Welding Small/Thin Pieces

[blatterjr]

I've looked through all the welding threads, but have not found anything that hits my particular angle of information needs... so I'm making this post. If this is redundant (or in the wrong place) a mod can move this.

The Request

I'm looking to weld thin aluminum and steel (1/16 to 1/8 max) for a couple scale construction (RC) vehicle projects. I have almost no welding experience and am looking for recommendations on sources of information and equipment/accessories to push me in a direction.

While money is not the driving factor (never is in a hobby, right?) I'm looking more for the right process and solution to fabricate parts for my projects.

I have a small shop and do quite a bit of 3D printing (ABS/PETG/Composites/Resin), woodworking, etc. My machinist experience is minimal, but I have a small lathe and mill. Welding for my bigger components (<16-inch long typ.) is what's missing. If anything, simple is best and smaller is better if possible.

Thanks in advance!

 

[MoonRise]

Small, thin, 'delicate' pretty much says GTAW, aka TIG.

Aluminum GTAW means you need an AC capable machine. The steel GTAW means DC.

So you pretty much need an AC/DC TIG machine.

A skilled TIG welder can edge weld two razor blade edges together. Skilled is the operative word there.

Save up some bucks for the machine.

And you'll need to practice. And practice some more. And then more practice.

 

[Bodj Built]

You want a TIG setup, AC/DC, with 1/16" tungsten and 1/16" filler rod (er70 for steel, 4043 for aluminum will be sufficient for most things). A number 7 cup will cover you for everything you'll be doing, and you can get more cups as you learn that welding is awesome and you'll be doing it all the time hah.

I'm a big fan of my Lincoln Square Wave 200. I've had it for 5 years now and it's a great machine. I can do two razor blades (as mentioned above), and easily single pass 3/16".

 

[blatterjr]

Thank you... yes, I'd seen the TIG for aluminum and am presuming I'd need MIG for steel work, unless I can find the right multi-process machine (fit that's even a good thing.)

Definitely not afraid of ample practice... what will not be available is a formal learning process given covid restrictions, etc. so I'll be using whatever other resources I can to be safe and learn effectively.

 

[blatterjr]

You want a TIG setup, AC/DC, with 1/16" tungsten and 1/16" filler rod (er70 for steel, 4043 for aluminum will be sufficient for most things). A number 7 cup will cover you for everything you'll be doing, and you can get more cups as you learn that welding is awesome and you'll be doing it all the time hah.

I'm a big fan of my Lincoln Square Wave 200. I've had it for 5 years now and it's a great machine. I can do two razor blades (as mentioned above), and easily single pass 3/16".

Also good info, thanks! I may have come across the Lincoln 200 in my browsing and will check it out.

 

[strength_and_power]

With TIG, you can weld pretty much any material, you change your filler rod for the material. 4043 as mentioned above for AL. 70s6 for mild steel, 308 or 316 for stainless. The shielding gas ( argon), torch and tungsten all stay the same.
The term multiprocess can be a bit misleading. My Fronius Transsteel is a multi process, it does MIG, stick and DC scratch start TIG. I can’t TIG weld AL with it. With a multiprocess TIG/MIG machine, you will still have to have 2 gas cylinders, Argon and Argon/CO2. After switching cylinders and leads a few times, I decided it was easier to leave it set up as MIG and use another machine for TIG.
Pretty much all TIG welders can stick weld.
Weldpro has a 200 amp AC/DC TIG/stick machine with a CK worldwide torch on Amazon for $837. Ive heard many good things about it from friends who earn a living welding. Everlast makes some good machines as well.
For your listed needs, you will probably end up with an AC/DC TIG machine and a separate MIG machine.
The learning curve for MIG is a lot faster than TIG but for your stated needs, TIG is where you need to be. YouTube has thousands of videos teaching TIG, Welding Tips and Tricks is one of the best.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[blatterjr]

With TIG, you can weld pretty much any material, you change your filler rod for the material. 4043 as mentioned above for AL. 70s6 for mild steel, 308 or 316 for stainless. The shielding gas ( argon), torch and tungsten all stay the same.

Just so I'm clear, if the TIG can weld mild steel and stainless... if so, I could bypass MIG altogether, no?

Thanks for the response... are there any specific people/groups/channels that are better than others for an introduction? Youtube can be filled with garbage at times; just looking for some insight.

 

[Don1357]

You may want to consider brazing. Silver brazing for steel (if it can hold a bicycle together under a 300-pound person it can hold your RC car) and aluminum brazing rods for the aluminum pieces.

 

[pi_guy]

You can weld all material with the proper filler rod, you can braze and solder too.

I would suggest looking at Miller. Bought a machine in 78 sold it in the 90's for a little less than I paid for it. It is still working in a race shop here on LI. I have the Dynasty dx200 now. Along with a Multimatic 200 so I can mig aluminum.

 

[blatterjr]

You may want to consider brazing. Silver brazing for steel (if it can hold a bicycle together under a 300-pound person it can hold your RC car) and aluminum brazing rods for the aluminum pieces.

Don, I was under the impression that brazing was a surface application. If I have to grind components flat to paint or powder coat, would that undermine the integrity of the connection?

 

[blatterjr]

You can weld all material with the proper filler rod, you can braze and solder too.

I would suggest looking at Miller. Bought a machine in 78 sold it in the 90's for a little less than I paid for it. It is still working in a race shop here on LI. I have the Dynasty dx200 now. Along with a Multimatic 200 so I can mig aluminum.

I've not looked at the Miller machines but will put them on my list to research, thank you.

 

[MoonRise]

TIG can weld pretty much anything metal. With the proper procedures and filler metal and technique and skill.

Small and 'thin' items pretty much call out for the control and adjustment on the fly that a skilled TIG welder can use and apply to the weld being done.

You can also join some metals via soldering or brazing. Certainly valid techniques.

They both use a filler metal that melts at a temperature BELOW the melting point of the metal(s) being joined, unlike welding where the metal being joined melts and forms the joint. The difference between the two is the filler being used and the temperature that the filler melts, soldering filler melts below 840F and brazing filler melts at a temperature higher than that.

A few quick links from some google-fu about soldering versus brazing (and welding).

https://lucasmilhaupt.com/EN/Resource-Library/Metal-Joining-Brazing-vs-Silver-Soldering.htm

https://www.machinedesign.com/faste...ference-between-soldering-brazing-and-welding

https://ewi.org/should-you-solder-it-or-braze-it/

https://www.twi-global.com/technical-knowledge/faqs/welding-brazing-and-soldering

 

[blatterjr]

TIG can weld pretty much anything metal. With the proper procedures and filler metal and technique and skill.

Small and 'thin' items pretty much call out for the control and adjustment on the fly that a skilled TIG welder can use and apply to the weld being done.

You can also join some metals via soldering or brazing. Certainly valid techniques.

I'm not averse to seeing if brazing and soldering will work some aspects of my projects. Certainly sounds viable for aluminum and brass handrail fabrications, etc. The larger parts will need to be heavy and are under hydraulic pressure, so I think welding may be better, if only so I can grind, machine, finish after welding.

 

[Bodj Built]

Forget brazing. You want TIG. TIG can be used on every metal and bypass MIG. It's great to have a MIG machine, also, for parts that need to be done faster, fit up *****, etc. Seriously, the stuff I listed in my previous post is what you'll want for what you're asking to do. TIG has a TON of variables that can be overwhelming to a newer/hobby welder. The Square wave has enough features to be versatile, but not overwhelming.

 

[blatterjr]

Forget brazing. You want TIG. TIG can be used on every metal and bypass MIG. It's great to have a MIG machine, also, for parts that need to be done faster, fit up *****, etc. Seriously, the stuff I listed in my previous post is what you'll want for what you're asking to do. TIG has a TON of variables that can be overwhelming to a newer/hobby welder. The Square wave has enough features to be versatile, but not overwhelming.

TIG is where I'm focused, but I'd also look at brazing for very small items... think 3/32 square thin wall tube for handrails. I'd need to test that vs. small solid stock for durability.

I like the Lincoln 200 features though and it looks like a straight forward machine.

 

[king nero]

Another vote for TIG, but stay with the "good" brands. Cheaper power sources often have problems with keeping a stable arc at lower amperages, which is mainly what you'll be using...

 

[blatterjr]

Another vote for TIG, but stay with the "good" brands. Cheaper power sources often have problems with keeping a stable arc at lower amperages, which is mainly what you'll be using...

I'm familiar with Lincoln and Miller... what others are there, knowing there is a lot of subjectivity.

 

[DIY_Guy79]

I've looked through all the welding threads, but have not found anything that hits my particular angle of information needs... so I'm making this post. If this is redundant (or in the wrong place) a mod can move this.

The Request

I'm looking to weld thin aluminum and steel (1/16 to 1/8 max) for a couple scale construction (RC) vehicle projects. I have almost no welding experience and am looking for recommendations on sources of information and equipment/accessories to push me in a direction.

While money is not the driving factor (never is in a hobby, right?) I'm looking more for the right process and solution to fabricate parts for my projects.

I have a small shop and do quite a bit of 3D printing (ABS/PETG/Composites/Resin), woodworking, etc. My machinist experience is minimal, but I have a small lathe and mill. Welding for my bigger components (<16-inch long typ.) is what's missing. If anything, simple is best and smaller is better if possible.

Thanks in advance!

You can weld 1/16th to 1/8(even thinner than that) with mig And that is going to be much simpler than Tig that everyone is suggesting. You weld thin pieces with mig by "dobbing". Basically, you pull the trigger, get your puddle started, watch it as it cools, and just as you see it solidify, hit it again at the front of the puddle, and repeat ... continue on this way until you've filled your entire seam. If you're burning it out, turn the heat down a bit. I do this all the time. Something any welder has done in a professional setting at one point or another. I used to weld for a company where we'd be welding nothing but 1/16th stainless angle with 309L flux for days. Only way to weld it without burning it out is by dobbing.

A small 120 volt mig welder will work great, combine it with gasless wire and you've got an extremely simple rig that would be more than sufficient for your RC needs and much more. I have a Lincoln Weld Pack 100 I've used for years. They're cheap and readily available. Think I gave $250 for mine second hand and I'm pretty sure I overpaid lol. However, If I were to shop for a new cracker jack welder(nickname for 120V welders), I would find one with the ability to fine tune the voltage. On machines like the weld pack 100, you have strict settings, "A, B, C, & D" and nothing between. It would make life easier, especially on small gauge stuff to be able to fine tune your voltage output. But like I said, the Weld Pack 100 is still a great option and plenty capable. I've had & used mine for damn near everything under the sun for the last 15 years or so.

Sure you could go with Tig, but you said simple. And in my experience, it is head & shoulders the most difficult type of welding to learn. Tig requires two hands doing different things. Small controlled movements with each. It takes a lot of practice to master. Also, to my knowledge, there is no such thing as gasless Tig welding. So not only have you got to worry about keeping it on hand, you're going to use up more shop space. And I'm not entirely sure, but I dont know that a 120V Tig option exists, so that is something to keep in mind if you have limitations regarding access to 220V.

Another option, You could go with a machine that just does it all. Like the Vulcan Omnipro from Harbor Freight, which for Harbor Freight is a seriously good piece of equipment. This way you could just try it all and see what works for you. Think you gotta buy the Tig leads and pedal seperate though.

https://www.harborfreight.com/omnip...cess-welder-with-120240-volt-input-63621.html

One thing you do need to be weary of though, when welding thin gauge metal, if you're welding longer seams, the heat will easily & quickly warp your piece. Something like brazing with an oxy/acetylene torch would be a better option for stuff like that.

 

[Hammer1963]

You can weld 1/16th to 1/8(even thinner than that) with mig And that is going to be much simpler than Tig that everyone is suggesting. You weld thin pieces with mig by "dobbing". Basically, you pull the trigger, get your puddle started, watch it as it cools, and just as you see it solidify, hit it again at the front of the puddle, and repeat ... continue on this way until you've filled your entire seam. If you're burning it out, turn the heat down a bit. I do this all the time. Something any welder has done in a professional setting at one point or another. I used to weld for a company where we'd be welding nothing but 1/16th stainless angle with 309L flux for days. Only way to weld it without burning it out is by dobbing.

A small 120 volt mig welder will work great, combine it with gasless wire and you've got an extremely simple rig that would be more than sufficient for your RC needs and much more. I have a Lincoln Weld Pack 100 I've used for years. They're cheap and readily available. Think I gave $250 for mine second hand and I'm pretty sure I overpaid lol. However, If I were to shop for a new cracker jack welder(nickname for 120V welders), I would find one with the ability to fine tune the voltage. On machines like the weld pack 100, you have strict settings, "A, B, C, & D" and nothing between. It would make life easier, especially on small gauge stuff to be able to fine tune your voltage output. But like I said, the Weld Pack 100 is still a great option and plenty capable. I've had & used mine for damn near everything under the sun for the last 15 years or so.

Sure you could go with Tig, but you said simple. And in my experience, it is head & shoulders the most difficult type of welding to learn. Tig requires two hands doing different things. Small controlled movements with each. It takes a lot of practice to master. Also, to my knowledge, there is no such thing as gasless Tig welding. So not only have you got to worry about keeping it on hand, you're going to use up more shop space. And I'm not entirely sure, but I dont know that a 120V Tig option exists, so that is something to keep in mind if you have limitations regarding access to 220V.

Another option, You could go with a machine that just does it all. Like the Vulcan Omnipro from Harbor Freight, which for Harbor Freight is a seriously good piece of equipment. This way you could just try it all and see what works for you. Think you gotta buy the Tig leads and pedal seperate though.

https://www.harborfreight.com/omnip...cess-welder-with-120240-volt-input-63621.html

One thing you do need to be weary of though, when welding thin gauge metal, if you're welding longer seams, the heat will easily & quickly warp your piece. Something like brazing with an oxy/acetylene torch would be a better option for stuff like that.

You are correct on using a MIG for this job. Even with the aluminum, a spool gun will work for this job. It's all about technique and experience. I will second the vote on top end Vulcan machine. You can do anything you want at a reasonable cost.

 

[Bodj Built]

TIG is where I'm focused, but I'd also look at brazing for very small items... think 3/32 square thin wall tube for handrails. I'd need to test that vs. small solid stock for durability.

I like the Lincoln 200 features though and it looks like a straight forward machine.

Just a heads up, but you can braze with a tig welder. The key that'll help you out with TIG is using thin tungsten and thin filler rod. 1/16" for both and you'll be in good shape.

 

[blatterjr]

You can weld 1/16th to 1/8(even thinner than that) with mig And that is going to be much simpler than Tig that everyone is suggesting. You weld thin pieces with mig by "dobbing"...

Thanks for the response! ...I've not seen that technique explained before. The material will definitely be less than 1/8th at times. The process is going to dictate some of what I can and cannot do.

 

[blatterjr]

You are correct on using a MIG for this job. Even with the aluminum, a spool gun will work for this job. It's all about technique and experience. I will second the vote on top end Vulcan machine. You can do anything you want at a reasonable cost.

I'll take a look at the Vulcan machine as well. I've heard some dicey things about the HF machines, but it's been anecdotal so far.

 

[Bodj Built]

You can weld 1/16th to 1/8(even thinner than that) with mig And that is going to be much simpler than Tig that everyone is suggesting. You weld thin pieces with mig by "dobbing". Basically, you pull the trigger, get your puddle started, watch it as it cools, and just as you see it solidify, hit it again at the front of the puddle, and repeat ... continue on this way until you've filled your entire seam. If you're burning it out, turn the heat down a bit. I do this all the time. Something any welder has done in a professional setting at one point or another. I used to weld for a company where we'd be welding nothing but 1/16th stainless angle with 309L flux for days. Only way to weld it without burning it out is by dobbing.

A small 120 volt mig welder will work great, combine it with gasless wire and you've got an extremely simple rig that would be more than sufficient for your RC needs and much more. I have a Lincoln Weld Pack 100 I've used for years. They're cheap and readily available. Think I gave $250 for mine second hand and I'm pretty sure I overpaid lol. However, If I were to shop for a new cracker jack welder(nickname for 120V welders), I would find one with the ability to fine tune the voltage. On machines like the weld pack 100, you have strict settings, "A, B, C, & D" and nothing between. It would make life easier, especially on small gauge stuff to be able to fine tune your voltage output. But like I said, the Weld Pack 100 is still a great option and plenty capable. I've had & used mine for damn near everything under the sun for the last 15 years or so.

Sure you could go with Tig, but you said simple. And in my experience, it is head & shoulders the most difficult type of welding to learn. Tig requires two hands doing different things. Small controlled movements with each. It takes a lot of practice to master. Also, to my knowledge, there is no such thing as gasless Tig welding. So not only have you got to worry about keeping it on hand, you're going to use up more shop space. And I'm not entirely sure, but I dont know that a 120V Tig option exists, so that is something to keep in mind if you have limitations regarding access to 220V.

Another option, You could go with a machine that just does it all. Like the Vulcan Omnipro from Harbor Freight, which for Harbor Freight is a seriously good piece of equipment. This way you could just try it all and see what works for you. Think you gotta buy the Tig leads and pedal seperate though.

https://www.harborfreight.com/omnip...cess-welder-with-120240-volt-input-63621.html

One thing you do need to be weary of though, when welding thin gauge metal, if you're welding longer seams, the heat will easily & quickly warp your piece. Something like brazing with an oxy/acetylene torch would be a better option for stuff like that.

For regular sized material, in thin wall (1.5x1.5" square tube, .063" wall), this works well. I'm guessing he's going to be doing stuff like using 1/8" welding rod to form models of handrails and stuff like that, and he wants a smoother finish. Dobbing on a weld where one tack is large enough to cover the entire joint, will probably yield a big lump of a cold weld, or burning through the material with that one trigger pull (too cold vs too hot). I still say go for the TIG

 

[BD1]

You may want to check this Weldingweb site.

https://weldingweb.com/vbb/forum.php

 

[DIY_Guy79]

Oh, I almost forgot, here is a cool and simple option for welding aluminum. No welder required and you can use a regular old propane torch on thin stuff:

 

[DIY_Guy79]

I'll take a look at the Vulcan machine as well. I've heard some dicey things about the HF machines, but it's been anecdotal so far.

About the best in depth review you'll find on them, right here. And just fyi, if you're unfamiliar, AvE is no fan of HF products.

 

[Don1357]

Don, I was under the impression that brazing was a surface application. If I have to grind components flat to paint or powder coat, would that undermine the integrity of the connection?

Look up pictures on bicycle silver brazing so you get an idea of the technique involved. Keep in mind that fillet brazing is exaggerated in bicycles for aesthetic purposes.

With a strength rated around 40,000~70,000 PSI it doesn't take much to braze something together.

 

[blatterjr]

About the best in depth review you'll find on them, right here. And just fyi, if you're unfamiliar, AvE is no fan of HF products.

Yes, this much I know.. I'm a fan of AvE though, so we'll see what he has to say. =P

 

[blatterjr]

Look up pictures on bicycle silver brazing so you get an idea of the technique involved. Keep in mind that fillet brazing is exaggerated in bicycles for aesthetic purposes.

With a strength rated around 40,000~70,000 PSI it doesn't take much to braze something together.

Noted, I'll definitely take a look.

 

[blatterjr]

You may want to check this Weldingweb site.

https://weldingweb.com/vbb/forum.php

Thanks, I did stumble across the forum but have not dove in yet.

 

[jsaw]

Is this thin enough? Tig welding aluminum foil

 

[blatterjr]

Is this thin enough? Tig welding aluminum foil

He's right, that IS a neat trick!

 

[Fix Until Broke]

Another vote for TIG - once you learn that, you'll be better at every other welding process should you choose to learn them. This is a hobby, not a production process - take your time and you'll be very happy with this skill you've learned.

One challenge I've had with welding really thin aluminum (radiator/AC condenser tubes) is the initial arc start. The welder will have a 10A (for example) starting current to get the arc initiated, then back down to where you control it with your foot. This caused much frustration because I could run the welder down at 4-5 amps however the initial arc start would blow a hole in what I was trying to weld. One way around this is to start the arc on a thicker piece of scrap that you set next to what you want to weld and then once it's settled down "slide" the arc off onto the piece you want to weld. Kind of a PITA but it works.

Some welders have this as a variable that you can change, others do not. You need to read the owners/operators manual to find out as it's not a common specification.

DC for steel/stainless doesn't seem to have the initial arc start problem.

Minimum rated current is also something to look at - all the marketing is focused on max power, but for what you're doing, a 75A machine would be sufficient. Some will only go down to 5A or 10A which is not low enough.

As mentioned above - small tungsten, small filler (can use 0.030" wire for MIG as filler). Also a small torch/head is really handy for this work. CKWorldwide makes some micro torches that are about the size of a dentist's drill head. Otherwise a 20 series is a very common torch.

 

[SlappyWhite]

Silver solder will likely do the trick for the steel. Real silver solder (~50% silver). If nothing else the start-up costs are cheap (propane torch), flux, but the silver solder is a little pricey.