There are plenty of excellent shops in NZ.
Every bit as good as the best in America.
Kiwis are renown for their meticulous work.
Maybe you have just been looking in the wrong place.
Reminds me of " the grass is greener over the fence"
Mark, if you could find a local Kiwi to show you some O/A welding, then you'll get rid of the Mig headaches..Thanks looking into to some shops over here but for now I'll keep practicing enjoying these sites everyone so helpful cheers mark
Pete, will add some comments later tonight, but if you look through my shop projects thread it may show some tuck shrinking that would help on that corner flange, or use of a hammer form. What area of the world are you in? Someone local may be generous in inviting you over to show how that is done. Not knowing your location impedes those invites.
Looks great! Thanks for the tips sir
I am keeping my fingers crossed....'05 is the best year for the Ram Hemi IMHO.
Looks great! Thanks for the tips sir
Well MP&C, I made my cut. I referenced your drawing, but as I started to drill out the plug welds I kept seeing more rust in the seam between the tower and the fender so I expanded the scope a little.
After a little review there was a second cap on the top of the strut tower that I wanted to avoid so I changed the cut on the top to avoid it. I realize I've made a much tougher shape, but there were also 2 or 3 layers of panel already involved and I didn't want to involve a 4th. The tower itself is 14ga, the fender is 20ga.
So question time again, I've got this left from cutting out my strut tower
I think I'll be better off patching the patch? then reinstalling it onto the new fender. Here's the other side of it.
Patching this will be easier than trying to recreate this shape. My concern is that in putting it back I think I'll be short of the tight fit you always mentioned for your templates. Would it be worthwhile or possible to add a strip to the edge of this to give myself some material to worth with? or am I likely just adding to my troubles with more welding/shrinking/deformation?
And despite what it appears like I'm listening to advice intently but as you know it requires adaptability for each scenario.
Yes, they have the inner wheelhouse pieces as well.There is a solution to this problem....Fluid Film http://www.fluid-film.com/applications/automotive/. Also, if you pop out your tailights, you can wash out the area that rots out.If you get rid of the salty mud that accumulates over the wheels, I don't think it would rust out. I pulled the drivers door panel off...clean as a whistle
, but 1 rocker has a few bubblesWell I guess it's about time for a sequel. I had a left over door from a bus repair earlier this year, and as it was damaged the least, we thought to keep it as a starting point. New ones in primer go for just under 1K, so I think we can save some money here....
The last time I used the "donut dolly" was with the low crown body hammer (the flat one) but when I tried it on this flat panel, progress seemed to be rather slow. I think the low crown hammer was better matched to a crowned panel, and with this panel being flat, I may have better luck with a crowned face body hammer. So as we're starting with bent metal anyhow, what's a little trial and error going to hurt? I'll just keep my fingers crossed that the hammering force would not be great enough to pound dents in the other direction. (we're looking for consistency and moderation
Here's our dented sample today, an aluminum door skin with a nice crease that travels just about the full length of the door.
As the donut dolly is very closely matched in size to the hammer diameter, accuracy in locating the devices opposite each other is crucial. Depending on the panel you are repairing, this may be a challenge in itself. To keep the tools properly aligned and thus provide a more efficient shrink, I suggest a grid on either side, matched to identical starting points.
I numbered every fifth one just to keep better track of where I was. Some days you need all the help you can get. Also shown is the damage before starting, located at grid 5, 10, and 15, just for reference of our progress.
As I am working with a flat panel, I am able to use a straight edge to monitor the progress and see where additional shrinking may be needed. If you are using this process on a crowned panel, I would suggest making a profile template matched to the undamaged side of the car. Also, seldom does the crown on a panel remain consistent from one end of the panel to another, so it is very possible you may need different profile templates to accurately guage different sections along the panel.
After about 30 minutes of work, here are the results, again located at grid 5, 10, and 15.
And the light reflection shows considerable improvement over the first pictures....
This is now at a point we could strip the paint off the door, and any remaining defects would be taken care of with high build primer.
If you have your heart set on the vintage version, likely due to patina retention??, you may find the need to use any and all methods of including heat, in the removal of weld distortion and farmer added abuse in the form of dents. To clarify, any ripples that occurred from welding a strip along the bottom is due to shrinking. Anything in the form of dents from past life abuse is stretching. Different methods of repair, and quite a challenge to get things flat again. I'd say there would be less work involved in making a new set, as shown above..A local source was used to CNC a template for bead detail on some Model A p/u bedsides....
Bead added....
Motion picture version:
Close-ups of the results...
Need a little advise with a patch on a fender. It's from a 69 Charger
(pic removed)
I figured I should make a template so I followed Robert's (MP&C's) example.
1st putting cellophane over the area I want a template from (this is another fender with the same area that is good) Then using reinforced tape in a cris-cross pattern right onto the celophane (tape wont stick to the fender) to lock in the shape
(pic removed)
I highlighted the body lines. Turned out pretty good! (robert you are awesome!)
Nice job on the Flexible Shape Pattern.
First, One of the nice parts of using the FSP is that it acts as a guide for letting you know if you have enough shape in the part. Looking at your bottom picture with the flexible shape pattern laying on top of the new patch, you should be able to tap on the pattern in any location, and if it is loose, you don't have enough shape in the panel. (yet) You want to be able to tap on it with no "gap" of air under the flexible pattern to the patch. At that point of no voids under the FSP the patch matches the original panel and is ready for installation.
Second, the 90* crease is one of the last things you want to do on a patch, as it locks the shape. In this case it is restricting what you can do to the panel above the crease, where you need much shape put in. IMO the bottom crease should be the last thing done here, start by using a shot bag and adding some shape to a FLAT panel. When your FSP fits snugly, then add any creases.
Next I went back to the fender I want to patch and layed out the boundry of the patch
I know we've discussed at great length to not use sharp corners, and this does have a nice rounded edge for your patch. But the other part to consider in making patches is to insure you have access for a hammer/dolly from the rear side for planishing your weld, and next, to make use of body features that will help to control weld distortion. As shown, the weld will shrink along the mark you have drawn, and as the slight crown (both vertically and horizontally) of the panel shrinks at the weld it will tend to pull the panel into a valley and likely leave a buckle just above the peak of your seam.. Sure you can/will use planishing to reverse the shrinking effect. But the other consideration in weld seam location is body features that help to control distortion. The body crease above will help to hold the panels from wanting to move as much, and if we look further you have a stress crack starting inward from the rear. I would likely perform this patch by cutting the seam about 1" below that upper crease and cut the patch from front to back so you only have one continuous horizontal weld, so you also correct this stress area. The seam should be close enough to the crease that it helps to control any panel movement, and yet just far enough away that the crease stays out of the HAZ. You don't want to shrink the crease, if it turns blue (HAZ indicator) you have shrunk the panel across your "lock", pulling the crown of the panel on both sides of the crease.
Then I overlayed the template and using an exacto knife cut out the template patch
(pic removed)
Here is the template over a piece of metal that had approx the right bend and it had a 90 degree bend
I know I need to shrink the 90 degree bend, this will curve it the other way.
My question is how do I get the body line into it? I dont have a bead roller! Not yet anyway
My flexible pattern is not quite rigid enough, maybe if I would add a 3rd layer it would help?
This may be a long response due to the background info. The primary purpose of the FSP is to show the amount of shape in the panel. To further define, shape in the panel as related to a flat sheet of metal is added by either shrinking or stretching. Compare this to form (also know as arrangement) which more equates to a simple roll or fold in the panel. To undo this form, one could simply un-roll back to a flat sheet. With a shrink or stretch that adds shape, any un-doing is much more complex. You need to stretch to undo a shrink, and vice versa.
Next, in many English wheel operations, we'll use motorcycle fenders for instance, a smaller radius lower anvil may put the fender into the sides of the anvil holder. It becomes difficult to wheel if your holder (bracket) is interfering. So if we were to pull the ends of the fender together, and push the sides outward, we would have a smaller diameter fender that was much flatter. This is done to allow us to use a larger radius anvil that does not have the interference issue as it is higher on the edges of the anvil. In relation to shape vs form, the shape (amount of stretching/shrinking) has not changed, but the form/arrangement has. We can simply push the ends of the fender outward, push the sides toward each other, and the fender returns to where it was.
Note how flat the fender is at the end hanging down. If we push the ends apart, the radius side to side gets tighter. Pull the ends together, the radius side to side gets flatter. SHAPE never changes, only the form.
So what's the point of all this? Your FSP does not need to be a peel-off exact duplicate of the fender. It is only to show us the shape needed in the panel. Once done, if the fender does not EXACTLY fit, a change of the form/arrangement by bending across your knee or slight twist or ???? should be all that's needed. How does it show if the shape is correct? Place the FSP on top of the patch you are making, and lightly touch in various locations. If there is an air gap in the center, the panel needs more shape/stretch to fill that void. If it touches in the middle of the FSP but is loose around the perimeter, you have too much in the middle, and would either need to stretch the outer areas or shrink the area touching. This helps us to get the amount of SHAPE correct.
The patch metal that I currently have has a curve in one direction that is close to the contour, and a 90 degree bend. I have a shrinker stretcher, could'nt I shrink the 90 degree bend and produce a curve the other way
Any sharp crease acts as a lock on the panel. If you were to try and duplicate the crown of the lower part of that fender on a flat panel I think you'll find that the shape flows better. If you try that same feat with a 90* bend to one side, I think you'll lose that flow, have many other issues in duplicating the shape, and perhaps wind up throwing it away in desperation. A crease can be added at any time, the crown is more easily shaped without the restriction of a lock on one side. The shape will also likely be the toughest part to get right, so make that part of the job easier on yourself.
Can you show me wear you would cut the patch
For most fenders, doors, and quarter panels, you see a rather flat area in the middle, perhaps a crease or higher crown area at the top, and the bottom normally has a body line/crease that separates the flatter middle area from a higher crown area that rolls under. Referring to the welding through body features tutorial:
http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showpost.php?p=6137723&postcount=2151
You can see the dramatic effect body features have on controlling weld distortion. Based on those results and the panel you have, I would locate the weld seam just below the body crease into the crown that starts to roll under. The crease does the most to control distortion, but don't get so close that the weld and HAZ (heat affected zone....noted by blue color) ever touch or cross that crease, as now you have shrunk the "lock" which affects both sides of the crease. Any shrinking of the crease and you will add a buckle to the other side. SO as in anything, a practice piece is recommended to see what your consistent HAZ width is, to insure you can locate the weld seam so that the HAZ stays a good 1/2" below the crease. That doesn't give you a finite answer in location, because it needs to be based on your results in HAZ width. But I would cut the seam below the crease into the lower crown of the panel based on your HAZ width results.
I have a friend that does have an English wheel (it is his son's)... but I have no idea how to use it.
I guess either way I go about getting the shape of the panel (english wheel, or hammer and bag) I will need to get the 90 degree bend, could I just cut it and add it with another piece?
Thank you so much for taking the time to explain things
