. By old I mean from when my local TSC opened and the Throughbred tank program started. I was going to get a tank from them back then but found out the local weld shop was cheaper. It has in the brochure you could "buy" your tank into the program. I think cost was something like $20-$25 to buy your tank into the program plus the normal fill cost. I assume the buy in cost was to repaint and sticker it?
I've thought about taking the old brochure back to local store and telling the assistant manager lady "It's here in black and white that I can swap out my tank."

 

[brewchief]

I swapped my tanks at TSC 3 years ago with no issues, there was a 10-15$ extra charge since they wern't thoroughbred tanks. I will avoid doing business with my local welding supply shop at all costs.

 

[Showkey]

When you guys are swapping out “someone else’s tanks”............don’t you think they ( the real owners of the tanks ) will send you letter and or collections asking for payment and or return of the their tanks sometime down the road ?????

“Some else’s tanks” includes long term leases and rentals and or other arrangement were you agreed is there swap a tank program.

 

[BD1]

If you can exchange I would definitely get at least a 80CF. 125 CF would be even better . You get more for your money with larger tank. My 125 oxygen was around $30 to refill and my 300 oxygen was $38. Twice as much for $8 more.
Each supplier will be different. Call first.

 

[brownbagg]

those are hvac tanks, proberly stolen

 

[sanddan]

So, I bought my cutting torch tanks in 1980 from a welding shop that isn't in business any longer. I've swapped them out for full tanks many times and never had an issue with any shop I've been in. Why wouldn't all welding shops do this? The tank was a good tank when they gave it to me when full, why would it be treated different when it's empty?

 

[sanddan]

If you can exchange I would definitely get at least a 80CF. 125 CF would be even better . You get more for your money with larger tank. My 125 oxygen was around $30 to refill and my 300 oxygen was $38. Twice as much for $8 more.
Each supplier will be different. Call first.

I did this with my tig tank, changed it for a larger size tank. It ended up costing me a lot more than I would have guessed. Better to buy the correct size tank up front as it will cost you a lot less $$$.