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Welding sheet metal

ArkTinkerer

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I'm not a total noob when it comes to welding. I can stick parts together with a stick and I rather enjoy gas welding. I have tried a couple flux core wire welders. They don't do a great job at anything as far as I can tell. Lots of spatter, bad penetration for thicker stuff, but my biggest gripe is that I thought it would be good for sheet metal. I either wind up with blobs and spatter or I burn thru the sheet. I'm pretty sure I would be better off with gas but a) it would be slower and b) I'm stubborn!

I have tried a good machine with argon gas and it took some fiddling with settings but within an hour or two the results were acceptable.

The wire welder I have now is a cheap model with two current settings and adjustable wire speed. Is it worth while to go buy several wire sizes/types and just test them out? I think that could get rather pricey. Any suggestions?

ArkTinkerer
 
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antinym

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I've never had luck with just a flux-core welder (i.e. no gas). It might be possible, but I've never seen it. With lots of prep and practice MIG can make great welds.
 

MoonRise

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You have to use the right tools and procedures for what you want to do.

First off, welding sheetmetal (thin stuff) is kind of tough to do, no matter what. There is a fine line between not enough 'heat' and instantly blowing a hole right through the metal. And you also have to manage the heat input carefully or you'll end up with a very warped piece of sheetmetal.

Next, FCAW usually does have more spatter than GMAW. It's just one of the ways the two processess are different.

And FCAW usually burns 'hotter' than an equivalent 'size' of solid GMAW wire, so it will usually enable you to weld slight thicker steel (with the same machine) than you could with GMAW.

Most of this should be covered in your manual (if from any of the 'decent' welding companies), so RTFM applies here.

Next, 'cheap' welders (machines) are often tougher to use because they have a rather limited power output in the first place and they also have a rather limited power adjustment in the second place. Run the machine at one of its 'sweet spots' on the appropriate thickness of steel and it can give OK results. Try to run that machine on a much different thickness of steel and you can be in for a difficult time trying to make any sort of 'good' weld.

Example time. All of this is for steel.

Lincoln L-56 solid wire GMAW, using short-circuit transfer (as almost no 'small' machine has the power output and voltage output to run in spray-mode transfer).

0.025 wire at 100 ipm WFS and 15-16V in short-circuit transfer mode gives about 35 amps using C25 gas, about 80 amps at 17-18V and 250 ipm WFS.

Everything else the same but use 100% CO2 as the shielding gas and you have to run at 17V for that 30 amp output, and 19V for the 80 amp output.

0.030 wire at 75 ipm and 15-16V gives about 35 amps using C25, about 70 amps at 150 ipm and 16-17V, and about 130 amps at 300 ipm and 20-21V.

Using CO2, that same 0.030 solid wire needs about 17V at 75 ipm to give that 35 amp output, 18V at 150 ipm for the 70 amp output, and 22V at 300 ipm for the 130 amp output.

Let's look at a 'typical' FCAW wire used in the 'small' machines. Lincoln NR-211-MP (E71T-11) in 0.035 size (diameter).

At 50 ipm and 14-15V you have about 30 amps.

At 70 ipm and 15-16V you have about 60 amps.

At 110 ipm and 16-17V you have about 115 amps.

At 150 ipm and 17-18V you have about 130 amps.

At 200 ipm and 18-19V you have about 155 amps.

At 275 ipm and 20-21V you have about 155 amps (wire is running at approx max current saturation and will not really get any more amperage no matter how much voltage and WFS you run).

All in the manual, or in this case the Welding Procedures section of the Lincoln catalog.

So with only two voltage adjustment settings, how close do you think you can get to the desired/proper welding parameters? And will those parameters be even close to what is needed to weld the thickness of metal you happen to be dealing with?

General welding rule-of-thumb is 1 amp per 0.001 material thickness (single pass welds).

So if the machine in use even has the guts/snot/power to run the parameters, that 0.025 solid wire GMAW and C25 gas will maybe be 'adequate' to weld about 14 gauge steel, the 0.030 wire maybe about 10-12 gauge material (about 1/8 inch thick).

That 0.035 FCAW NR-211-MP wire can maybe go to about 1/4 inch thick (multi-pass).

You have to use the right tools for the job. In this case the welder (machine) and the wire (size and type) and the parameters.

:beer:
 

e-tek

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Geeze Moonrise - I'm gonna copy that post and paste it to my welder!!

To sum up, if you want to do decent welding and it's not just a one-time thing, either get a Gas Mig with .025 ESAB or LINCOLN brand (quality) wire, or, if a one-time project, rent one. I rented a couple times way back when, but at $40/hr.....
 

MoonRise

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Geeze Moonrise - I'm gonna copy that post and paste it to my welder!!

To sum up, if you want to do decent welding and it's not just a one-time thing, either get a Gas Mig with .025 ESAB or LINCOLN brand (quality) wire, or, if a one-time project, rent one. I rented a couple times way back when, but at $40/hr.....

Like I mentioned, that's just info directly out of the Lincoln consumables catalog.

Go to the Lincoln website, and get all sorts of info there. Same at ESAB. Miller has some good 'general' welding info, not so much consumables specific stuff though.

And thanks. :beer:

Hey, Mrs. e-tek is back in the avatar! Nice pic. :rocker:

(btw, just where are those pics you 'promised' way-back-when of the Mrs. in a bikini and the Mini? At the time, I believe it was winter and in Canada, so I can sort-of understand her not really wanting to be in a swimsuit and all, but it's not winter now and it has been a while ... :evil: )
 

kc-steve

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Geeze Moonrise - I'm gonna copy that post and paste it to my welder!!

I remember Moonrise from another welding forum and he is always an encyclopedia of information. :)

One of these days I'm going to try to stick weld sheet metal. I've got an AC/DC Miller.

Steve
 
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K13

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The other thing that I don't see mentioned and I am not sure if you are aware of is when mig welding sheet metal you don't want to run a continuous bead but rather just do spot welds every inch or so, let them cool then come back and do more spot welds in between and so on until done. This will help contol the warping and also help with the burn through.
 

PCO6

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... and I rather enjoy gas welding.
I do too. I use mig as well but if I have good access to both sides of a panel I prefer hammer welding with no filler rod. If you can make your joint on the crown of a curve (like below) instead of along a flat spot it makes it a lot easier.

DSC_0284.jpg
 

Professur

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Flux core is pretty much skinny stick welding. For a lark, take a length of FC, pop it into your stick welder and have at it ... works just as well. It has it's place beside gas .. particularly with dirty metals .. but it's really a jack of all trades sort of thing. It's big feature is that you don't need to haul about a gas bottle ... but you pay for that in limitations. Personally, I try to stay no thinner than 16-18ga with FC. As said already ... FC tends to wind up on cheap machines and the limited abilities of one compound the limits of the other. Also, there is cheap FC. Going with the good stuff helps, just like using it on a good machine helps.
 

crewchief888

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all good advise above.

mig welding with flux core can be frustrating, but it can be done.

good wire seems to help, i have the best luck with lincoln wire


:beer:
 

NASTYZEN

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With a nice Oxy-Ace torch and a little practice, you can achieve almost tig like welds on sheet metal. That's how they used to do it back then. It's a dying art.
 
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crewchief888

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With a nice Oxy-Ace torch and a little practice, you can achieve almost tig like welds on sheet metal. That's how they used to do it back then. It's a dying art.

i agree :rocker:

i was out on a job a few years ago, and the customer was complaining about a cracked heat shield on the exhaust.
(this was a brand new rental unit)
he left while i was working, when he returned he was still complaining about the heat shield..

"what crack"
"uhhhh"
"i took care of it, no problem"
"i didnt see a welder on your truck"
"i took care of it, no problem"
"that looks good"

O/A torch and a coat hanger is all it took....

:beer:
 

FMC

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I do too. I use mig as well but if I have good access to both sides of a panel I prefer hammer welding with no filler rod. If you can make your joint on the crown of a curve (like below) instead of along a flat spot it makes it a lot easier.

wow! I believe I only know 4 or 5 others that can do this, thats how I was trained for sheet metal repair, usually when you say no filler rod people just kind of blank out, huh? but once mastered what better way? no extra metal to try and bury in the panel and once bumped and slapped its right where it should be, great to see this is still being passed along :D
 

PCO6

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FMC - Thanks! I'm glad to hear that you do proper hammer welding too. I was taught by an English panel beater named Colin Laing. I signed up for a community college auto restoration night course in Scarborough (Toronto) back in the early 80's. The original teacher Mike Lewis (NASTYZEN - I think you know Mike) had to bow out at the last minute and Colin filled in. He reduced the ciriculum to "hammer welding" only and that was fine with me.

He explained that the benefit of hammer welding is that when the weld is done without filler rod the two peices of metal truly become one. Using a third peice (the rod) makes it almost impossible to run through a wheeling machine. The rod would be felt everytime it hit the wheel and you would never get it perfectly smooth without grinding. We tried it for demonstration purposes and you could really feel what he explained to us.

The key is to use a fine neautral flame, go slow and planish the weld as you go. It's also good to pick your spots for the weld. I have cut away perfectly good metal in order to make a weld in a place that has a higher crown, corner, etc. Once you get the hang of it hammer welding (without filler rod!) is a very satisfying type of welding to do.
 
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NASTYZEN

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PC06, Mike Lewis or 'Mic' is one of the greats of the sheet metal guru's . I used to purchase my Harri- Kerri alu. flux from him. He had a source back in England. He was amazing to watch transform a bland piece of metal into art. I forget his helping hand's name, but I believe Mic taught him all he knew. If you could find him again, I'm sure he could let you sweep his shop while you watch him perform magic. Last I spoke to Mic he was in Oakville and shutting down his operation and retiring. 20 years ago....he must be panel beating in an other dimension by now..:)
 

PCO6

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PC06, Mike Lewis or 'Mic' is one of the greats of the sheet metal guru's .
NASTYZEN - I totally agree with that and I would be happy to sweep Mike's floors any day! He once showed me an interesting trick. When welding 2 sheets of aluminum together and in a situation where filler rod was necessary, he would take one of the sheets and shear off about 1/16 of an inch and use it for the rod. His point was that it was the exact same alloy and therefore the weld would be as good as it could be.

I know exactly who you mean but I can't remember his assistant's name either. From what I remember he was coming along very nicely and I am sure he has turned into a very good panel beater too.
 

MoonRise

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NASTYZEN - He once showed me an interesting trick. When welding 2 sheets of aluminum together and in a situation where filler rod was necessary, he would take one of the sheets and shear off about 1/16 of an inch and use it for the rod. His point was that it was the exact same alloy and therefore the weld would be as good as it could be.

Ummm, sometimes that 'trick' will work and sometimes it will backfire badly on you.

Some aluminum alloys really need a different alloy filler when welded in order to achive a compatible weld amalgamation and not have the weld bead just go and crack on you.

Specific example: (direct quote from Lincoln Electric "Aluminum GMAW Welding Guide")

(Page 7)

Silicon and Magnesium (6XXX series) This medium strength,
heat-treatable series, is primarily used in automotive, pipe,
railings, and structural extrusion applications. The 6XXX series is
prone to hot cracking, but this problem can be overcome by the
correct choice of joint and filler metal. Can be welded with either
5XXX or 4XXX series without cracking — adequate dilution of the
base alloys with selected filler wire is essential. A 4043 filler wire
is the most common for use with this series. 6XXX alloys should
never be welded autogenously, they will crack.
(emphasis added)

...

(Page 11)

6XXX alloys— These Al-Mg-Si alloys are primarily used for
extrusion alloys, although they can also often be found as sheet
and plate. The chemistry of these alloys makes them very sensitive
to hot short cracking. Autogenous welds (i.e., welds made
without adding filler metal) will almost always crack. This is why
6061 filler metal does not exist. If it did, welds made using it
would crack. Yet, these alloys are readily weldable using either
4043 or 5356 filler metal. Since the chemistry of 4043, Al with
5% Si, or 5356, Al with 5% Mg, is so different than that of 6061,
when either is mixed with 6061, the result is a weld with a crack
resistant chemistry.

(end quotes)

Welding aluminum is NOT like welding steel. The many different 'common' aluminum alloys available range from weldable, to weldable with 'special' considerations, to generally unweldable.

:beer:
 

NASTYZEN

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Moonrise, you quoted the wrong guy on that ol trick.:)

But it's true, that's what I've seen the old masters do. But most body work on alloy cars is anywhere from 1100 to utility 3003 grade any way, and they Oxy-Ace weld it so it stays soft to work it easier.
 

PCO6

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MoonRise - I'm a weekend welder with very little formal training and NONE in aluminum. I do know that welding aluminum is a LOT different compared to steel. The last time I tried aluminum was over 20 years ago and it wasn't pretty. One of my retirement goals is to at least become competent at it. :lol:

My experience with steel is that you can cut a sheet in 2 and weld it back together again without filler rod. I asked my panel beater friend if the same could be done with aluminum and he said yes. I watched him hammer weld (fuse) 2 peices of aluminum sheet together and "occasionally" add small amounts of the "rod" he sheared off of one of the 2 sheets. He also said that it is a lot easier to blow through aluminum than it is through steel and that's why the sheared off rod was handy. I knew all about blowing through aluminum sheet - that's pretty much all I did!

Although I got a bit lost on the details I see the point though of what you quoted. Again, for the most part I have learned the hard way. :)
 

R6 Racer

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I originally learned to weld sheet metal with O/A. Patching rusted out body panels in the body shop I apprenticed at back in the early 70's. Some of the old guys back then were real artists. I only wish I could do as good a job as those guys!

Steve
 

PCO6

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Steve - I learned in the early 70's too but from a couple of guys who were real hackers. I asked if using welding rod would be any better than coat hangers and they said ... "probably". I don't think had ever tried it though! :lol:
 
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