IONH
Well-known member
PCO6, or anyone else, can you confirm my suspicion that the gap between the panels caused by the first weld likely led to the others not being as nice?
Welding in patch panels
- Thread starter jteck75
- Start date
PCO6, or anyone else, can you confirm my suspicion that the gap between the panels caused by the first weld likely led to the others not being as nice?
MP&C
Well-known member
Got any pictures of what you welded?
PCO6
Well-known member
IONH
I agree with Robert that it would be good to have some pictures. I may have this wrong but by saying that you had done a weld of about 1.5" it sounds like you ran a bead that long when it might have been better space your welds out. Lots of tacks and short welds is usually what you need to do. Some of Robert's earliest photos in this thread show that very well.
There are many ways to weld on a patch panel and lot of factors go into your decision. Spending time on You Tube is a great way to see a lot of different techniques (good and bad).
Stew
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IONH
Well-known member
I have a few camera phone shots, 5mp Droid camera. I'll see about getting them up later. But strictly based on my suggestion that the panels might have separated by upwards of 1/8", if I threw my wire into the one in the back, would this likely cause the top layer to just melt away?
Unfortunately, people don't often show the bad weld techniques but only the "accepted" or "good" methods. I do know that the typical method was to do numerous tac welds. However, I ignored what I had seen on so many TV shows (I do watch those Satuday morning shows on Spike) and just did my thing to "see what happens" because it was an overlap and not a **** weld.
I've got some scraps of these fenders left, I might try to get some time to play with it again and see if I can refine my welds. I have a HF 90A gas optional welder. It's about 6 years old now and always treated me well, though I've only gone through about 1.5 spools of flux cored and maybe half a spool of steel wire.
MP&C
Well-known member
Was one side flanged or just overlapped?
IONH
Well-known member
Actually, both sides had a bend to it. I cut a front fender where it went down next to the door so there was the bend by the wheel well and by the door.
Due to the overlap, I had to cut along the bend slightly on the outer piece so it could sit atop the inner piece. I put one C Clamp at each end of the long portion of the sheet (not either side bend).
MP&C
Well-known member
When some people overlap panels, one side normally gets a "joggle" or offset put into the edge of one panel so that when the adjacent panel lays on top of it, the outer surfaces will still remain flush. This is what I was referring to as flanged. Plain overlapped would be slid together, one side is one metal thickness higher than the other. So which do you have at the weld joint across the panel?
IONH
Well-known member
The weld joint was simply one metal sitting on the other. I did not bend either metal to "accept" the other as it will be hidden by a plastic piece of trim.
Found this nice post about welding body panels, was a very good read.
http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/basic-basics-welding-how-do-i-repair-body-panels-44009.html
Found this nice post about welding body panels, was a very good read.
http://www.hotrodders.com/forum/basic-basics-welding-how-do-i-repair-body-panels-44009.html
supermerle
Active member
MP&C
I bought a patch panel for my panel, but the patch has a flange on the one end that goes under the other panel
. Can you straighten the flange out and if so what would be the best way? I have some duck bill pliers?
Would it be easier to use panel adhesive and just glue it? I would rather weld it but gluing sure would be easy, too?
Thanks and here's a picture. The silver is the patch and the blue is the Qtr. panel.
I bought a patch panel for my panel, but the patch has a flange on the one end that goes under the other panel
. Can you straighten the flange out and if so what would be the best way? I have some duck bill pliers? Would it be easier to use panel adhesive and just glue it? I would rather weld it but gluing sure would be easy, too?
Thanks and here's a picture. The silver is the patch and the blue is the Qtr. panel.
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MP&C
Well-known member
My preference is to **** weld something unless you are duplicating something the factory did, i.e. pinch welding a flange together. Otherwise I don't feel the flange should be on there, so my opinion is slightly biased... For a patch panel such as that, the easiest way to correct this is to cut the flange off and then trim the original panel to match. If you have already passed this point, you can flatten the stepped flange using a hammer and dolly, but this area may need some shrinking afterwards. Normally the bends of the flange is so close to the edge where the cut is made that it's not much of an issue, but if you can trim the majority of the excess off and leave minimal fudge factor, you'll have an easier time flattening it back out than if the complete flange is left there. If you can find someone with flattening dies for a bead roller, or a wheeling machine, these may also make short work of it. Minimal pressure on either method, you're just looking at flattening, not stretching.
I wouldn't recommend this, but you can also spot weld the original metal to the patch if keeping the flange, but this normally turns into a moisture/dirt/rust magnet and results in more repairs sooner than expected. To expect to use a hammer and dolly after installing a patch panel and correct any shrinking issues from the welding operation, you will need a **** weld, period. One thickness of metal on one side of the weld and two thicknesses on the other just doesn't cut it. Adhesives are also a viable option, but I have not used them to be able to comment on installation. I have read online that this may leave a ghost line that is visible, especially in darker colors, but have not seen it to validate.
I wouldn't recommend this, but you can also spot weld the original metal to the patch if keeping the flange, but this normally turns into a moisture/dirt/rust magnet and results in more repairs sooner than expected. To expect to use a hammer and dolly after installing a patch panel and correct any shrinking issues from the welding operation, you will need a **** weld, period. One thickness of metal on one side of the weld and two thicknesses on the other just doesn't cut it. Adhesives are also a viable option, but I have not used them to be able to comment on installation. I have read online that this may leave a ghost line that is visible, especially in darker colors, but have not seen it to validate.
PCO6
Well-known member
^^^ I agree that **** welding is the way to go. Mig welding a flanged panel is OK but it can result in problems later. I have a Porta-Spot welder that is for overlapping panels without using a flange - basically put one panel over the other with a 1/2" or so overlap and "zap" the top panel. It has its uses but it too can end up with problems like a "ghost line" later.
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gelierb
Well-known member
MP&C,
My 1st post - pointed to this thread from the i8hmud.com forum. Where were you when I needed you 2 years ago. This is the best info I've seen on patch work! Spent a good while trying to teach myself (picked up a MM180 - great machine) with lots of patch work on my 1978 FJ40 Land Cruiser (18 GA for the most part - link to my mud thread below).
A few opinions drawn from my limited experience:
Before I knew any better (and I also had read everywhere that one could not bang on MIG beads... got to have a TIG, etc.), I stitched up quite a few patches and did no hammer/dolly until after the fact. Even with those fully welded seams, the planishing seemed to work quite well later (also trying to learn hammer/dolly skills). I think I read recently that the newer MIG wire alloys meet a higher standard than some of the older stuff that was used years ago (and in turn are more workable). Using your great examples here I'll change my technique a bit in future.
I'm not sure about that green EP. I've been using weld-primer from 3M and POR15 as a kind of EP. How long for the House of Kolor stuff to cure before you can weld? I just use acetone to clean the 3M weld primer from plug welds before welding. I just wonder how well it will do it's thing down the road.
On my back, crammed up welding under the cruiser the other day with the MIG I started thinking how (even though I want a TIG at some point) if I could have only one machine for body work it would need to be a MIG.
Keep up the good work and thanks for all the helpful info!
Gus
My cruiser website - some patch work:
http://www.fj40toolbox.com/body/quarter-panel2
http://www.fj40toolbox.com
My 1st post - pointed to this thread from the i8hmud.com forum. Where were you when I needed you 2 years ago.
This is the best info I've seen on patch work! Spent a good while trying to teach myself (picked up a MM180 - great machine) with lots of patch work on my 1978 FJ40 Land Cruiser (18 GA for the most part - link to my mud thread below).A few opinions drawn from my limited experience:
Before I knew any better (and I also had read everywhere that one could not bang on MIG beads... got to have a TIG, etc.), I stitched up quite a few patches and did no hammer/dolly until after the fact. Even with those fully welded seams, the planishing seemed to work quite well later (also trying to learn hammer/dolly skills). I think I read recently that the newer MIG wire alloys meet a higher standard than some of the older stuff that was used years ago (and in turn are more workable). Using your great examples here I'll change my technique a bit in future.
I'm not sure about that green EP. I've been using weld-primer from 3M and POR15 as a kind of EP. How long for the House of Kolor stuff to cure before you can weld? I just use acetone to clean the 3M weld primer from plug welds before welding. I just wonder how well it will do it's thing down the road.
On my back, crammed up welding under the cruiser the other day with the MIG I started thinking how (even though I want a TIG at some point) if I could have only one machine for body work it would need to be a MIG.
Keep up the good work and thanks for all the helpful info!
Gus
My cruiser website - some patch work:
http://www.fj40toolbox.com/body/quarter-panel2
http://www.fj40toolbox.com
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MP&C
Well-known member
Welcome to garage journal! Glad to see the information we have here is getting out to help others.
I read an article a number of years ago in a restoration publication that conducted a test between epoxy primer and weld throughs. Their findings were such that epoxy offered better long term protection than the weld through stuff. For epoxies, the cure rate varies by manufacturer and shop/weather conditions, but if you know you are going to weld an area something that will help to further promote the curing process is to use a fine scotchbrite pad on the EP after it has flashed a couple hours. This will open up the surface, which normally flashes over first, to expose the paint to better curing. Now having said that, if I try to weld something one day after using EP, I'll see much more burning (as the paint is still not fully cured) than if I were to leave it a week or better (which normally shows little more than discoloration). So it helps to plan out some of your rust preventive measures to coincide with welding schedules
Regarding POR15 products, I have had mixed results in their use, so with the failed adhesion of a product when used in conjunction with other paint products, I'm just not sold on it for ALL applications. Find a piece of metal with surface rust on it and you can hardly grind the stuff off. And if you plan to weld something, wait until after welding, as heat from welding and POR do not play nice together. The heat will cause the POR to liquify in the immediate area of the weld heat in that it puts out an oily sustance as well as some rather noxious fumes. These by-products will contaminate your welds and produce a very porous weld, much like welding rusty metal, which will turn into a moisture trap. (not to mention what the fumes are doing to you) So use caution not to use POR around areas you will weld or wait until after welding is completed to apply. I have experinced failure with the POR in that it does not adhere to other paint finishes. To be more blunt, it peeled off of the original finish on the car easier than peeling sunburned skin. Not that I don't think it has positive uses, but I find that if the area can be properly prepped (abraded, sand blasted, etc) then EP is a more suitable substrate, as I can easily paint over that with just about any "normal" paint product without worry of failure. If you are talking of areas that have limited access for prep work, i.e. inside doors, cowls, rockers, etc., then POR does a nice job of addressing and protecting those areas as there is normally some surface rust for it to bond with. So yes, I do find uses for it, but don't hail it the cure-all fix-all for all scenarios.
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gelierb
Well-known member
Can I safely spray small amounts (say touch up gun) of EP in the garage with a good mask? And I noticed you brushed a bit earlier, would a brush be OK to use in areas that are hidden and don't need a critical final finish? I only have a small Dewalt compressor (that yellow vertical thing on wheels) but really need a decent way to preserve patched areas until final prep.
Agree with you on the POR15 - maybe good for some rust applications. I've noticed I can almost use my fingernail to peel it off new/good steel. You've opened my eyes on EP - now if I can just brush in EP into some of those patched and hidden areas...
some patch work:
http://www.fj40toolbox.com/body/quarter-panel2
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Justanoldguy
Well-known member
Check out "Gibbs Brand Product".
Amazing stuff.
I use it a lot on bare steel and you can just paint over it later.
supermerle
Active member
MP&C
Here's shot of the side of the patch pln. I know you said use a hammer and dolly, but do you see anyother way you would try to straighten the flange out? I went to a machine shop but they said they couldn't do it that it would warp it to bad?
If I was to weld it with the flange on would you weld both sides? I was thinking this would help keep water out? Then use seam sealer on the back side? I going to do this over the next week so I got to decide on the direction, soon?
Thanks in advance
Here's shot of the side of the patch pln. I know you said use a hammer and dolly, but do you see anyother way you would try to straighten the flange out? I went to a machine shop but they said they couldn't do it that it would warp it to bad?
If I was to weld it with the flange on would you weld both sides? I was thinking this would help keep water out? Then use seam sealer on the back side? I going to do this over the next week so I got to decide on the direction, soon?
Thanks in advance
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MP&C
Well-known member
Looking at your picture from the above post:
It appears you have already trimmed the quarter to fit into the flanged panel. What I would do in this case is to clamp things together where the lower flange fits to your rocker and adjoining panel, and the crown still matches the adjoining panel, then scribe a line at the point the original quarter is cut. Remove the patch panel and ADD 1/4" to this mark and then trim off the excess. As I said earlier, less flange will be easier to flatten back out. Now, find yourself a pice of wood without knots to use as an "anvil", and using a low crown body hammer, hammer from the back side of the panel, front resting on the piece of wood, to flatten out the crease. I suggest using wood as it will not have a tendency to stretch like using a metal "anvil" would. If you find the wood is too soft, try a flat piece of substantial steel, i.e.: 1/4" thick or better to use as your anvil. Just don't get too happy swinging the hammer. You only want to flatten, not stretch the metal. So just enough force to bump the metal flat again.....
***I should point out that a body hammer has a nice smooth face so as not to leave marks on the metal, so if you substitute a beat up (ball pein) hammer and a similar beat up piece of metal, well all of the imperfections will be transferred to your patch panel, making more mess. If you don't have a nice smooth face on your hammer, make it that way before using it on your patch panel.***
........Now refit and scribe the joint again, trim and install.
You suggested keeping the flange and welding on both sides to seal it up. This would be adding twice the heat to a localized area, thus compounding both the shrinking issue from heat and the resulting deformation of your panel. Again, the problem is going to be trying to planish out the weld seam with all that mass of two thicknesses in the middle, without having to rely on excessive filler to finish it off.
For an easier go of **** welding.... the next time around cut out your original sheetmetal AFTER the flange on the replacement panel has already been trimmed off.
It appears you have already trimmed the quarter to fit into the flanged panel. What I would do in this case is to clamp things together where the lower flange fits to your rocker and adjoining panel, and the crown still matches the adjoining panel, then scribe a line at the point the original quarter is cut. Remove the patch panel and ADD 1/4" to this mark and then trim off the excess. As I said earlier, less flange will be easier to flatten back out. Now, find yourself a pice of wood without knots to use as an "anvil", and using a low crown body hammer, hammer from the back side of the panel, front resting on the piece of wood, to flatten out the crease. I suggest using wood as it will not have a tendency to stretch like using a metal "anvil" would. If you find the wood is too soft, try a flat piece of substantial steel, i.e.: 1/4" thick or better to use as your anvil. Just don't get too happy swinging the hammer. You only want to flatten, not stretch the metal. So just enough force to bump the metal flat again.....
***I should point out that a body hammer has a nice smooth face so as not to leave marks on the metal, so if you substitute a beat up (ball pein) hammer and a similar beat up piece of metal, well all of the imperfections will be transferred to your patch panel, making more mess. If you don't have a nice smooth face on your hammer, make it that way before using it on your patch panel.***
........Now refit and scribe the joint again, trim and install.
You suggested keeping the flange and welding on both sides to seal it up. This would be adding twice the heat to a localized area, thus compounding both the shrinking issue from heat and the resulting deformation of your panel. Again, the problem is going to be trying to planish out the weld seam with all that mass of two thicknesses in the middle, without having to rely on excessive filler to finish it off.
For an easier go of **** welding.... the next time around cut out your original sheetmetal AFTER the flange on the replacement panel has already been trimmed off.
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supermerle
Active member
Will do. Thanks for your time! I know it takes great effort to explain to noobs.
MP&C
Well-known member
I think the main problem you'll find is getting the EP to flow through a touch up gun...
As a side note, earlier this year I attended the US EPA mandated training for painters. I think the main purpose of this is to "help" the painters in reducing emissions through training in gun setup, equipment selection, proper cleaning, etc. One of the instructors went on to say how most newbies in the paint shops are given someone's old base coat gun to use as a primer gun. Unfortunately, these are designed to spray something nowhere near the thick viscosity of epoxies and high build primers. He set up an easel with white poster board, laid a strip of 3/4" tape right down the middle, and then using a SATA primer gun filled with 2K primer, sprayed on one side right up to the tape. When he lifted the tape, there was not one bit of overspray to the other side of the tape, just 3/4" away. Additionally, the paint laid nice and flat, as it should. So here we have the purpose built gun, with minimal overspray (less emissions) and a nice smooth finish (less work in sanding) for less material needed to sand it smooth for the base coat..... Not saying to run out and buy one, just food for thought....not all guns work efficiently in all circumstances.
Now, all that said, you should be able to thin the EP somewhat (check the product data sheet) to flow a bit better through a non-primer gun, and although a sprayed finish is preferred to give you a much better (smoother) finish when it comes to sanding, sometimes you do what you have to and break out a brush to cover an area that's not worth rolling something into the booth for. Many production shops will spray primer right there in the work area. So I think you'd be fine spraying with an approved mask and make sure this isn't a garage attached to your living quarters of your house. But if you do have a small area to cover and decide to brush, it will likely take a couple-three coats to get a good covering, whether its EP, POR, or other that you are applying. Or if it's not going to show, you're not worried about topcoating with another color (like in the fenderwells), etc, just let it set long enough to surface rust and then apply your POR with no fear of it peeling...
gelierb
Well-known member
I was looking at something like an Italian Asturo Mini with a nozzle size 1.5 mm because of my toy compressor?
I would invest in a good primer gun if that were my only issue
- see below.Well - the garage is attached - so I'm probably up a creek with a brush in my hand
. I was thinking a 3M Professional Series respirator and small amounts of spray would be ok, but it keeps sounding like I've got no business spraying EP (or POR15 for that matter) around the house. Maybe I can just keep the patch/hammer/dolly work going and leave the repaired areas bare metal until I'm ready for some kind of final overall paint prep? I wanted to get going on the filler work. I'm trying to use as little plastic as possible, but I'll no doubt need some filler. I'm I right in assuming if I put something like Evercoat down and leave it without protection (EP, etc.) it will absorb moisture and other bad things will occur over time? The bare steel seems to hold up without much surface rust in the garage. Even thought about lead but of course that has it's own safety issues.Thanks again for all your knowledgeable feedback and great advice!
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gelierb
Well-known member
Robert - any opinion on the small Iwata LPH80 HVLP Miniature Spray Gun - seems like really low operating air pressure (1.8 CFM). Almost like a big air brush that might handle some small area primer work with less "home garage" environmental issues? Largest pattern width 5.5 inch with a 1.2 nozzle. Sounds like this thing is expected to handle heavier artist-type oil paints, etc. so I'm wondering if it can push the EP stuff?
And then I'd be set up to create other air-brush-type masterpieces down the road.
http://www.tcpglobal.com/spraygundepot/lph80.aspx
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supermerle
Active member
MP&C
Sorry I've highjacked your post but here's alittle more on my project. Here's a picture of the flanged dollied out and then picture of the patch panel (PP) welded and it doesn't look near has nice as yours but since it will be hidden by some trim I think that its welded fully with alittle mud it will be good. My PP should have had a little gap between panels but I've learn alot thanks to your great write up. Thanks again.
Ps Last pic is the rear QTR. removed
Sorry I've highjacked your post but here's alittle more on my project. Here's a picture of the flanged dollied out and then picture of the patch panel (PP) welded and it doesn't look near has nice as yours but since it will be hidden by some trim I think that its welded fully with alittle mud it will be good. My PP should have had a little gap between panels but I've learn alot thanks to your great write up. Thanks again.
Ps Last pic is the rear QTR. removed
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MP&C
Well-known member
Merle, this isn't my thread to hijack.....the original poster had asked some questions about panel clamps and welding, but it seems to have turned into a pretty good grouping of info on patch panels. I think the panel flange flattened out pretty well for you. A **** weld will be much more manageable in the end for you, and once planished out should minimize the need for filler.
gelierb, I would check with the manufacturer on their recommendations on the capabilties of that gun. Don't have one myself, so can't really comment one way or another. I did have some Iwata guns but sold them off. My local paint supplier carries Sata, and thier "travelling" salesman can rebuild any Sata gun at my place, without having to send something off. So to me local support means a bit more, and I think you'll find the two brands comparable enough to take that into consideration. Don't forget to try out your local craigslist ads, there are some good deals on barely used stuff that will make the quality name brand stuff nearly as cost effective as the cheap offshore stuff. Combine that with local parts support, and you should be golden. If you are not looking at full paint jobs, then Sata makes a smaller gun (minijet series) that may look like others touch up guns, but with an approx 11" spray pattern, its big on performance.. Many shops use these for their small jobs.....panel sprays, bumper covers, etc....
gelierb, I would check with the manufacturer on their recommendations on the capabilties of that gun. Don't have one myself, so can't really comment one way or another. I did have some Iwata guns but sold them off. My local paint supplier carries Sata, and thier "travelling" salesman can rebuild any Sata gun at my place, without having to send something off. So to me local support means a bit more, and I think you'll find the two brands comparable enough to take that into consideration. Don't forget to try out your local craigslist ads, there are some good deals on barely used stuff that will make the quality name brand stuff nearly as cost effective as the cheap offshore stuff. Combine that with local parts support, and you should be golden. If you are not looking at full paint jobs, then Sata makes a smaller gun (minijet series) that may look like others touch up guns, but with an approx 11" spray pattern, its big on performance.. Many shops use these for their small jobs.....panel sprays, bumper covers, etc....
gelierb
Well-known member
Thanks for the feedback Robert - did not know Sata made the same kind of gun. I'm going to see if I can locate that SATA minijet 3000 B HVLP Design Set locally. Thought I would also give a few on-line companies (TCP Global, etc.) a call and see if they can get it.
Gus
caper150
Well-known member
It's hard to find a Sata gun on-line, they are very particular about who sells their stuff. I have been to their warehouse a few times for paint training(their only US warehouse is only an hour away from me) and one thing I know they told me is that if they find one of their suppliers selling their stuff cheap, they'll pull them from them and never allow that co to sell them again.A friend of mine baought a new gun online and was at the class and told the sales man how much he paid for his new gun, the sales man asked to see it got the number off the gun and tracked it back to who sold it and then they pulled their stuff from them.
I jhave a mini jet it's a great gun, not good for primers but good for touch ups.
I jhave a mini jet it's a great gun, not good for primers but good for touch ups.
gelierb
Well-known member
So is there any way the SATA Mini with that "SR" 1.1 nozzle would spray primer in small areas? If not it's back to the drawing board.
projectPONY
Well-known member
IMO the 1.1 needle is way too small for today's high build primers. you might be able to get away with some primer sealer but I'm not sure. I own a minijet and mine has the 1.0 needle, I didn't know there was a 1.1 available.
caper150
Well-known member
So is there any way the SATA Mini with that "SR" 1.1 nozzle would spray primer in small areas? If not it's back to the drawing board.
For a primer gun I only use something cheap at home, something like this would be finefor primer.
http://www.harborfreight.com/air-to...ow-pressure-gravity-feed-spray-gun-47016.html
At my second job I use one of these, it's a great gun as well.
http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/...rmarket/Products/Featured_Products/Accuspray/
Joe From NY
Well-known member
Justanoldguy
Well-known member
gelierb
Well-known member
6 inches of flattened out copper pipe cost nothing.
I use some old small copper plates (from bar stock in the machining days...) the biggest of which is about .375 thick and really nice and flat. Clamped to the back of a **** joint you can crank up the welder a bit and still get good penetration without a big "bump" of filler on the back side. But I usually do that only when I need a "cleaner" rear side to the weld area. Like inside a door where a glass guide bracket will mount later after paint but it's almost impossible to get a grinder to.
As far as controlling burn-through around small holes, I have had much better luck (than copper) using small pieces of sacrificial steel. Heavier (14 GA, etc.) sheet metal will usually back up a small hole nicely and then just pull away from the back-side. The heavy steel pulls heat but not as much as copper and still won't "fuse" to the filler (if you're careful
) . Once filler is in the hole you can hit the backside with a small tack if needed.I also have a bunch of round slugs in various diameters/gauges and I'm always trying to develop new ways to hold them in place for a quick weld. As long as I'm not creating "lapped" moisture traps on the back this works well for me. I usually grind away any excess on the back side down to weld filler.
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Bad dad
Member
Hi Robert,
Your writing, photos and general information are as good as your metal working, I'm sure we'll all benefit from your input.
I'm hoping to make a start on my early 1942 Willys Jeep in the near future, providing I get some house and family things ******* to earn some good garage time. I haven't welded for years but do have gas and a MIG stashed away from previous projects.
Some people have suggested I get a cheap TIG, but a few guys I've spoken to who weld professionally have said to me that a cheap MIG might as well go straight in the skip and to stick with the MIG which as it's at least 15 years old is probably better quality than the garbage on the market today, it's made in Italy not China. It seems similar to what you said early in this thread.
Another thing that looks relevant to my Jeep is that as an early one the body tub was primed in Zinc Chromate as used in the aircraft industry, I'd like to replicate the original look so that as it ages down and gets scratched etc it looks Kosher. The KP 2CF looks similar in colour in the photos and would be particularly good inside places like top hat channels under the floor that always go. Would you say it's a fairly good colour match to the Zinc Chromate to use over the whole tub? I've checked and it is available here in England although like everything else here it's suitably expensive.
Regarding backing up welds with copper to dissipate heat, I have a number of bolt holes where Willys didn't put them from things like Bubba's roll bar etc. I have a few pieces of heavy aluminium plate and also some old 3/4" copper pipe from the house to flatten, I'll experiment with these clamped behind to see what works best.
Thanks for your info so far.
Douglas.
Your writing, photos and general information are as good as your metal working, I'm sure we'll all benefit from your input.
I'm hoping to make a start on my early 1942 Willys Jeep in the near future, providing I get some house and family things ******* to earn some good garage time. I haven't welded for years but do have gas and a MIG stashed away from previous projects.
Some people have suggested I get a cheap TIG, but a few guys I've spoken to who weld professionally have said to me that a cheap MIG might as well go straight in the skip and to stick with the MIG which as it's at least 15 years old is probably better quality than the garbage on the market today, it's made in Italy not China. It seems similar to what you said early in this thread.
Another thing that looks relevant to my Jeep is that as an early one the body tub was primed in Zinc Chromate as used in the aircraft industry, I'd like to replicate the original look so that as it ages down and gets scratched etc it looks Kosher. The KP 2CF looks similar in colour in the photos and would be particularly good inside places like top hat channels under the floor that always go. Would you say it's a fairly good colour match to the Zinc Chromate to use over the whole tub? I've checked and it is available here in England although like everything else here it's suitably expensive.
Regarding backing up welds with copper to dissipate heat, I have a number of bolt holes where Willys didn't put them from things like Bubba's roll bar etc. I have a few pieces of heavy aluminium plate and also some old 3/4" copper pipe from the house to flatten, I'll experiment with these clamped behind to see what works best.
Thanks for your info so far.
Douglas.
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emeraldcoupe
Well-known member
when you hammer the welds flat, do you need to do it after each spot weld when they are hot or wait until your done? i'm getting ready to patch my front fenders on my 66 stang and this thread has been an AWESOME help.
MP&C
Well-known member
Douglas, the Willys sounds like an interesting project, be sure to start a build thread on it when you get your "garage time"
House of Kolor used to have Chromate in their KP epoxy, and it stuck well to anything. With the introduction of regualtioins and restrictions, they have removed the chromates, hence the CF (chromate free) in the pn. The parts A and B still use the same colors fo the old formula, a yellow and pale blue, so when mixed you get the seafoam green look. They also carried an EP epoxy years ago, that took about two to three times as long to cure and the KP, and it worked extremely well on flexible parts. I painted this carbon fiber drag bike using the old forumla EP, and once all was painted I rolled the flat side panels (the ones behind his feet) into a circle. No cracking or failure of any of the paints (all H/K). The plus of this stuff was the one part of the epoxy used a white color instead of a blue, so teh resulting color when mixed was just slightly off from your zinc chromate you are looking for.
I don't know that you'll be able to find the old H/K EP formula anywhere, but there may be a source of actual zinc chromate out there still, in countries without those restrictions, or perhaps in military surplus items. Good luck with your search. As another option, you should be able to tint an epoxy, if of light enough color, to the resulting yellow you are looking for. A local paint supply shop may be able to help....
For hammering the welds, it depends on your techniques. Some people will complete all of the dot welds and then flatten them out and planish all at one time. Some may have difficulty in maintaining a consistency of flatness in this process and may choose to planish one dot at a time. You may find it easier to planish while there is still heat in the weld, but I don't know that I'd reheat to planish, as you are re-introducing heat, and thus shrinkage effects on the metal, exactly what we are trying to rectify with planishing. As long as you have adequate weld penetration, I have never experienced any cracking issues that you may have heard of. This has been touched on earlier in this thread.
I have used both methods, depending on the situation. I will say that for a novice it may be easier to planish the single dots and then grind away the excess as this tends to keep the panel more in check from the effects of the heat from welding. I would say to try welding some scraps to practice with each process and use the one you are more comfortable with. Gas welding or TIG will likely produce a weld that requires less cleanup, but TIG in particular is less tolerant of gaps than a MIG. Where MIG seems to be more prevalent and perhaps more versatile, it will also require more clean up work. But you can still produce results that can be metal finished to use little or no filler.
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MP&C
Well-known member
I posted the following in another thread as a response to a question, but I think it may help to answer some of the welding/shrinking/planishing questions.....
Here is a thread I did on welding and shrinking, this may give some insight......
For all the progress pictures, how-to's, etc, sometimes the small details get lost in the shuffle. I thought I'd start a thread just to get people thinking about the effects of welding and perhaps how to read a panel to see if we need to shrink or stretch the metal.
Using a headlight eyebrow picture as a sample, looking at a cross section of the patch panel we have a long arc that stretches from the outside of the fender to the inside. Once we weld along this seam, eventually going from one end to the other, the heat from welding will have a tendency to shrink the area in the HAZ (heat affected zone). In most cases, any shrinkage from the welding will tend to be more prominant within the center section of the panel, especially one with a low crown. In effect, the original arc shape (red) as the heat from welding attempts to shrink the area, will cause the arc to shorten in length. As the ends are somewhat locked in place, the result will be a smaller arc (blue) and even though the welds have been dressed, this can be seen as a slight dip (yellow arrow).
To correct this flaw, short of increasing the stock prices of bondo, some stretching of the HAZ thoughout the weld is in order. Some 80 grit on a long board sander, and a cross hatch pattern across the area will quickly show the high spots (become bright and shiny) and the low spots (sander didn't touch them) Match the contour underneath as closely as possible to an appropriate dolly, and with a low crown hammer (the flat one), use the on-dolly technique (you should hear a ping when you strike) to stretch the area. (this should only be done after the welds are dressed and the panel somewhat flat) Worked slowly and methodically, checking your progress with the sander. If you have an area you got too happy with the hammer and it now shows too high, use off dolly (dolly on low spot underneath, hammer strikes the high spot on top....gently- no ping sound) to bring it back down again. Repeat as neccessary until you are happy with the results. The recent fender repair I did to remove a crease shows what can be accomplished using this method. Where this used to have a good amount a filler as a repair, we should be able to straighten much of it out where high build will address the imperfections:
Once we have the dolly selected, in this case we use some off dolly with a ******* to bring down the high spots. (A ******* has much more surface area, and thus has less chance of leaving marks as a hammer.....plus can span a narrow valley to off-dolly the two sides at once) Unlike welding, a glancing blow as I have here in this sample does stretch the metal, so some shrinking is in order.
Once the high spots are brought down and the panel countour looks close, some on-dolly in the low areas will bring them up a bit more.
Much better:
For flatter panels such as quarters, I think some may be under the misconception that because a panel used to be flat, and now that the metal has moved away from its flatness, well obviously the metal has stretched. NOT! There are very few, if any cases where a welding exercise will result in the permanent stretching of metal. Sure the metal will stretch while exposed to the heat from welding, but as the area cools, the molecular structure re-aligns and becomes tighter, closer than they were previously- resulting in shrinking.
Looking at the cross-section of the quarter, the same principle applies as the eyebrow patch above. Where this is a lower crown panel, and the heat often wreaks more havoc on the center of the panel, in many cases it will shrink, lose some of the crown, (become more flat), and possibly start to oil can as the metal loses its shape. In the picture below, again the red arc would represent the original shape, and the blue shows what occurs as the weld shrinks the surround area; the arc loses some of its length and pulls the adjoining metal into a valley.
To correct this, the hammer and dolly principles as explained above are used. Use caution, no matter what type of panel you are working on, to not get trapped with "tunnel vision" and only focus on the immediate weld area. We should always keep an eye on the surrounding area as well, and check your progress with some long metal strips/rulers laid across the area to help see where the shape needs to move. On a quarter, I like to lay a long ruler across the seam to read the dip, and then also drag it along the panel parallel with the seam, to see any change in the crown from the unshrunk area and into the welded area. Hopefully this will give a better understanding to what happens when welding so we can use more metalworking and less filler.
Remember, on-dolly, metal pinging sound = stretching. Off-dolly, NO pinging sound and light taps = shrinking
Just to clarify a couple points, I had some questions about the above initial post....
To explain what is occurring, when using On-dolly, hammer and dolly directly lined up with each other on opposite sides of our green metal, and when you strike the hammer you will hear a ping as the force travels through to the dolly. (red arrows) The secondary action is that this forces the metal outward (blue arrows), in essence stretching the metal.
Now after someone backed into your fender (obviously stretching the metal) we have a ripple to remove. Using the off dolly technique, each tool on the high part of their side of the panel, striking the panel with the hammer will force the metal bulge of that side downward (red arrow) as does the dolly on its side of the panel. The secondary action in this case is to force the metal back into itself (blue arrows), as well as raising/lowering the metal as you suggest. By no means will you see the amount of shrinking that takes place when you introduce heat, such as with the torch or shrinking disc. But it shrinks, just the same.
As far as planishing the metal, where ever you see discoloration from the heat (the HAZ), you have experienced shrinking. Simply planishing the weld will help, but to truly fix the effects from the heat, the HAZ outside the weld will need planishing as well.
.
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emeraldcoupe
Well-known member
thanks for that post!
Bad dad
Member
Wow,
Thanks for all the info robert.
Douglas.
Thanks for all the info robert.
Douglas.
gelierb
Well-known member
Robert,
Great stuff, thanks for all the effort!
How'd that German hammer get in there?
Gus
Great stuff, thanks for all the effort!
How'd that German hammer get in there?
Gus
gelierb
Well-known member
Robert,
I just ordered a Martin 1024 surfacing spoon, which I'm hoping will be a good "*******"?
I have their Light Dinging spoon. I've never understood the "light dinging spoon" - where you hit the spoon with a hammer. How does one hit the spoon and hold a dolly behind at the same time. Are there a situations where you use the hammer-on-spoon in your work with no dolly support? I guess that "light" spoon can also be used as a *******?
Gus