Toolhorder
Well-known member
Will it be a problem. My house has older wiring with 2 prong outlets no ground circuits. Can I still just plug in my 110 welder and be good to go?
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Welding without a ground circuit (old house)
- Thread starter Toolhorder
- Start date
sberry
Banned
Will it work,,, yes but its never a good idea to plug 3 wire grounded equipment in to 2 wire systems,,, you could fix this with the addition of ground fault interupters. It doesnt have anything to do with welding, just 3 wire equipment in general.
OP
Toolhorder
Well-known member
Will it work,,, yes but its never a good idea to plug 3 wire grounded equipment in to 2 wire systems,,, you could fix this with the addition of ground fault interupters. It doesnt have anything to do with welding, just 3 wire equipment in general.
I'm just worried if the welder has an internal problem will I become the ground. Not much I can do about the wiring at this time but I'd like to do some welding. Looking at getting a Miller 211
Nealcrenshaw
Well-known member
GFCI outlet Is your friend!
kald
Well-known member
I'm just worried if the welder has an internal problem will I become the ground. Not much I can do about the wiring at this time but I'd like to do some welding. Looking at getting a Miller 211
I wouldn't run a newer welder without a ground. If it's like the stuff I work on, industrial battery chargers, then the ground is important to help protect the pc boards.
BD1
Well-known member
I would replace old outlet with new grounded one. Then drive in a ground rod
and wire it to the outlet. Isn't your panel grounded ? Do you have romex or
BX ? I would run a dedicated 220 circuit for the new machine.
and wire it to the outlet. Isn't your panel grounded ? Do you have romex or
BX ? I would run a dedicated 220 circuit for the new machine.
Ryf
Well-known member
should you ground it? yeah.. but that said, any 220v welder doesnt have one, its a 3 prong, so no ground there. my bigger concern would be that your old wiring might not be up for the 20amp draw of most if not all 110v welders. I would add a ground rod and run a new 12/2 line on a 20amp circuit for the welder if its 110v.
do you know what kind of 2 wire you system you have? wires on pegs or cloth wrapped etc?
do you know what kind of 2 wire you system you have? wires on pegs or cloth wrapped etc?
should you ground it? yeah.. but that said, any 220v welder doesnt have one, its a 3 prong, so no ground there. my bigger concern would be that your old wiring might not be up for the 20amp draw of most if not all 110v welders. I would add a ground rod and run a new 12/2 line on a 20amp circuit for the welder if its 110v.
do you know what kind of 2 wire you system you have? wires on pegs or cloth wrapped etc?
Ummm, no.
A 'standard' USA 220-240 V three-prong 'welding outlet' (NEMA 6-50R) has two 'hot' legs/wires/prongs and one GROUND leg/wire/prong.
As to the concern about having 'enough' power out of the existing outlet to run the welder, yes that is a valid concern.
Run a GFCI outlet/receptacle (as mentioned) and you will be about as 'safe' as you can get, electricity-wise, with your old house and wiring.
Just RTFM about how much power the machine really 'needs' in order to run at anything other than really low output power.
Most of the 120V welders really call for using them on a "dedicated" circuit, or at the very least making sure there is NOTHING else running on the circuit you are trying to use for the welder. And don't try and run it on a 'long' circuit (lots of wire between the outlet the welder is plugged into and the breaker panel, all that 'thin' wire leads to a bunch of voltage loss in the wiring which means the machine doesn't really run 'right' and then the breaker trips as well when you turn up the machine to higher power).
I've done it this way as well combined with a GFCI.I would replace old outlet with new grounded one. Then drive in a ground rod
and wire it to the outlet.
Assuming the outlet is in an exterior wall, it will make it easier to do this (just drill a hole for the wire, and seal with caulk once the wire is installed).
kmacht
Well-known member
I'm just worried if the welder has an internal problem will I become the ground. Not much I can do about the wiring at this time but I'd like to do some welding. Looking at getting a Miller 211
If you can afford a $1000 welder you can afford to keep yourself and your family safe and hire an electician to start running some grounded outlets through your house.
Keith
Ryf
Well-known member
Ummm, no.
A 'standard' USA 220-240 V three-prong 'welding outlet' (NEMA 6-50R) has two 'hot' legs/wires/prongs and one GROUND leg/wire/prong.
As to the concern about having 'enough' power out of the existing outlet to run the welder, yes that is a valid concern.
one leg back to the box is one leg back to the box, neutral and ground go to the same lugs in the box, you can change the name but it doesn't terminate to anywhere but the same neutral and ground bank in the box. ground is being used as neutral on 3 wire welders plugs, it allows the circuit to complete to run in some systems. a ground isn't used as neutral . common sense says if its part of the circuit its neutral . The ground wire, if used, is to tie the equipment case being powered to ground if for any reason the hot voltages in the equipment gets shorted to the case. That will blow the fuses. its not intended to carry current, which is why its not usually shielded in the jacket.
the way your thinking you can disconnect the ground wire and it will still work, depending on the machine it may or it may not, so it can be part of the circuit thus being neutral or ground, for safeties sake you shouldn't assume its ground. some 240v appliances use 120v of the 240v to make smaller circuits work, and thats why they make 240v 4 wire now, so you have both a neutral and a ground.
a good example of this is a dual voltage welder and plasma cutters, some of these use 1 leg only to do the basic functions, that does make that third post neutral. since it can be its better to assume neutral than ground.
If you can afford a $1000 welder you can afford to keep yourself and your family safe and hire an electician to start running some grounded outlets through your house.
Keith
Maybe it's a rental and it's not his wiring to replace?
Would a GFCI outlet be a benefit?
Can the two wire outlet be replaced with a standard three prong outlet and the ground run to a dedicated ground rod for that outlet?
OP
Toolhorder
Well-known member
It's just a ground for if the chassis of the appliance goes hot. I doubt it will be a problem. Everything else works I plug into the outlet. I did run a Lincoln 135 on the outlet to show someone it worked before selling it and it worked just fine.
sberry
Banned
Maybe it's a rental and it's not his wiring to replace?
Would a GFCI outlet be a benefit?
Can the two wire outlet be replaced with a standard three prong outlet and the ground run to a dedicated ground rod for that outlet?
NO, again, nothing connected to ground rods unless they are connected to the electric system. Ground rod irrelevent with gfci for the most part.
sberry
Banned
No, it iss not a good examplea good example of this is a dual voltage welder and plasma cutters, some of these use 1 leg only to do the basic functions, that does make that third post neutral. since it can be its better to assume neutral than ground.
And this is correct.. The dual voltage machine are wired diufferent, different supply circuit, a 120 is connected to grounded conductor ( meutral in your terms) and a grounded conductor is different thasn a ground wire. These land in the same place ONLY in the main panel. Tool, yes the ground is for internal fault protection, has nothing to do with the operation of this machine.the way your thinking you can disconnect the ground wire and it will still work
Alchymist
Well-known member
I would replace old outlet with new grounded one. Then drive in a ground rod
and wire it to the outlet. Isn't your panel grounded ? Do you have romex or
BX ? I would run a dedicated 220 circuit for the new machine.
I agree with BD1. Drive a ground rod and run your own ground is the cheapest safest route.
one leg back to the box is one leg back to the box, neutral and ground go to the same lugs in the box, you can change the name but it doesn't terminate to anywhere but the same neutral and ground bank in the box. ground is being used as neutral on 3 wire welders plugs, it allows the circuit to complete to run in some systems. a ground isn't used as neutral . common sense says if its part of the circuit its neutral . The ground wire, if used, is to tie the equipment case being powered to ground if for any reason the hot voltages in the equipment gets shorted to the case. That will blow the fuses. its not intended to carry current, which is why its not usually shielded in the jacket.
the way your thinking you can disconnect the ground wire and it will still work, depending on the machine it may or it may not, so it can be part of the circuit thus being neutral or ground, for safeties sake you shouldn't assume its ground. some 240v appliances use 120v of the 240v to make smaller circuits work, and thats why they make 240v 4 wire now, so you have both a neutral and a ground.
a good example of this is a dual voltage welder and plasma cutters, some of these use 1 leg only to do the basic functions, that does make that third post neutral. since it can be its better to assume neutral than ground.
So much mis-information here in just a few posts. Driving a ground rod and grounding the appliance will NOT protect one in case of an internal fault. Driven rods are high enough impedance that the fault will most likely not clear the overcurrent device. There is a reason for that solid ground back to the panel.
And that ground wire (EGC) is never to be used as a neutral. If 120 volt loads are present in a welder or other 240 volt device, 4 wires are used. No current should flow in the ground conductor except in case of a fault.
And yes, GFCI's are your friend; 240 volt high current ones tend to get pricey. Best bet all around is a proper 4 wire circuit.