Well storage tank

[Hobby_Man22]

So carrie underwoods garage caught on fire and it sounds like she had a 10,000 gallon storage tank at the house that the fire fighters tapped into to put the fire out. Anyways, I was thinking today their has a be a better way than my old style bladderless air volume control valve well tank that kicks on every time you use 5 gallons of water. Why not add a big storage tank where the pump can run once a day for 15 minutes or so and pump the 300 gallons or whatever it is I use per day. Opinions?

 

[kbuhagiar]

So carrie underwoods garage caught on fire and it sounds like she had a 10,000 gallon storage tank at the house that the fire fighters tapped into to put the fire out. Anyways, I was thinking today their has a be a better way than my old style bladderless air volume control valve well tank that kicks on every time you use 5 gallons of water. Why not add a big storage tank where the pump can run once a day for 15 minutes or so and pump the 300 gallons or whatever it is I use per day. Opinions?

You are correct, and it is a method widely used throughout the world to alleviate low water pressure problems and/or reduce wear and tear on water pumps.

My Dad lives on the island of Malta in Europe and just last year we just replaced the old metal 300-gallon water storage tank on his roof with a new polypropylene one that should last fifty years or so. The government water service on the island has very low delivery pressure (by design, as a way to control waste, as fresh water is a precious resource here), so everyone has some version of this system. It's basically a huge tank with a fill valve and float shutoff like the inside of a toilet tank.

Voila! With the help of gravity you have greatly increased water pressure whenever you need it, and the water trickles in and keeps the tank full. It's beautiful in its simplicity.

 

[nafterclifen]

500-gallon water storage tank on his roof

That's ALOT of weight on a roof. I'm assuming it was constructed with this provision during the build? Or modified after?

 

[mike93lx]

What do you gain by pumping once a day over when needed?

How about the infrastructure to support the storage system and ensure that it stays healthy? What happens when you are away for a week and bacteria has a chance to develop?

If you don't have limited access to water or a need to access huge amounts very quickly, I don't see a reason to deviate from the standard pressure tank setup

 

[cannuck]

In our rural area we have an extensive "drip feed" system that each user pays through the nose to connect into and pumps into a surge tank in the couple thousand gallon range.

 

[kbuhagiar]

That's ALOT of weight on a roof. I'm assuming it was constructed with this provision during the build? Or modified after?

Houses in Malta aren't like what we are familiar with here in the USA; they are flat-roofed and constructed of concrete and limestone blocks. They're basically all big concrete pedestals with doors and windows (Think of Israel or Turkey but with more charm and less violence). And they all have the same kind of tanks.

(Full disclosure - I may have overstated the capacity at 500 gallons. I have since spoken to a cousin on the island and he thinks it is closer to 300 gallons. I have edited my original post to reflect this.)

Typical Maltese rooftop - this is obviously a multi-tenant building:

 

[Rst277]

Very common everywhere that the water will not freeze. Not that useful in North America.

 

[Jackfre]

Sure it can be done, but spendy. I had a place years ago with a storage tank. Securing it from pests and rodents was an issue. Also, in TX how warm do you want your cold water supply to be?

 

[larry_g]

You can sure do what you desire. However if you look at the system from an energy standpoint it is going to take ~the same energy to move the water from the well to the tank that is raised above your point of use to get water flow at the pressure you desire. Now if you go with a wind mill to move the water then you energy costs are low and you might recover the investment in the new system. If you go with an in ground storage tank you still have to get a pump to pressurize the water for use.

lg
no neat sig line

 

[rlitman]

Very common everywhere that the water will not freeze. Not that useful in North America.

I guess you haven't seen rooftops in New York City. Frost is less of an issue with wooden tanks that are big enough to not freeze through.

 

[sjvicker]

Your first question to answer is if you want that reserve capacity for fire fighting purposes. If you're in an area where there is a risk of wildfires and not having power available to use your own well is a concern then its a worthwhile consideration.

IMO we all need to become a bit more self sufficient and prepared for wildfires. I'm in a very wooded area and I'm planning metal roofs and siding as well as focusing on clearing undergrowth and having a good barrier of open space around my buildings. I've considered going as far as adding sprinklers on my roof since the effort/cost would be marginal if I plan it in early.

 

[minke]

I wonder if water main breaks would be less frequent.
I wonder if water main breaks would be less violent. I'm picturing the news videos from Atlanta a few weeks ago.

 

[Rst277]

I guess you haven't seen rooftops in New York City. Frost is less of an issue with wooden tanks that are big enough to not freeze through.

I was thinking of that cold snap a couple of years ago in the southern US where water heaters are in unheated garages and everyone's plumbing froze. Few places in Canada do not have below zero temps so a non starter up here.

 

[manwithtools]

Very common everywhere that the water will not freeze. Not that useful in North America.

Those tanks are very common in many South Western states with fire prone rural locations. They serve as an on premises water storage tank for fire fighting, also they can vastly extend the life of a submissible well pump. Our well in San Diego county was 900' deep with a 10,000 gallon storage tank and a five HP submersible pump. The float arrangement in the tank did not call for water from the well until it needed at least 500 gallons. This functionality prevents "short cycling" the submersible pump, which can shorten the pumps life.

The output of thank to the house plumbing included 2 80 gallon bladder tanks and a 2hp booster pump which provided the correct pressure to the house pluming. If there was ever any issues with the booster pump, it as right there on the equipment pad, which would make repair / removal / replacement very easy and economical.

 

[Jacko264]

Your first question to answer is if you want that reserve capacity for fire fighting purposes. If you're in an area where there is a risk of wildfires and not having power available to use your own well is a concern then its a worthwhile consideration.

IMO we all need to become a bit more self sufficient and prepared for wildfires. I'm in a very wooded area and I'm planning metal roofs and siding as well as focusing on clearing undergrowth and having a good barrier of open space around my buildings. I've considered going as far as adding sprinklers on my roof since the effort/cost would be marginal if I plan it in early.

I watch home Stead rescue on sky tv there was a program doing exactly what you are considering doing one thing they did was put steel sheeting right down to the floor so no sparks could get under the house .
they also put sprinklers all around the house
this program may interest you
Graham

 

[Hobby_Man22]

I watch home Stead rescue on sky tv there was a program doing exactly what you are considering doing one thing they did was put steel sheeting right down to the floor so no sparks could get under the house .
they also put sprinklers all around the house
this program may interest you
Graham

Makes me wonder if they have a special hose connection. Or maybe they just opened an access port at the top and stuck a hose in to pump from?

 

[manwithtools]

Makes me wonder if they have a special hose connection. Or maybe they just opened an access port at the top and stuck a hose in to pump from?

They do not have a special connection. Its a fire hydrant connection. There are common sizes of hose. I think ours had 2.5" and 4" hose connections.

 

[American Locomotive]

Nothing is preventing you from getting a giant tank with a float switch that you well can pump up once a day. The problem is you need the water to be pressurized.

Your two options are then:
1) Raise the tank up on stilts. If you want 50 PSI of water, your tank will need to be 117 feet above your house.
2) Have a pump that feeds a pressure tank, pumping off your main tank. Right back to where you started.

 

[jblnut]

Not exactly for firefighting or drinking water purposes but pallet racking makes for an easy to elevate lots of water. That 1,500gal tank has enough pressure that it'll run 500gal or so into my sprayer before I get the rest of the chem into the cones and ready to get pumped in. It's a fantastic upgrade over having all the tanks on the ground and having to constantly pump things around.

 

[jblnut]

Nothing is preventing you from getting a giant tank with a float switch that you well can pump up once a day. The problem is you need the water to be pressurized.

Your two options are then:
1) Raise the tank up on stilts. If you want 50 PSI of water, your tank will need to be 117 feet above your house.
2) Have a pump that feeds a pressure tank, pumping off your main tank. Right back to where you started.

Lots and lots of dairy farms around us have thousands of gallons of above or underground storage so they can fill at night and draw from them during the day when the cattle drink more water. It works amazingly well but you'll need at least two pumps to make it work of course.

 

[chris142]

our house is fed by a 500 or so gallon steel tank thats 1/2 air and 1/2 water( roughly). There is a pressure switch on the tank. When the water is low,pressure is low (25 psi) and the pressure switch turns the pump on. When it reaches 40 psi it shuts the pump off. It uses about 200 gallons between low and full so the pump normally only comes on 1-2 times a day.

The tank was there when my dad bought the place 50 years ago. I can get a pic later if anyone is interested.

 

[My Old Tools]

We have an 800 gallon air over water pressure tank on our well that serves 8 homes. You get about 30% of that with any pressure.

 

[ericm]

Your first question to answer is if you want that reserve capacity for fire fighting purposes. If you're in an area where there is a risk of wildfires and not having power available to use your own well is a concern then its a worthwhile consideration.

In my part of California we're required to have a large tank connected to a 4" hydrant with positive pressure (the tank is above the hydrant). This is so fire trucks can pull water out of the tank to fight fires. My tank's 10,000 gallons and feeds the house and hydrant. It's 150ft higher than the house so the pressure at the house is 65 psi.

Newer rules in my county require TWO tanks, one which only serves the hydrant and one which serves the house. The idea is to prevent backwash from the fire truck contaminating your water supply but 1) the fire trucks I worked on don't pump backwards, 2) they don't pump backwards at 65 psi and 3) fire fighters here usually use a garden hose to top off the truck's tank while they're stationed at a house during a forest fire so they can roll at a moments notice without disconnecting a hose. A backflow prevention valve would cost a lot less than a complete second tank and water line but my county likes to require the most expensive solution possible.

(the hydrant is useful for a city truck that's come to put out your house that's on fire but the wildland fire crews usually don't use them).

In an area without these rules the first thing to check is that fire services will even use a water source that you provide, and if the answer is yes the second is how they'd like to have it presented. It'd be a shame to build something that they won't use.

IMO we all need to become a bit more self sufficient and prepared for wildfires. I'm in a very wooded area and I'm planning metal roofs and siding as well as focusing on clearing undergrowth and having a good barrier of open space around my buildings. I've considered going as far as adding sprinklers on my roof since the effort/cost would be marginal if I plan it in early.

Check out the WEEDS sprinkler system (https://www.mbartek.com/weeds-info). Sprinklers in the obvious location on the top of the roof are mostly useless. You also have to be there at the right time to turn the things on, which is a problem since if you have any sense at all you'll be evacuated long before the fire comes. So they're only useful in the unlikely and unfortunate case where you're trapped at your house. Still, the WEEDS system has saved some houses. My house in California has sprinklers on the top of the roof in the obvious and wrong location, done by the previous owner.

 

[chris142]

our house is fed by a 500 or so gallon steel tank thats 1/2 air and 1/2 water( roughly). There is a pressure switch on the tank. When the water is low,pressure is low (25 psi) and the pressure switch turns the pump on. When it reaches 40 psi it shuts the pump off. It uses about 200 gallons between low and full so the pump normally only comes on 1-2 times a day.

The tank was there when my dad bought the place 50 years ago. I can get a pic later if anyone is interested.

 

[captain14]

They do not have a special connection. Its a fire hydrant connection. There are common sizes of hose. I think ours had 2.5" and 4" hose connections.

Redirect Notice

Here’s a diagram of how a dry hydrant works. The engine (pumper) will draft (pull suction) via the hydrant to “pull” the water from the underground tank to use for firefighting. At some point the homeowner will have to get the tank refilled.

We have dry hydrants in areas with static water sources (lakes, etc) and actual underground tanks that are on public/private land.

It’s a whole lot easier to connect to a dry hydrant than having to place multiple hard sleeves with a strainer in a static water source.

The reports stated that multiple units responded.

They would also operate tanker shuttles to drop water at the fire-ground.

A static water source is actually considered more dependable than pressurized water mains.

 

[Sumboodie]

Cycle stop valve

 

[Sumboodie]

Not exactly for firefighting or drinking water purposes but pallet racking makes for an easy to elevate lots of water. That 1,500gal tank has enough pressure that it'll run 500gal or so into my sprayer before I get the rest of the chem into the cones and ready to get pumped in. It's a fantastic upgrade over having all the tanks on the ground and having to constantly pump things around.

Have that racking at work, can only put 2500lbs per level on it.
Totes are about that each.

 

[dcg9381]

Cycle stop valve

This is what you want if you'd like to get away from the traditional large expansion tank. It's great, as is their "pump saver".

Someone told me that in certain parts of CA, if you put in a pool, you have to have a "tap" so the FD can use it as emergency water? I did see a few pools with the tap, so maybe that's a thing.

There is no local water supply here either and a high wildfire risk. They usually roll several tanked trucks to any call for a wildfire. None of us have an easy way to hook up an FD pump that I know about... Unless they can drop a hose in the top of a 12' high tank...

 

[Fav Onefour]

Interesting idea with water storage. Isn't that the premise of water towers?
If it is an option using gravity would be a nice option. Big fires generally also mean losing power. Big storage tanks won't do much if there is no way to move the water.
I wonder what type of system Carrie had in her home?
Buddy that lives in the boonies has some kind of simple fire hose connected to his pool. It runs off the existing pool pumps and I guess it's a matter of turning on the pumps and switching a couple valves. (The home has full load backup power so grid problems wouldn't stop the pumps.) The setup also has hookups for fire crews. The local fire department puts a sign by the home to indicate that it has the pool coupler system. It sounded like the price was pretty reasonable for the setup.

 

[mike93lx]

@chris142 has it always been a watermelon or do you ever change it up?

 

[jblnut]

Have that racking at work, can only put 2500lbs per level on it.
Totes are about that each.

Not all pallet racking is exactly the same. This stuff is rated at 8,000lbs per shelf and there are two sets of uprights/shelving so it’s plenty strong to hold the 12,000lbs of water up there. It’s been filled and emptied 15ish times so far this year with no issues.

 

[manwithtools]

Redirect Notice

Here’s a diagram of how a dry hydrant works. The engine (pumper) will draft (pull suction) via the hydrant to “pull” the water from the underground tank to use for firefighting. At some point the homeowner will have to get the tank refilled.

We have dry hydrants in areas with static water sources (lakes, etc) and actual underground tanks that are on public/private land.

It’s a whole lot easier to connect to a dry hydrant than having to place multiple hard sleeves with a strainer in a static water source.

The reports stated that multiple units responded.

They would also operate tanker shuttles to drop water at the fire-ground.

A static water source is actually considered more dependable than pressurized water mains.

It's different in each area of the country. In our case in CA, our storage tank was at the top of the driveway and a bit higher than the house. About 30 feet down the drive from the tank (and about 8 feet blow tank bottom) was a conventional hydrant fitting. This provides enough head pressure that there is no need for a dry hydrant arrangement, unless of course more flow was needed by the pumper.

What you describe is for water extraction below the pumper. In So Cal the design is almost always to draw from the bottom of the tank for FD water use. There was no need for us to get the tank refilled. It was simply a part of the well equipment and was full (within 500 gallons) at all times.

 

[tez929rr]

Common here. We have a 5000 gallon concrete tank that supplies the buildings and a 1500 gallon tank at our windmill to supply a live stock trough on a different well. The big advantage is if your well pump quits working you have a useful water supply until it gets fixed. Nothing has ever frozen at either tank even in the big freeze we had in 2021. Rural subdivisions here have to have storage of 10,000 to 20,000 gallons for firefighting depending on the number of homes. Static sources with 4” fire fittings. Most home setups have 2.5 inch fire fittings and can make a big difference compared to us having to haul water in water tenders. We bring 3500 gallons between our engine and water tender and that’s not a big supply for a structure fire.

 

[dcg9381]

Interesting idea with water storage. Isn't that the premise of water towers?

Maybe. But they are tall. A 10' tank is going to be 4.3 psi of pressure at the bottom (when full) and rapidly drops. Can't rely on that for "hose" level pressure.

If it is an option using gravity would be a nice option. Big fires generally also mean losing power. Big storage tanks won't do much if there is no way to move the water.

Fire department has trucks with pumps and my guess is their pressure output is really high. All they need is a water source (and hopefully the right fitting) that can supply the volume.

It runs off the existing pool pumps and I guess it's a matter of turning on the pumps and switching a couple valves. (The home has full load backup power so grid problems wouldn't stop the pumps.) The setup also has hookups for fire crews. The local fire department puts a sign by the home to indicate that it has the pool coupler system. It sounded like the price was pretty reasonable for the setup.

I like the idea of leveraging the pool pump, but in a fire, I'd expect things to be offline downstream of any panel.

 

[My Old Tools]

If you have a sufficient water source, look at dry hydrants.

Dry Hydrants: An Overview | Dixon

For people who live in rural areas without access to a pressurized fire hydrant system, dry hydrants can be a lifesaver—literally. A dry hydrant allows firefighters to tap a reliable water source like a lake, pond, or stream—to fight a fire without using a traditional fire hydrant.

dixonvalve.com

 

[CraigStu]

I think it would be a LOT easier to get a bladder type tank to replace you existing tank. We have had that at two houses and the system worked fine.

 

[Sumboodie]

Not all pallet racking is exactly the same. This stuff is rated at 8,000lbs per shelf and there are two sets of uprights/shelving so it’s plenty strong to hold the 12,000lbs of water up there. It’s been filled and emptied 15ish times so far this year with no issues.

10-4.

I know a guy that was crushed by pallet racking that failed, so guess I'm a bit nervous about them having heavy weight.

 

[reader2580]

I am guessing the reason for the 10,000 gallon tank is due to fire sprinklers and no city water. I have been at buildings with sprinklers and no city water that had a 10,000 gallon tank in case of a fire.

 

[ericm]

I am guessing the reason for the 10,000 gallon tank is due to fire sprinklers and no city water.

Well water, no internal fire sprinklers but some roof sprinklers. The rules in effect when the system was installed required at least 5000 gallons for a house this size using a combined house and hydrant tank. The builder put in a 10k tank. He didn't say the size was for the roof sprinklers when we bought the place from him. Given how things were done I suspect he got a deal on the tank.

The current rules put the internal fire sprinklers on the house tank of the water system, with only the hydrant on the other tank.

 

[Beemer]

I designed a house sized water tank at our airport years ago. It took quite a bit of reinforced concrete.
Lets see, 10 feet of water exerts over 600 psf in every direction at the bottom. That's about 18 times what 10 feet soil exerts against a retaining wall so a water tank is a big deal.