well water pressure problem

[billconner]

Turn on any spigot in house, hot or cold, runs fine for a moment, then slows to a small stream. Same symptom at drain valve before below gauge. It was near 40 but dropped fast like pressure.

Best I can find is turn off pump power, close ball valve to not drain whole house, drain the tank, and test pressure. If much below 30, add air. Restore.

Before I buy a transfer pump in morning (basement, no drain), does that make like right first step? Can I use a tire gauge to measure pressure or do I need a dual type?

Never done anything like this so make no assumptions.

 

[couch67]

hi yes I think the bladder in the tank may be shot, if this is a sudden issue. You can use a tire gauge to measure the air pressure. If any water comes out that side you know its been compromised.

 

[22-W]

There should be 2 or 3 psi less air charge than the cut-in pressure of the pressure switch. Tank has to be empty of water to check.

 

[mike93lx]

Sounds like the pressure tank is bad

 

[billconner]

hi yes I think the bladder in the tank may be shot, if this is a sudden issue. You can use a tire gauge to measure the air pressure. If any water comes out that side you know its been compromised.

No water came out.

 

[billconner]

There should be 2 or 3 psi less air charge than the cut-in pressure of the pressure switch. Tank has to be empty of water to check.

I thought it was just under 30. I assume cut off should be 40 but how would I know?

I was out of town but my wife said it maybe happened over several hours today.

Seems like it's worth this exercise to based on what I find on line.

 

[djbmw]

It sounds like your well pump is dying (or the capacitor/wiring is bad). The pressure tank only is relevant for the first 30 to 60 seconds of water usage... after that its all well pump. From what you said, you have no water pressure when the taps are fully open. Thats pump related (or pressure switch, capacitor, or wiring).

 

[larry_g]

I've been on well systems all my life 70+ years. Self taught but what I do. You do not need to get a pump to drain the tank!. Just add air to the shrader valve and open the nearest spigot so that it goes into the yard or sink drain. Add air to the tank tank the flow stops. Now you have an empty tank. Charge it with air to your 30 psi and turn on the pump. This should get you going.

After the tank fills with water cut the pump off and reopen the spigot and you should get 1/3 to 1/2 tank volume to flow into a bucket or bathtub. If so all is good.

Another good check is to time the fill from cut in to cut off. Should be near a minute. IF the tank fills in a few seconds the tank is waterlogged with no air in it. This is short cycling the pump and will hurt it is short order. The pressure tanks job is to prevent the pump from cycling to often. You should be able to draw down near 1/2 the tank volume before the pump kicks in to refill. A low flow shower head is ~2gpm so you should be able to shower without the pump kicking on more than once, depending on its fill state when you start.

I disagree with the poster djbmw

lg
no neat sig line

 

[djbmw]

I've been on well systems all my life 70+ years. Self taught but what I do. You do not need to get a pump to drain the tank!. Just add air to the shrader valve and open the nearest spigot so that it goes into the yard or sink drain. Add air to the tank tank the flow stops. Now you have an empty tank. Charge it with air to your 30 psi and turn on the pump. This should get you going.

After the tank fills with water cut the pump off and reopen the spigot and you should get 1/3 to 1/2 tank volume to flow into a bucket or bathtub. If so all is good.

Another good check is to time the fill from cut in to cut off. Should be near a minute. IF the tank fills in a few seconds the tank is waterlogged with no air in it. This is short cycling the pump and will hurt it is short order. The pressure tanks job is to prevent the pump from cycling to often. You should be able to draw down near 1/2 the tank volume before the pump kicks in to refill. A low flow shower head is ~2gpm so you should be able to shower without the pump kicking on more than once, depending on its fill state when you start.

I disagree with the poster djbmw

lg
no neat sig line

Its the well pump that creates water pressure while in use. The pressure tank is only used to smooth out pressure variances. OP said he has NO WATER PRESSURE when a tap is open (unless he mis-typed). Water pressure is NOT generated from the pressure tank.

What dont you agree with from my post, specifically?

 

[PCustoms]

It sounds like your well pump is dying (or the capacitor/wiring is bad). The pressure tank only is relevant for the first 30 to 60 seconds of water usage... after that its all well pump. From what you said, you have no water pressure when the taps are fully open. Thats pump related (or pressure switch, capacitor, or wiring).

This seems blatantly incorrect.

 

[djbmw]

This seems blatantly incorrect.

A pressure tank is used to smooth out the pressure and prevent the pump from cycling if using water in short bursts (like washing your hands or flushing a toilette). However, when a tap is fully opened (like OP stated), its the pump that is now providing all the water (and pressure) - so, when filling a bathtub or with a garden hose on, your pressure tank is not being used.

 

[billconner]

I said a small stream. I don't think I saw the guage below 10 pounds. And after it sits it builds back up to maybev30. What would do that other than the pump?

 

[billconner]

Thanks everyone. I'll get back to this in morming.

 

[djbmw]

I said a small stream. I don't think I saw the guage below 10 pounds. And after it sits it builds back up to maybev30. What would do that other than the pump?

Test it as close to the pump as possible - at the water inlet line. Sometime pressure switches can get debris in them, preventing the pump from kicking on reliably.

 

[MrFreeze]

If this were true, there would only be one "standard" sized tank, instead of dozens of different sizes. Tanks are rated for "draw down," which is basically how much water they can deliver when fully charged with the pump off, before the pump turns back on. A big tank could deliver close to 100 gallons.

MrFreeze

 

[kbeefy]

My well will maintain 30#+ without any kind of pressure tank. The switch (I believe) is about 30# on 50# off.

If it drops to a small stream, it seem like the well is not providing much pressure.

 

[djbmw]

If this were true, there would only be one "standard" sized tank, instead of dozens of different sizes. Tanks are rated for "draw down," which is basically how much water they can deliver when fully charged with the pump off, before the pump turns back on. A big tank could deliver close to 100 gallons.

MrFreeze

There's different pump outputs, which is why the difference in pressure tanks. Some wells can output 5gpm, others 20 gpm or more. Additionally, difderent household needs. If you have 6 bathrooms and a good water supply, a larger pressure tank will help prevent cycling when 3 or 4 people use sinks at the same time.

And yes, there are generally a handful of common pressure tank sizes.

 

[Firebrick43]

If this were true, there would only be one "standard" sized tank, instead of dozens of different sizes. Tanks are rated for "draw down," which is basically how much water they can deliver when fully charged with the pump off, before the pump turns back on. A big tank could deliver close to 100 gallons.

MrFreeze

If you use the online calculators by the tank manufacture they ask GPM, pressure, and if you want 1 min, 1.5 min, or 2 min of time, but 1 min is the standard.

 

[larry_g]

A pressure tank is used to smooth out the pressure and prevent the pump from cycling if using water in short bursts (like washing your hands or flushing a toilette). However, when a tap is fully opened (like OP stated), its the pump that is now providing all the water (and pressure) - so, when filling a bathtub or with a garden hose on, your pressure tank is not being used.

What you are describing is what I have in a system with a variable speed pump and a small tank. On a normal pump with a on/off pressure switch and a tank in the 40-80 gallon range the pressure tank should deliver 20 to 40 gallons of water before the pump cycles. That should near 5 minutes of delivery before the pump has to recharge the tank.

I would like the OP to time the cycle time of the pump in his system so that it would be easier to determine if he is having pump problems or the tank is waterlogged and the pump is cycling every few seconds.

lg
no neat sig line

 

[djbmw]

What you are describing is what I have in a system with a variable speed pump and a small tank. On a normal pump with a on/off pressure switch and a tank in the 40-80 gallon range the pressure tank should deliver 20 to 40 gallons of water before the pump cycles. That should near 5 minutes of delivery before the pump has to recharge the tank.

I would like the OP to time the cycle time of the pump in his system so that it would be easier to determine if he is having pump problems or the tank is waterlogged and the pump is cycling every few seconds.

lg
no neat sig line

An 80 gallon water pressure tank in a residential home?!... That's one massive house!
20 to 40 gallons are the standard residential home sizes .. look at the chart that Firebrick43 posted above, or look at any other online chart for pump flow + pressure switch cut on/off. You must have one crazy water system as it's not normal by the way you describe it.

As stated above, and confirmed by the chart Firebrick43 posted (and others available online), a pressure tank is only meant to smooth out the pressure variances when small amounts of water are used, thereby preventing the pump from cycling when it's not needed.

The OP has an issue with water pressure when the taps are wide open. This 100% tells me it's related to the pumping system, and NOT the pressure tank. So, OP needs to check the following:

With a few taps wide open, does the pressure switch automatically and consistently trip when the cut on pressure is reached (30 psi i believe you said)? Or, is it sporadic, only switching on some of the time? If it's only some of the time, you'll need to either remove and clean the pressure switch, or just replace it. Can you manually use the little metal lever on your pressure switch to reliably turn the pump on and off? If not, can you bridge the contacts with an insulated screw driver (careful, that's live voltage across those terminals)? If the pump only occasionally kicks on from you manually bridging the connection, then use a multimeter with capacitance settings and measure the pump capacitor (you should properly and safely discharge the cap before testing. If you dont know how to do this - dont attempt it as the cap has enough juice to seriously harm you).

If the switch is good AND the cap is good but the pump still isnt reliably kicking on, or producing the 50 or 60 psi that your switch cut off is set to, your pump is likely the next thing to check. This generally consists of pulling the pump from the well - inspecting the wiring and, if it's a relatively new pump, testing it in a large drum of water (with a restrictor valve attached to the output to simulate head/water weight for proper function)

 

[larry_g]

An 80 gallon water pressure tank in a residential home?!... That's one massive house!
20 to 40 gallons are the standard residential home sizes .. look at the chart that Firebrick43 posted above, or look at any other online chart for pump flow + pressure switch cut on/off. You must have one crazy water system as it's not normal by the way you describe it.

You are again making assumptions on what is normal. My normal is a farm with animals, orchards and gardens.

lg
no neat sig line

 

[djbmw]

You are again making assumptions on what is normal. My normal is a farm with animals, orchards and gardens.

lg
no neat sig line

You were the one that said it was normal though - I didn't assume it.
This is your quote: "On a normal pump with a on/off pressure switch and a tank in the 40-80 gallon range..."

 

[PCustoms]

Well this thread has gone to ****.

Hope the OP has enough water pressure for one last flush

 

[Codyboy]

Well this thread has gone to ****.

Hope the OP has enough water pressure for one last flush

Water pressure is not needed to flush a toilet.

 

[Codyboy]

An 80 gallon water pressure tank in a residential home?!... That's one massive house!
20 to 40 gallons are the standard residential home sizes .. look at the chart that Firebrick43 posted above, or look at any other online chart for pump flow + pressure switch cut on/off. You must have one crazy water system as it's not normal by the way you describe it.

As stated above, and confirmed by the chart Firebrick43 posted (and others available online), a pressure tank is only meant to smooth out the pressure variances when small amounts of water are used, thereby preventing the pump from cycling when it's not needed.

The OP has an issue with water pressure when the taps are wide open. This 100% tells me it's related to the pumping system, and NOT the pressure tank. So, OP needs to check the following:

With a few taps wide open, does the pressure switch automatically and consistently trip when the cut on pressure is reached (30 psi i believe you said)? Or, is it sporadic, only switching on some of the time? If it's only some of the time, you'll need to either remove and clean the pressure switch, or just replace it. Can you manually use the little metal lever on your pressure switch to reliably turn the pump on and off? If not, can you bridge the contacts with an insulated screw driver (careful, that's live voltage across those terminals)? If the pump only occasionally kicks on from you manually bridging the connection, then use a multimeter with capacitance settings and measure the pump capacitor (you should properly and safely discharge the cap before testing. If you dont know how to do this - dont attempt it as the cap has enough juice to seriously harm you).

If the switch is good AND the cap is good but the pump still isnt reliably kicking on, or producing the 50 or 60 psi that your switch cut off is set to, your pump is likely the next thing to check. This generally consists of pulling the pump from the well - inspecting the wiring and, if it's a relatively new pump, testing it in a large drum of water (with a restrictor valve attached to the output to simulate head/water weight for proper function)

I think my tank is 82 gallons. Galvanized steel tank no bladder.
On at 45psi off at 65psi. I think.
It was lower than that when they installed it but I bumped it up a smidge.

 

[djbmw]

I think my tank is 82 gallons. Galvanized steel tank no bladder.
On at 45psi off at 65psi. I think.
It was lower than that when they installed it but I bumped it up a smidge.

Thats a crazy big pressure tank. My hot water tank for my 2400 sq ft home is 60 gallons...
I just looked up images of 80 gallon pressure tanks and they are massive! Like 5 feet tall. Crazy stuff.

 

[robin1731]

Does the OP have a whole house filter? If that filter is plugged/partially plugged it would cause this issue.

 

[billconner]

Thanks again. A lot I don't understand but will attack it all right after breakfast.

I believe in trying the easy and simple fixed first - is it plugged in, does it have gas - so will try larry_g's suggestion of draining tank, pressurizing to just under 40 psf, and restarting.

After that, I'll post tank size. Then run water and time the pressure drop and measure pressures, just to clear up those aspects. And then probably try to answer some of djbmw's suggestions/questions, but so much there that I'm clueless on. First, how do I even tell if/when pump is running? And while I deal with a lot of electric things the pressure switch is totally unfamiliar to me.

 

[billconner]

OK. no water run all night and both the Guage on the system and my tire pressure gauge says just a smidge under 50 pounds. Internet says this is a 25.9 gallon tank. All I know of pump is it on a 2 pole 20 amp breaker, so nothing. About to run some water in utility sink next to tank which thoughtfully I believe is tapped from supply before the shut off to rest of house.

 

[OccupantRJ]

How dry has it been there lately?

 

[billconner]

Well, totally mystified. Water ran fine. In maybe ainute or a little more pressure gauge hit 40 and then started to climb to 60. Again, not knowing much at all about this stuff, it seems to indicate the pump and switch is fine. Make sense?

Now going to look for leaks elsewhere - hose bibs first.

 

[billconner]

How dry has it been there lately?

Dry but not real dry. Thought of that. When I seeded a lot of lawn and ran sprinklers a year ago, I drew the level below intake.

 

[PCustoms]

Post a pic showing the plumbing to the right, including the water softener setup please

 

[PCustoms]

Dry but not real dry. Thought of that. When I seeded a lot of lawn and ran sprinklers a year ago, I drew the level below intake.

 

[moab11]

Is your well running dry?

 

[billconner]

D2

I closed the interior ball valves for hose bibs but in looking at them outside they were dry. My suspicion is we have one toilet that sometimes runs - 1 in 30 flushes? - that I hear but my wife doesn't. My best guess at the moment.

Still looking and reading here.

 

[billconner]

Is your well running dry?

Possibility as noted but has not before in previous years when it had been drier - just the lawn sprinkler incident - which recovered in hours.

 

[billconner]

I found no sign of a leak or water running. It could have been a low well but odd it showed up after I was out of town 3 days - much less water usage.

My best guess - and purely guess - is the heavy mineral deposits affecting the pressure switch. Wish I understood it better than what Google tells me. I need to take one apart.

 

[pcmeiners]

If this is happening with the pump switch powering the pump, you may have a well which is dry. My well is running dry, this region is in a drought, some aquifers are at a very low level. For the last 2 years my well at 267 feet is running dry at this time of the year, this year is the worst. In my well the water static level of the water drops over over 120 feet during droughts, until the pump **** air or until the pump has less and less ability to pump water from the greater depth. Once there is considerable rain the aquifers rejuvenate which can take a day or weeks. At this point my well has been almost dry for 3 months, I am having another well drilled in the next month for $12k.

If this were true, there would only be one "standard" sized tank, instead of dozens of different sizes. Tanks are rated for "draw down," which is basically how much water they can deliver when fully charged with the pump off, before the pump turns back on. A big tank could deliver close to 100 gallons.

Have one of those big bladder tanks ( 120 gallon). They do not supply anything near a 100 gallons, more like 30-40 gallon as the pressure only allows them to fill about 1/3 of the total volume. I have that tank and another smaller tank which can supply me with a day's water if there is an issue with the pump, that is without major water use such as using a washing machine.

As to mineral deposits on the switch..... Pressure switches are simply a contactor controlled by pressure, they are not going to be affected by mineral deposits.

 

[Codyboy]

Is this a deep well with a submersible pump or shallow well that has a jet pump?

I would definitely check the operation of the pressure switch.
Some are wired to not run if the well is dry to prevent burning up the pump.
Once the water underground has recharged it will work again.