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Well water pressure

modeltford

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Olalla, WA
Living in a small development in the sticks, we're on a shared well with one other home, Well is on our property, and when the developer had it drilled, he had the driller stop when the output was enough to be legal for the 2 homes. at 7 gpm, thay isn't anywhere near enough, so had to add to the system. Water goes into a 1500 gallon tank, then pumped to 2 - 80 gallon pressure tanks - then to the 2 houses.

The biggest problem we have - and cause for my question - is most of the time the pressure is **** - but not always. The other house is currently empty, so that's not the problem, and it's not always bad. I've tried adjusting the pressure valve, but doesn't seem to make a difference. Water is not treated - so pretty hard - not sure that makes any difference! Anyone have any ideas what I can do - what to check?

Thanks guys!

Rich
 
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Junkman

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I have no idea of the problem, because I have never seen a system that you describe, but my advice is below....

Cut the line to the other house, and when they complain, suggest that they drill their own well. Offer to work with them on the costs, and eliminate the problem with neighbors sharing wells. One quick question comes to mind........ who is paying to pump the water? It is a bad situation, and I would fix it now before it becomes a problem with the neighbor when the house is occupied. Even if you have to drill your own well on your own property, you should be in control of your water... Junk......
 

47bob

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Las Vegas, NV
Rich, What is needed is gauges on the output of the pressure pump and output from the pressure tank so you can better monitor your system. There may be pressure lossed due to a defective pump or damaged pressure tank internals. While living in Hawaii I used much the same system, with a catchment supply, for my household and had awesome pressure (like 50-60 psi). Hope this helps. .....Bob
 

CraigFL

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Panama City, FL
Agree we need to know more but... the 80 gal "pressure tanks" are probably tanks with a bladder in them and pressurized to try to keep the pressure constant during the flow. You not only need to check the pressure at the faucets but in the bladder to be sure it's properly pressurized -- should be a shroeder type air valve like you find on your car tire.

Each 80 gal tank should feed one house. If they are in parallel and feeding both houses, usage in the other house could affect the pressure in yours.


I agree with Junkman in that this will be a problem in the near future. Who's paying for the electricity, repairs and maybe even a deeper drilling if required. Best to seperate but you will need to make concessions too in order to do this.
 

mulepackin

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Montana
Defective air bladder pressure tanks have always been the culprit on our systems when we have a pressure loss. I have never liked them, but I don't know of any other systems available?
 
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modeltford

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Olalla, WA
junk - unfortunately, cutting line is not an option - and even with someone there, the pressure hasn't been different. Only problem we've had there is when they left on 2 sprinklers & drained the tank - amazing how long it takes to fill 1660 gallons a 7 gpm!!

Bob - Not sure what the pressure is - I'li check when I get home tonite, but think it's in that range - at least most of the time!

Craig - yes, bladder tanks - system designer/installer felt it would improve pressure to both homes - I kinda wonder.... pressure didn't seem to change when I shut line to that house off.

mule - was wondering that myself - don't know of any other way of doing it other than a tank up in the air - NOT an option!!

Ira - I'm headed there now - thanks for the tip!

Thanks for the input - I'll let you know what I find out!

Rich
 

OldCarGuy

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What pressure do you actually have? Is there another pump from the first tank to each house? In theory the pump switch should keep the pump running until it reaches the set pressure.


When I first purchased my house the well only put out 3.5 GPM at maybe 20 PSI. The stream of water coming out of a garden hose was lucky to go five feet. I put in a larger submersible pump, from 1/2 to 3/4 HP, which increased the flow rate to 7 GPM at 40 PSI. However the well started sucking sand. Seams as though the rate and pressure were deliberately restricted for that reason. That well was only 80 feet deep and in sand….

I drilled a new well, at a cost of mega bucks, 100 feet deeper until I hit bedrock. Installed a One HP submersible pump, 1 1/4" lines, and a 100 gallon pressure vessel. I now have at least 25 GPM at 60 PSI. No problems now!
 

FunfDreisig

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Feb 12, 2008
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The biggest problem we have - and cause for my question - is most of the time the pressure is **** - but not always....Water is not treated - so pretty hard - not sure that makes any difference! Anyone have any ideas what I can do - what to check?
You could fix your water pressure and water quality with a simple rain water collection system.

FWIW we only get 32 in. of rain a year, have a 1,100 sqft roof and a 10,000 gal tank for ALL of our water usage (2 adults). With more rain and/or more roof we could use an even smaller tank. Filtration is simple, one spun filer, one charcoal filter and a UV light in series with an on demand pump -> yields great tasting, safe water at 65 PSI.

Funf Dreisig
 

mulepackin

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Only 32 in. per year! Thats pretty considerable. I don't think the original poster, in Wa. gets that much. We have been lucky to eke out 12 in. the past sev. years, and we're not even an arid state. I'm all for a rain water collection system, but you've got to have some first.
 

Lloydthumper

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The water pressure differance is probally coming from when the pump kicks on or off I have the same problem when the pump is running water pressure is great and when the pump is not running it stinks but I do have three filter on my incoming water to so it kills the flow. What I was going to do was put a inline pressure booster after my filters and Possibly another bladder tank with a check valve on it to see if that helped I just hope it doesn't hurt the effiency of my filters.
 

Charles (in GA)

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50 mi south of Atlanta
We have a community water system where I live. Three wells, three separate systems. All are drilled deep wells, casing to the bedrock (middle Georgia piedmont region, where the rock is zero to fifty foot down) and then the hole continues into the rock. All three of our wells are in the 500 to 600 ft range. All have 5 hp pumps with 1-1/2" pipe to the surface. Two have 1500 gallon pressure tanks with a head of air on them, one feeds 11 houses, and one feeds 9 houses. The third is different, we cheaped out, and installed four 115 gal bladder tanks all plumbed to a common manifold. Drawdown on the tanks (thats the amount of water you get from peak 60 psi pressure down to 40 psi pump cut in) is about 35 gals per tank, and that well feeds 12 houses. We never have any issues with it, except for one person who complains because it doesn't blow out of the faucet like a fire hose.

*****

The system you have is no different than these except that a low flow well fills the 1500 gal tank, and the high pressure pump gets its water from there instead of directly from the well. Your pressure switch should cut the pump on at about 40 psi, and cut it off at 60 psi. To set the tank bladder pressures, shut off the pump, open the faucets, bleed all pressure off of the system. Check the air pressure on the tanks at the schrader valve on top. It should be set at two to five pounds BELOW the switch cut in pressure (which should be 40 psi, but might be something different). Other pressure switches are available for 20 on/40 off, 30 on/50 off and as I mentioned, 40 on/60 off.

When servicing the air in the tanks, it should come up to pressure, say 38 psi, just like a tire, and hold that pressure. If it keeps taking air, and gurgling, and won't hold the pressure, the bladder is busted and the bladder or the tank will need to be replaced. A properly serviced 80 gal tank, on a 40/60 pressure switch, will put out about 24 gals of water (each tank, so double this for the two tanks) from the time the pumps shuts off, until the time the pump turns back on, This is know as drawdown. At lower pressures, you get more gals of drawdown. (20/40 gives you 32 gals, 30/50 gives you 27 gals.). After setting the air pressure in the bladder for each tank, tightly cap the schrader valves on each tank with a cap with a seal inside it so a leaking valve won't mess you up. Then turn the pump back on and close the faucets.

You should also have a check valve between the pressure pump and the well tanks. This is to keep the tanks from pushing water back thru the pump when it is not running. This could be bad and causing you leakage of pressure.

Your pressure switch could be bad, or not working consistently, you might simply replace it, they are not expensive. Get a good one, a Square D, and not one of the cheep Chinese knockoffs. Home stores and plumbing supply stores have them, just ask for a well pressure switch of what ever pressure rating you need (they don't take kindly to having the pressure cranked way up or down from their design pressure, so get the right one.)

Charles

Google is your friend..............

http://www.inspect-ny.com/water/watertank.htm

http://www.amtrol.com/pdf/MC4380 06_07WXTBrochure.pdf
 
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modeltford

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Olalla, WA
Wow!! Thanks for all the info, guys!

Got a bit more on what I have. System is about 5 years old - hopefully nothing has goen south that quickly! The pressure switch is a Square D -no idea what the pressure ratings are. Currently with everything at rest, the pressure is holding at 55 psi. Haven't found any info on the pumps, well is about 280 ft deep, and water line is 1-1/4". When the well was dug, we were getting about 20 gpm, but it was drawing sand, so he (the driller) put in a restrictor to 7 gpm.

Currently both tanks are run in series - our thought is to split them so one feeds each house. Does it make sense to do that?

As for a rainwater collection system - we actually have one - goes back into the ground thru a drainfield - and Seattle area gets about 36 inches a year - where we are is about the same as whereever FunfDreiseig lives. We've thought about it for the gardens, just not practical on our lot.

Rich
 

Charles (in GA)

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Splitting the tanks would be more trouble than its worth. The pump has to have an accumulator (tank) to properly maintain pressure and operate properly. You would have to have two pumps to make it worth it, otherwise, I really don't see how it would make any difference at all. As I mentioned, I am on a system with about ten other houses and four of those tanks all ganged together pushing water into the main, and nary a problem. You need to look at pressures of the tank and switch with accurate gauges and get everything set. 55 pounds is great, if you are not getting FLOW, that is another issue altogether, a rock in a line, a glue joint that is nearly blocked with glue, etc.

Charles
 

FunfDreisig

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Only 32 in. per year! Thats pretty considerable. I don't think the original poster, in Wa. gets that much. We have been lucky to eke out 12 in. the past sev. years, and we're not even an arid state. I'm all for a rain water collection system, but you've got to have some first.
Everything is relative :)

The Central Texas AVERAGE of 32 inches a year seems like a flood to many places west of here. And a mere trickle to many places east of here. Check out this map of average annual rainfall.

BTW when sizing the tanks for a rainwater collection system, the frequency/consistency of the rainfall is as important as the average annual amounts. Our 10,000 gal galvalum tank is 15.5 ft in diameter and only 7' high which allows it to be fed directly from the gutter on the cabin. The water level stays about the same if we get roughly 1" of rainfall a month. IOW even with only 1,100 sqft of roof we could easily live on only 12 in/yr IF we could get it regular like :)

Funf Dreisig
 
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modeltford

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Charles - well it SEEMED like a good idea! Thought I could split the two systems where it feeds to the second pressure tank & that would work OK - but thinking about it, can see where it might not! Wouldn't I get the use of both and the neighbor only get use of one??

Pressure at the tap increases when the pump starts - stays high while tank pump is on. From what I read so far, wondering if pressure switch is the problem. System is about 5 years old (doesn't feel like we've been in this house that long!) and pressure used to be better.

Rich
 

FunfDreisig

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...Pressure at the tap increases when the pump starts - stays high while tank pump is on....
That is how an on-demand system WITHOUT a pressure tank would work. Are you sure your pressure tank bladder is holding pressure?

Funf Dreisig
 
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modeltford

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My gut reaction to that would be to say yes it is - was at 55 psi resting & hadn't been used in at least 6 hours. I certainly hope the tanks are OK, since the entire system is only about 5 years old!

Maybe I didn't describe system very well. Have pump in well - about 290 ft deep - believe it's 1 hp, may be only 3/4. This pumps thru a restrictor into a 1550 gallon reserve tank, which has a pump in it to feed the system. water then goes into 2 - 80 gallon bladder tanks, then to the 2 homes thru 1-1/4in flex plastic pipe. Once in house, all plumbing is copper.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm assuming that the 1550 gal tank would be the accumulator? So splitting system would be fairly simple?

Seattle rain is pretty unique! We get about 32 - 36 inches in a normal year, and rains fairly often, but rarely very hard. I walked 2-1/2 miles in the rain today - got damp. not wet! A rainwater collection system would probably worl well here, at least for garden water - not sure about reliable enough for all water!

Rich
 

Charles (in GA)

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An accumulator in any hydraulic system (and that is all this is) is a vessel with a head of air pressure on it, to dampen the surges and provide pressure when the pump is not running. In aircraft hydraulic systems, they use either round steel balls with rubber diaphgrams (just like your well tank) or cylinder like units with a floating piston in it, fluid on one side, nitrogen on the other. These provide pressure for brakes and such when the pumps are off. Your 1500 gal tank is simply a storage reservoir. In most well systems, the "reservoir" is the earth itself, since you cannot draw fast enough from the ground, your system adds this extra storage capacity above ground.

The only way I can see to split it is to have two pressure pumps drawing from the 1500 gal reservoir and pumping to their own pressure tanks and houses. You cannot have one pressure pump supplying two pressure tanks that are isolated with checkvalves, as any draw on either system will require the one pump to come on to replenish the pressure. believe me, the two tanks and supply to two houses are not your problem. If the system holds 55 psi for hours on end and both pressure tank bladders are properly serviced and working, you do not have a problem. If the pressure in the house is low, your problem is elsewhere, clogged faucet aireators or screens, a clogged whole house filter you don't know exists (under the house possibly?), a glue joint in a pipe that flowed excess glue into the pipe, effective damming or restricting it, a rock or other contaminates in the line.

It does sound like you could stand to raise your pressure switch a few pounds however. Lady down the road had a drilled well put in in March. It was holding 60 psi at cut off then, the other day it was down to 53 psi, the switch had worn in and the spring settled a little, so I adjusted it slightly to get it back to 60 and the switch on pressure back up to 40 psi.

We have one community well here with the pressure switch exposed on top of a 1500 gal pressure tank in the open in direct sunlight. The max pressure varies depending on the outside temperature if cloudy or bright sun. The spring and metal in the pressure switch reacts to temperature as you would expect it to, and this causes variations in pressure. I have been tracking this with a digital pressure recorder, I record at 5 sec intervals for hours on end and graph the data to see water usage trends. Its so good I can blow up the graph and show you slight pressure variations that are people flushing commodes at 4 in the morning (I've actually show persons the graph and had them confirm that for that morning that was exactly when and what they were doing!).

Most public water systems require you to have a regulator to limit pressure to 60 psi since due to terrain and such the pressure might be much higher in the main (water tank at top of hill, you at the bottom of a valley). In England, the public systems are only required to give you 1 (one) bar of pressure at the street tap. That amounts to about 12 psi if my memory is correct, and virtually zero pressure on the second floor.

If your line to the house is long and small, you might consider installing another pressure tank at the house (basement or garage, etc) and installing a check valve to let water to the house, but keep water from the house/tank from pushing back to the well house. This will give you an accumulator of pressurized water right at the house, and possibly remedy flow issues.

Keep in mind you have to have at least one bladder or pressure tank with air head on it, directly plumbed to the pump (which is what you have right now). If you don't the pressure switch will go crazy and be switching on and off almost instantly, the pressure tanks dampen the system and prevent this (remember, water itself is not compressible, so you have to have the air "head" on the tank in some form, as the air is what you are compressing, not the water.

Have you measured the pressure at your house? Put a pressure gauge on a faucet and note the pressure, start running water elsewhere (bathtub, etc) and see what happens to the pressure. Does it fall off slowly, and never below the pressure at which the pump cuts on? or does it drop very low quickly? if it drops low and fast, then you have some sort of line restriction coming to the house.

Sorry to be so long winded, its just that I hate to see someone waste money on something that won't fix their problem.

Charles
 

FunfDreisig

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My gut reaction to that would be to say yes it is - was at 55 psi resting & hadn't been used in at least 6 hours. ...
My on-demand rain water system will hold 65 PSI indefinitely (e.g. all weekend if we're away) and I don't have ANY pressure tank in the system. But when we open a tap, the pressure drops to 40 psi in less than a second and the pump kicks in bringing the pressure back up to 65 PSI just a quickly. Our pump is designed to do this but most well pumps are not. They require a pressure tank like Charles describes to reduce their cycling on and off too much.

FWIW one way to test a pressure tank is to cut the power to the pump and then turn on a tap. An 80Gal pressure tank should deliver several gallons of water at fairly good pressure if the bladder is OK. But it will deliver almost no water if the bladder is busted. If I turn off my on-demand pump and open a tap, I'll get less than a tea cup of water. I only get that much because there is still a little air in a few pipes to outside hose bibs I haven't installed yet.

Funf Dreisig
 

scofo

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Hey folks, FWIW I have a well in CenTex. Lots of limestone, anyway cold side flow got real bad, slow toilet tank refilling etc... but hot water was fine. Cut the cold water line at the far end of house and found it full of white crystaline stuff. Looked like the guts of a "Beanbag" but found none in hot side.Flushed it out, worked fine. Later i found out why the hot side was okay when the water heater element went out. Yea, you quessed it, full of limestone, took hours to scoop and flush heater, replace element with one rated for sand? We'll see.
 

FunfDreisig

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Hey folks, FWIW I have a well in CenTex. Lots of limestone, anyway cold side flow got real bad, slow toilet tank refilling etc... but hot water was fine. Cut the cold water line at the far end of house and found it full of white crystaline stuff. Looked like the guts of a "Beanbag" but found none in hot side.Flushed it out, worked fine. Later i found out why the hot side was okay when the water heater element went out. Yea, you quessed it, full of limestone, took hours to scoop and flush heater, replace element with one rated for sand? We'll see.
This is why I don't have a well :)

BTW a complete rain water system costs less than most wells in central Texas west of the balconies escarpment (AKA the Texas Hill Country). And rainwater does not have to be treated for hardness. In fact, rain water is slightly acidic so it leaves almost no deposits in/on plumbing fixtures, etc.

Funf Dreisig
 
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modeltford

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Olalla, WA
Charles - don't mind you being "long winded" at all - appreciate all the knowledge!! :beer:

So instead of simply teeing the two tanks to seperate, I'd need to install a second pump in the reserve tank and create a second system? Not an option, unless the buyer of the other house wants to pay for it!

Fortunately, everythign is inside, and tho uninsulated, building is in the shade most of the day, and heated in winter as needed.

sounds like what ineed ot do is test the pressure like you say, then adjust or even replace the pressure switch. I do regularly check the faucet aerators, but think I'll pull apart the kitchen faucet to check it out - that's the one that seems to have the biggest problem, besides the outdoor bibs.

Sure appreciate all the info from everyone, and Funf Dreisig - thinking of doing the rainwater recovery for the gardens at the next house - not feasible here - but still an excellent idea!

will work on it this weekend, and let you know!

Rich
 
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