Welding Machines?

[mpire]

I am looking at purchasing a tig welder.

I intend to loan to my uncle until he gets good at it, then he can show me how to use it.

I am wondering if I can get away with buying a tig and having that as my only welder. Or would it be better to get a less fancy tig and get a mig as well?

Probably very little use overall. The overall goal is to be able to build automotive suspensions out of aluminum stock and have it look pretty.

Looked at Lincoln and Miller water cooled Tigs.

Let me know what you think.

Looks to be very expensive purchase, so wanted to see what you guys thought.

 

[Zeke]

MIG welding of AL is more and more popular. I'd get the Hobart Handler that Jody on weldingtipsandtricks.com recommends. It comes with the spool gun for AL.

TIG machines with high frequency AC, water cooled and all that jazz can be expensive. Jody has used an Everlast Chinese unit with success. If you are going into production, buy good stuff.

 

[mpire]

Never going into production, just doing hobby work restoring cars, and replacing heavy suspension pieces with lightweight aluminum alternatives.

I don't intend to have to buy a second welder because I cheaped out the first time, or at least that's my goal. Lincoln is doing a 4% interest special on the tigs.

I will check out weldingtipsandtricks.com, thanks!

 

[BD1]

Hi,depending on what to want to do, a MILLER SYNCRO 200 or 180SD might be just right. They both are stick too. The 180 is the older basic model, no fancy controls. Turn on, push pedal, and weld. Great machine and mine was $800.00.

Here's some welding sites if you don't have them yet.

http://www.millerwelds.com/resources/communities/mboard/forumdisplay.php?3-Welding-Discussions

http://weldingweb.com/index.php

http://www.hobartwelders.com/weldtalk/

 

[Jackfre]

I had a 180. sold it last summer prior to the move west. Nice machine. Tig/stick in one machine.

 

[Zeke]

Not to campaign for the MIG, but if you are restoring cars, you will want a MIG. You might look into an Oxy/fuel set up as well. YOu can pick those up used all the time but unless you have a way to check the gauges, I'd buy new or recon. But really, if the tanks have air/gas, you can see if the needles are steady at flow rates. Use soapy water to check for leaks.

I don't see how a shop cannot have gas welding and cutting.

 

[bad_idea]

Mig is a good process to have available. Tig is soooooooooo sloooooooooooooow.

 

[Bears Fan]

The Millermatic 211 is a great mig welder, get the spool gun with it and you can use it as a tig welder, it runs off 110 volts or 230 volts. Its a great versatile welder.

 

[sberry]

I really agree, if you don't have a mig you need one, start there.

 

[Zeke]

The Millermatic 211 is a great mig welder, get the spool gun with it and you can use it as a tig welder, it runs off 110 volts or 230 volts. Its a great versatile welder.

No, it is not a TIG. Not even close.

 

[Jonboy1974]

Start with a Mig for car resto work, then step up to the Tig for the intricate stuff. Mig is the best for bodywork.

 

[brownbagg]

I bought a miller tig, couple months ago. havent really play much with it, but I think tig welding easier than mig welding. got it from welding depot on the net for $1200. its a 220 unit

 

[mikeyr]

I have a oxy/acet setup, not welded with it in about 6 years when I bought my TIG but I still use it for rough cutting and as a blue wrench, can't live without it. I have a MIG also, and also not used it in about 6 years since I bought the TIG. I am not a production shop so to the person who said TIG is slow, yes it is and that is fine with me. I can't bring myself to get rid of the MIG "just in case" but I doubt I will ever use it again. Maybe if I built another car trailer the MIG would come in handy because of its speed, but in car restorations (for me) the TIG does it all.

 

[brslk]

I just wanna know why you are going to buy a welder and let your uncle use it until he gets good at it then he will show you how to use it?

Why don't you keep the welder and teach yourself until you are good at it or take a class?

So much misinformation here it is scary.

TIG is easier than MIG? Not at all if you want to do it properly.

You really should post your question on the WeldingWeb.

Bruce.

 

[brslk]

No, it is not a TIG. Not even close.

I think he meant you can use it to weld aluminum with a spool gun. (I hope)

I also agree that the 211 is a must have for general welding.

 

[ElectroLight]

I just wanna know why you are going to buy a welder and let your uncle use it until he gets good at it then he will show you how to use it?

Why don't you keep the welder and teach yourself until you are good at it or take a class?

So much misinformation here it is scary.

TIG is easier than MIG? Not at all if you want to do it properly.

You really should post your question on the WeldingWeb.

Bruce.

^^^ True

The Hobart Weld Talk Board is a good one too.

 

[WILD-BILL]

I bought my Everlast 225 LX after watching ALL of Jody's vids. It is a great machine. I've never tig'ed before but I have been making great progress.

 

[waggie]

......replacing heavy suspension pieces with lightweight aluminum alternatives.

I'm sure you mean lighter weight, but just as strong, if not stronger

I think if you're gonna do a lot of aluminum work, definitely get a tig machine. I have owned a Miller syncrowave 180 before I traded up for a 250DX. If I hadn't sold it and bought a bigger 250DX, I'm sure I'd still be happy with it. But I don't do thick gauge aluminum. Thickest aluminum I work with is 1/8" (I'm sure Syn 180 will handle thicker AL then that though.)

tig is hard to learn, but once you get it, you feel like you own the world. Mig is pretty easy to start, but (in my opinion) takes longer to perfect. The reason I say that, is, with tig you can control the heat on the fly. I set the machine for a few more amps then I need, and adjust accordingly via the foot pedal as I weld. With mig, once you start welding, it's not as easy to adjust on the fly (one hand on mig gun, the other fiddle with the knobs as you weld is pretty much the only way.)

bottom line, my opinion is that if you're only gonna get a good machine, get a good tig machine. a low end tig and a low end mig isn't gonna do you much good.

disclaimer: I can't mig a decent bead to save my life, but i can tig thin AL and SS all day long.



the see the material and type of weld, and be able to come up with the power and wire speed setting

 

[K13]

I started with a MIG and then bought a TIG Miller 180SD and I don't think I have touched my MIG more than a handful of times since. The only thing I use it for is quick tacks that are hard to get to with my TIG.

As for the guys who say that you need a MIG for body work I wouldn't use a MIG to touch sheet metal again since going to TIG. You get way less HAZ with a TIG and the weld is SO MUCH softer and easier to metal finish and hammer and dolly out.

 

[Zeke]

As for the guys who say that you need a MIG for body work I wouldn't use a MIG to touch sheet metal again since going to TIG. You get way less HAZ with a TIG and the weld is SO MUCH softer and easier to metal finish and hammer and dolly out.

I was that guy and you are 100% correct. But, most guys still use MIG machines for auto body repair and restoration. That's what I recommend when it comes to the first purchase. When I comes to **** welds on sheet metal is where you are the most correct.

In fact, the last fender flares I installed were done with oxy/act and a Meco micro torch. They were hammered out and any ripples were shrunk by the torch.

I'm also the guy that said body guys should have an oxy/fuel set up.

 

[Zeke]

The reason I say that, is, with tig you can control the heat on the fly. I set the machine for a few more amps then I need, and adjust accordingly via the foot pedal as I weld. With mig, once you start welding, it's not as easy to adjust on the fly (one hand on mig gun, the other fiddle with the knobs as you weld is pretty much the only way.)

Interesting post. I know one process is constant current while the other is constant voltage. Still, you might wonder with all of today's electronics why a weldor does not have optional variable control over the MIG process other than stick out and angle.

I have never reached over and turned a knob while running a bead with a MIG. I guess I can't walk and chew gum at the same time.

 

[K13]

I was that guy and you are 100% correct. But, most guys still use MIG machines for auto body repair and restoration. That's what I recommend when it comes to the first purchase. When I comes to **** welds on sheet metal is where you are the most correct.

In fact, the last fender flares I installed were done with oxy/act and a Meco micro torch. They were hammered out and any ripples were shrunk by the torch.

I'm also the guy that said body guys should have an oxy/fuel set up.

I hope you didn't take my comment as negative as it wasn't meant to be just trying to provide the whole picture.

I also agree with you that oxy/act is probably the best for sheet metal work and makes a very easily manipulated weld.

I have never tried MIG on aluminum but I would think it would be more difficult that TIG as you don't have the on the fly heat control that you have with TIG which with the way aluminum sops up the heat I would think would be a huge advantage. But that is just my speculation.

 

[bggrnchvy]

I've been running a Miller 175 mig for years, but bought a Miller Dialarc HF 250 tig a month ago.

The tig definitely has it's place, but this weekend while modifying some out of position mild steel tube frames the mig was easily my choice. Simple, quick, and zero gain from trying to tig the joint.

There was some work and some design elements I avoided prior to the tig, but it would be the exact same with the tig instead of the mig. They both have their place and I think you'll eventually want one of both even if you only get a 110v wire feed to supplement the tig.

 

[jeepcoma]

Question from a non-welder but someone interested in learning:

How would an arc welder fit into all of this? I happen to have an old AC/DC lincoln tombstone sitting in my garage. Arc seems to be the red headed step child of welding these days. Is it good for anything, or do people prefer MIG/TIG due to speed, convenience, spatter, ease of use, etc? My basic understanding is that arc is very versatile because of the rod selection (and wind doesn't matter as much, if that's a factor) but more difficult, and you also have to deal with the slag.

 

[brslk]

Question from a non-welder but someone interested in learning:

How would an arc welder fit into all of this? I happen to have an old AC/DC lincoln tombstone sitting in my garage. Arc seems to be the red headed step child of welding these days. Is it good for anything, or do people prefer MIG/TIG due to speed, convenience, spatter, ease of use, etc? My basic understanding is that arc is very versatile because of the rod selection (and wind doesn't matter as much, if that's a factor) but more difficult, and you also have to deal with the slag.

It really depends on what you are planning to weld. I have three welders and the one that gets used the most is a 1963 Forney stick welder / carbon arc cutter and battery charger! (I only weld with it)
The MIG is very handy for a lot of things and gets used a lot also.
The thing with stick welding is that without an immense amount of skill, sheet metal welding is out of the question.
TIG is excellent for a lot of applications but is definitely not faster than stick or MIG welding.

If you are going to get into TIG welding I would start with OXY/ACET welding first. Take a class.
If you can get good at that then you will find TIG a lot easier to pick up.

Bruce.

 

[ARAMP1]

I bought a Lincoln Precision TIG 225 and I love it! I had never TIG welded before buying it, though I had several years of ARC welding experience and some MIG. I've had it for a couple years now and have gotten very comfortable with it. I'll never need another machine.

The first thing I did with it was weld up this cart. If I had to do it again, I wouldn't use gocart slicks. They leak air too quickly.

Anyway, the learning curve was steep. I learned very quickly that the metal needed to be CLEAN and the gaps needed to be tight. TIG doesn't fill like ARC or MIG. The big thing is that if you're welding intricate things, it can be difficult to fit the torch and filler rod in a position to make a good weld. For example, I welded up the motor mounts for my Detroit Diesel swap into an old Chevy, and it was nearly impossible to fit everything into some of the inside crevices of the motor mount. I ended up doing these with my ARC welder.

I'm sure I could have designed the mount differently, or maybe a better welder than myself could have made it work, but I couldn't fit everything in the tight space to lay a quality bead.

My advice would be to buy the most quality welder you can afford to by. I looked on craigslist and ebay for a little over a year with zero prospects. I came home from a deployment and had a bunch of tax free combat pay burning a hole in my bank account, and Lincoln was doing a special. It was destined to be. Anyway, good luck with whatever you choose.

 

[zmotorsports]

Both MIG and TIG have their places. If you are into automotive restoration and do not have a MIG that would be my first priority. Then back that up with a decent TIG machine when finances are available. There are some great smaller TIG machines out there that will weld DC only that are very reasonable. When you start getting into the A/C for aluminum there are many more choices such as a machine that pulses and then you can step up to the advanced squarewave machines that can change frequency and pulses per second.

I think a good 220 volt MIG welder is a great addition to any automotive based shop followed closely by a good TIG machine. I prefer the 220 volt MIG welders because they have a higher amperage capacity and a higher duty cycle.

Nothing is worse than needing to get a welding job completed and you are up agains the duty cycle waiting for the machine.

Mike.

 

[bggrnchvy]

Nothing is worse than needing to get a welding job completed and you are up agains the duty cycle waiting for the machine.

Mike.

Absolutely my biggest complaint about my 175. It's got plenty of capacity to weld the thickenesses I need, but the duty cycle is aweful.

Now that I've got the tig, the next machine will be a 251/2 to replace the 175.

 

[Falcon67]

> Arc seems to be the red headed step child of welding these days.
I can only add that for some auto/hot rod work, it's only MIG or TIG. IHRA/NHRA roll bar/cage welding must be MIG or TIG on mild steel and TIG only on chrome-moly tube. Arc is not allowed.

I get a lot of use out of my Hobart 140. BUT - I should have bought a 175 or better, a dual voltage 211. Next time LOL.

 

[jeepcoma]

IHRA/NHRA roll bar/cage welding must be MIG or TIG on mild steel and TIG only on chrome-moly tube. Arc is not allowed.

Wow, that's interesting. Is the problem with Arc some inherent deficiency in the welding process or more along the lines of "operator error" that makes it less desirable? Does the gas shielding result in a stronger weld than is possible with Arc?

 

[Zeke]

Question from a non-welder but someone interested in learning:

How would an arc welder fit into all of this? I happen to have an old AC/DC lincoln tombstone sitting in my garage. Arc seems to be the red headed step child of welding these days. Is it good for anything, or do people prefer MIG/TIG due to speed, convenience, spatter, ease of use, etc? My basic understanding is that arc is very versatile because of the rod selection (and wind doesn't matter as much, if that's a factor) but more difficult, and you also have to deal with the slag.

If you have a true AC/DC machine, you have a great welder. You'd be surprised how finite you can get with one on low amps with skinny rod. Welding on cast iron, building anything out of 3/16 or 1/4" steel, even wire cutting foam. And no gas required. That's a handy welder.

 

[Wastedwagesracing]

I have been doing some testing of some Fronius welders. They have some sweet units and weld process. We were able to run cold metal transfer (CMT) its' a MIG type of process and get a weld that looks like a high quality TIG weld. We build food processing equipment. So we have to have the stacked dime TIG look. Great potential both for hand welding on automation.

I also tested the cold wire TIG. Basically it s a TIG welder with a spool feeder on it. Welded nice but way to much farting around with getting the wire in the right place in the puddle. Has good potential for an automated process.

Last we tested Plasma welding. To me the only advantage over TIG is you can have greater torch to work piece variation and still get a nice even weld. Otherwise I failed to see the advantage of it.

But when I have to weld something that my life depends on it's the old stick welder and drive that rod in the puddle. Just makes me feel like I'm making one hell of a good weld.

 

[zmotorsports]

Absolutely my biggest complaint about my 175. It's got plenty of capacity to weld the thickenesses I need, but the duty cycle is aweful.

Now that I've got the tig, the next machine will be a 251/2 to replace the 175.

My MIG machine is the Miller MM251 and it is an absolutely fantastic machine. I have welded with a friends new MM252 and it is a very nice machine as well. I don't think you will go wrong with either of those.

Mike.

 

[zmotorsports]

Wow, that's interesting. Is the problem with Arc some inherent deficiency in the welding process or more along the lines of "operator error" that makes it less desirable? Does the gas shielding result in a stronger weld than is possible with Arc?

It is the fact that the HAZ is harder to control with SMAW as well as the fact that SMAW is not friendly with thin wall tubing. By thin wall I am referring to anything under approx. .125" wall thickness. The flux on the rod is also problamatic as it is prone to causing inclusions and/or porosity when welding tubing.

MIG (GMAW) is allowed with mild steel but anything made out of 4130 chromoly as far as NHRA or IHRA is concerned should be TIG (GTAW) welded.

Mike.

 

[zmotorsports]

Question from a non-welder but someone interested in learning:

How would an arc welder fit into all of this? I happen to have an old AC/DC lincoln tombstone sitting in my garage. Arc seems to be the red headed step child of welding these days. Is it good for anything, or do people prefer MIG/TIG due to speed, convenience, spatter, ease of use, etc? My basic understanding is that arc is very versatile because of the rod selection (and wind doesn't matter as much, if that's a factor) but more difficult, and you also have to deal with the slag.

I learned on an old Lincoln AC/DC "buzz box" as they used to be called. It is great for farm/implement type repairs and/or heavy fabrication. It is still used very heavily in the piping/steam industry with fantastic results.

The reason it has somewhat disappeared from the automotive arena is because materials have gotten thinner and more aluminum is being used these days.

In the old days stick welders (SMAW) was used on frames/chassis and oxy/acetylene was used for welding body panels. Now day MIG (GMAW) is more versatile for chassis and sheet metal. TIG (GTAW) is also very good for both plus the benefits of aluminum but seems to not be as popular in automotive shops. TIG is usually found in fabrication shops rather than automotive repair shops.

Mike.