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Welding sheet metal with AC stick welder

madison069

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Bear with me but while working on my Camaro I found old style body work under some of the Bondo. Basically where you use a screw to pull a dent. This resulted in several holes being left in the metal. At this time I have a AC stick welder (craftsman colormatic) but no mig welder. Ideally I know a mig is the answer but I'm just wondering if any had any experience with just using a stick welder to fill these type of holes? Base on my reading a 3/32" 6011 rod would work but checking for real world experience.

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ratdoggy

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Never done that with stick but with MIG you need to back the hole with a piece of copper to act as a heat sink and the copper wouldn't stick to the weld....
You could practice on a scrap piece of sheet metal before trying it...I would
 

lilredex

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It can be done, but do a few practice runs first. I put some pipes together with my Lincoln 225 buzzbox. The rods used were 3/32" #7014. About the same job as you are facing.
 

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sherlocktk

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I welded similar before with wire flux mig welder, which is a similar process to stick welding. I agree on the copper backing plate, go super slow and practice on a lot of scrap until you get a feel for what works.
 

NUTTSGT

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In typical GJ fashion, nows the time to buy a mig welder.


I watched my old neighbor one time try to weld on a horse trailer with a stick welder. Boy, it sure didn't look pretty.
 
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madison069

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I'll be sure to grab a piece of sheet metal that's the same thickness and drill some hole of the same size. This will give me results I'll be expecting on the fender and doors.

If time and money wasn't a constraint, then I would go through the process of buying a mig and get a bottle of gas. But $6 of rods and a little grinding time sounds better at the moment.
 

teamextreme

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You have to be fairly skilled with a MIG to get decent results welding thin body panels like this. If all you've got is a stick and from the sounds of it, not a total ace-welder, there's no way I'd attempt this on a classic Camaro you're trying to restore. I'd buy a MIG, borrow a friend who has one, take it to a body shop/welder to throw a couple tacks in, anything to avoid the potential mess a stick will make with that.
 

rsanter

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They make special rods for sheet metal. Still not ideal but they work ok. Used them years ago.
Back with copper to pull excess heat and prevent a blowout
 

MattT

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In typical GJ fashion, nows the time to buy a mig welder.

Except telling the guy he needs to buy a MIG isn't overkill. Though I'm sure someone will be saying he needs to get an AC TIG before the thread hits page two:lol_hitti
 

Boilerhouse

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If I absolutely had to use a stick, I would likely go with a 6013 rod, it does mild penetration. Because it is a fast freeze and a very aggressive rod, a 6011 can do wonders in the hands of an expert, and blow big holes in stuff in the hands of a novice.
 

MoonRise

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Even with a MIG machine, it takes some practice and skill to do that type of weld on automotive sheet metal.

With SMAW?

Hell no.

3/32" 6011? No F'n way.

6011 is an AC rod for deep penetration through mill scale, rust, and paint. 6010 is the DC version.

The opposite of what you want or need when welding thin sheet metal.

3/32" 6011/6010 would usually run at about 40-60 amps on the low side and 70-90 amps on the high side.

https://www.millerwelds.com/resources/weld-setting-calculators/stick-welding-calculator

6013 rod is a slightly better choice for welding sheet metal with SMAW, as it is a low(er) penetration rod.

Even so, 3/32" 6013 will usually run at around the same amperage, 40-90 amps. Still more than you want/need for welding automotive sheet metal. Nice for welding some 16 gauge stuff (0.060" thick), but even there you can quickly blow a hole right through if you aren't pretty good at stick welding thin sheet.

Use the right tool for the job at hand. SMAW is NOT the right tool for this task IMNSHO.

Even most small GMAW machines have more than enough power to blow a hole through automotive sheet metal if you turn the machine up too high on the power output or don't have some practice (and SKILL!) on welding thin stuff.

Hire it out, find a skilled friend to MIG it for you, or buy a small MIG and practice for several hours over the course of a few days/weeks to get a feel for welding sheet metal with the MIG.

Some 0.025 solid wire and C25 gas and set the machine at about 30 amps or so based on the parameter chart in the manual or the the door of the machine depending on the exact thickness of the metal you are dealing with, copper backing to help minimize blow outs, and you still will need some practice and skill to do those welds.

Did I mention yet that SMAW is NOT the right tool/method to do those welds?

:beer:
 

brownbagg

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i dont think my machine go that low, maybe a hot car battery and some every small rods but like somebody said, torch and coat hanger but then there a chance of heat warping, so maybe just bondo them
 

Awag

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The old school way to fix them holes is to solder them shut. I've soldered 1/4" holes shut before in the roof of a suburban.
 

metalmagpie

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Second the oxy-acetylene torch method. Actually, buy a cheap high frequency box, plumb it to your welder, and TIG it.

metalmagpie
 

madhatter

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I would avoid trying to weld that yourself with a stick, unless you're a really really experienced welder. You're going to end up blowing holes in the metal and ruining it.
 
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madison069

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Thanks for the suggestions everyone! If I had the coin to just drop on a mig welder right now I would. I've used a mig to fill in small holes on automotive panels before and it was a case of small tack welds on the hole with cool down periods until it was full. A little hammering on the weld to help spread the tacks and keep it from pulling the metal too much was the ticket for us. But it was a buddies mig I used back then and I moved away.

If worst comes to worst I'll load everything up and take it all to a buddy's body shop and together we will fill the holes.

But I'm still intrigue to try doing it with an ac welder. So I found some 1/16" welding rods 6013 and got a lb ordered. I'll take some copper pipe and flatten the end and fold it over to give me a copper backing behind the hole to help prevent blowout. The weld will get grinded down, so look isn't too important, but filling it in is the goal. I'm not able to do anything this weekend but I'll be trying this hopefully next weekend and I'll post the results when I do!
 
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madison069

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I'd also weld that from the back..

The door i can't get to the back side easily. One of the reason why I thought to use a copper pipe so I can make a long piece. This will allow me to hold the pipe through the window opening and i can bend the end to ensure I get it flush against the sheet metal which ever angle I have to hold the pipe at. The fender will be good to do from the back side though!

1/16 inch 6013 rod if you are going to try a stick welder. Back with copper. Practice on scrap.

Yep that's the plan. I asked my body man to save a scrap panel for me so I can practice on it. Will see how it goes!
 
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Jackfre

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Taht old song, "and never was heard a discouraging word..." is running through my mind, but with your skill level and the job at hand, I just don't see it. It is really disconcerting when metal just flat out disappears. I am...was, a highly skilled welder who after some years away from it decided to repair the floors in an old BMW and the metal just disappeared. Stunned and amazed I was. I had better luck when I cut a 4" piece of 1 1/2" copper pipe and pounded it flat to back up the weld. It did take the heat out and I began to get my hand. I would suggest that you get help. I just don't see your process working out here. There appears to plenty of work on that car, so don't push it and your skill level on this. I'm always interested in car restoration pics. How about it? "Old Camaro" is kind of a tease.
 

junkyardwarrior

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You will want to isolate the heat as much as possible, copper backing will help with that a bunch. You may have to shape the copper to fit the contours as needed. If you can find them, 6013 1/16" will do it. Obviously not ideal, and you WILL have to use some filler (bondo) after grinding. MIG is a better option because you can control the heat to a much more confined area. TIG in something like this is a pain, you need a helper to hold the copper backing while you use both hands to heat/fill the holes. At one point I had a '74 Maverick which was an LDO (luxury decor option), which meant it had a vinyl top, thicker glass, and a piece of trim molding all the way down the side, doors, fenders, and quarters. That trim was screwed on from the back side, so there were about 30 holes in each side to fill. All I had to deal with was an old Craftsman (I mean really old) stick welder, the kind that you had to remove the lead from one hole an place it into another to change amperage. I hated that thing but it's all I had. With a piece of copper pipe beat down flat over some railroad iron, I used it for backing and 1/16" 6013 to fill every single hole, then grinding, then filling each hole. On the back side, you'll also want to get some corrosion protection on it to keep it from corroding. It wasn't that hard, and came out fine. You DO have to be mindful of the heat because obviously if you camp out too long you're going to either (1) burn through or (2) warp the sheet metal. Or in my case (3) all of the above. The good thing is that material can be added back in, although that's not the ideal solution, it works. Mine came out fine, could not see any of the filled holes (at all) after the color and clear were laid down. Nobody but me knew it was an original LDO.
 
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madison069

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Taht old song, "and never was heard a discouraging word..." is running through my mind, but with your skill level and the job at hand, I just don't see it. It is really disconcerting when metal just flat out disappears. I am...was, a highly skilled welder who after some years away from it decided to repair the floors in an old BMW and the metal just disappeared. Stunned and amazed I was. I had better luck when I cut a 4" piece of 1 1/2" copper pipe and pounded it flat to back up the weld. It did take the heat out and I began to get my hand. I would suggest that you get help. I just don't see your process working out here. There appears to plenty of work on that car, so don't push it and your skill level on this. I'm always interested in car restoration pics. How about it? "Old Camaro" is kind of a tease.

Yea i know your feeling about watching the metal disappearing, been there done that! Hopefully with the scrape piece I will hit the sweet spot of amp and time of arc to ensure I get it filled in and not blow through. Worst come to worst I scrap the idea of using the ac welder. If I can't get it done on the scrape sheet metal then I'll run everything over to my buddy's house who is a body man and has a mig. As for the Camaro project I got pictures on my garage thread toward the end. It's a 1979 Camaro that I've had for a long time and I'm ready to get it moving on it's own instead of work on everyone else's stuff!
 
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madison069

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You will want to isolate the heat as much as possible, copper backing will help with that a bunch. You may have to shape the copper to fit the contours as needed. If you can find them, 6013 1/16" will do it. Obviously not ideal, and you WILL have to use some filler (bondo) after grinding. MIG is a better option because you can control the heat to a much more confined area. TIG in something like this is a pain, you need a helper to hold the copper backing while you use both hands to heat/fill the holes. At one point I had a '74 Maverick which was an LDO (luxury decor option), which meant it had a vinyl top, thicker glass, and a piece of trim molding all the way down the side, doors, fenders, and quarters. That trim was screwed on from the back side, so there were about 30 holes in each side to fill. All I had to deal with was an old Craftsman (I mean really old) stick welder, the kind that you had to remove the lead from one hole an place it into another to change amperage. I hated that thing but it's all I had. With a piece of copper pipe beat down flat over some railroad iron, I used it for backing and 1/16" 6013 to fill every single hole, then grinding, then filling each hole. On the back side, you'll also want to get some corrosion protection on it to keep it from corroding. It wasn't that hard, and came out fine. You DO have to be mindful of the heat because obviously if you camp out too long you're going to either (1) burn through or (2) warp the sheet metal. Or in my case (3) all of the above. The good thing is that material can be added back in, although that's not the ideal solution, it works. Mine came out fine, could not see any of the filled holes (at all) after the color and clear were laid down. Nobody but me knew it was an original LDO.

Sounds like your old Craftsman welder is what I currently have! The goal is to fill the holes with metal before I put new body filler back on. It did have Bondo on it and since I had old multi-color Bondo on the car I didn't trust it, so i removed the Bondo and that's where I found the holes. The area wasn't thick with Bondo but I wanted to reduce the amount of water getting to the filler so I am working on filling the hole. I did order a pound of 1/16" 6013 rods based on some suggestions here. When the holes are filled I can reach in the door with the spray gun and coat the weld job with some paint to keep corrosion away.

But like i said if I can't get some holes filled on the scrap then I'll just take it to my buddy's house.
 

jubilee

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You need a stitch welder attachment. I see some for sale on EBay $20-30. I always used 3/32” 6013 to fill pull holes. Even after I got a mig 40 years ago, I still filled with the stitcher because the weld was much softer metal. Easier and cooler grinding. Stud guns made mine obsolete, but I get it out now and then for hard to reach panel welding. Works only on AC. Eastwood might still sell them.
 

chase237

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I'll just add that if it's been distorted, pulled, sanded, painted, stripped, sanded again, etc, etc, don't discount the fact that the metal is going to be a lot thinner than you think. And it will also be inconsistent.
Best of luck.


Sent from my iPad using Garage Journal
 

PWC Repair

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I've done it several times before with a 115v stick welder and the 1/16 rods. You need a piece of scrap steel handy and also grounded ready to weld. The tiny rods with low amperage want to stick to the metal. I found the trick is to drag the rod several times across some scrap until it gets the end hot and produces a good arc......THEN try to weld.

That being said, I would not risk warping a panel all to ****. You can Marglass the backside til it squishes out the holes, then just skim coat it with regular filler. The green colored glass resin filler is waterproof, I use it on gouges in jet ski hulls. Thus no moisture will be trying to wick in from behind standard filler.
 

ZRX61

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I bet ya know someone with a 120-150A 110V mig. I filled all the holes in my '70 Ranchero, just a real quick *e* kinda spiral move with the gun.
This was right after I'd had a plumber leave a 6ft stick of 1in copper pipe at my house. It became a bunch of different heat sinks from 3 to 12in long, some flat & others with various curves after running them through my slip roll after I hammered the pipe flat.
It's damn near worth buying a stick of 1in copper pipe at Lowes etc just to make a bunch of heat sinks for welding.
 

JamesW84

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When the holes are filled I can reach in the door with the spray gun and coat the weld job with some paint to keep corrosion away.
You need to fiberglass (bondo glass) over your welds before you apply paint. Paint alone will not make it waterproof. Sounds like your buddy does auto body, so maybe you know that. That's what I learned last year when I replaced a cab corner and repainted the side of my truck.
 

ZRX61

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You need to fiberglass (bondo glass) over your welds before you apply paint. Paint alone will not make it waterproof. Sounds like your buddy does auto body, so maybe you know that. That's what I learned last year when I replaced a cab corner and repainted the side of my truck.
What??
 

nadogail

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For What It's Worth,
I have found 1/16 6013 & 7014 electrodes at Harbor Freight in small 1 LB packs.
I turn the heat way down

Good Luck
 

AngryBeaver

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I personally wouldn't try it.

1/16 6013 if you have too.

HF mig welders are cheaper than the holes you are going to blow and have to replace or repair correctly...
 

gearhead1

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Yes it can be done, I’ve done it. I worked for a guy who owned a body shop and back in the day all he had was an arc welder. We set the amps on the low side to the point that the rod is on the verge of sticking. DC works even better than AC.

Weld a little spot, let off to cool, weld a little spot, let off to cool..........

Side note: This is why people like welders with infinite amp control like Millers. The old Lincoln buzz boxes go from 75 to 90 amps, no in between. Thats a big jump when dealing with sheet metal.
 

gearhead1

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I'm no expert, that's just what I found. If you didn't weld it 100% and had any pin holes that moisture could get through the back side, you'll have rust issues.

Here's a video of an auto body instructor who has many videos:

Friend of mine owns a body shop, that’s exactly what he does. He coats the backside, otherwise it rusts eventually.
 
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