Were these just for racking support or do I need to keep them?

[thetmaxx]

Anyone have an idea if the 45 degree supports at the poles are actually helping support my trusses in this 30x40 pole barn shop?
I've disabled the old florescent lights mounted to them in favor of modern LEDs and wanted to pull them and the supports. None of my other 30' span shops needed them. We were thinking it was just for racking when the shop was built or for the lights themselves.

Trying to mount some shelving up there.
Thanks!

 

[cvairwerks]

Think they are structural elements. If you remove them, it would appear that just a few nails or screws hold the trusses in place.

 

[The Cobbler]

I agree with above

 

[Steve W.]

Have someone hold your beer (and a camera), let us know how it goes.

.

 

[firebirdparts]

needed

The way that was done, there's no way that could help you during construction. The whole idea of pole barns is you put the pole way down in the earth and then you don't need that nor much of anything else, either, and that makes it a lot cheaper. If you decide the poles go way down in the earth, then you would conclude you do have a lot of wind resistance without those. You can decide if that's enough.

 

[The Cobbler]

You can decide if that's enough

or maybe the building engineer...

 

[Youngandfree]

Are they on both sides? If they were "just for lights", it likely wouldn't be tandem braces on each pole.

 

[tarmy]

Those being removed will make for some excellent hinge points when the wind blows. OP…you either need to keep them or get some advice about alternative bracing.

 

[jack stand]

Do not remove them!

 

[NUTTSGT]

If it was built that way, I would leave them.


Are the double trusses set merely the posts or is the post cut and sandwiched between the trusses ?

 

[mike93lx]

I'd have no problem moving them a little to facilitate shelving but I would not remove them

 

[OccupantRJ]

Triangulation is a thing. I would be leaving them and putting shelving at the bottom of them.

 

[billconner]

While I would be optimistic they could be removed, I wouldn't do it without consulting with the building designer or a registered structural engineer. I don't see braces like this on many other post frame buildings and don't see why the double trusses at 12' (?) spacing would require it. It does look like the trusses are I set into the posts for a good moment connection. High wind area?

Looks a lot like Hansen Pole Buildings style.

 

[manwithtools]

Do your posts go into the ground or are they fastened to the slab? I had a 30 x 40 with similar braces and the post where fastened to the slab. The braces in that case help resist racking. If the posts go "x" feet into the ground and the trusses are set into the posts it's likely they would not be needed.

 

[BombShelter]

I've learned over the years that any extra support is probably needed no matter how cool the space would look without it. I don't think they are supporting any weight or help transfer the load to the post but more to stop lateral movement. I'm wondering if there's a metal brace replacement (90 deg flat plate) that could do the same job and give you back that space.

Cool Jeep, kind of the same concept with the hood strut, all the weight is on the hinges but that tiny strut keeps it from shutting.

 

[The Cobbler]

I'm wondering if there's a metal brace replacement (90 deg flat plate) that could do the same job and give you back that space.

no doubt something could be engineered. in the old days you would just make something, nowadays we need to be careful of that .

 

[larry_g]

If you look at my build linked in my sig you will find my building is built to a similar plan and I do not have those braces. Note that in my build the top of the pole is NOT notched and that may play a role in your design. My building is built to spec with a stamped engineered plan set. It is near 15 years old and still standing. That said what is your snow load, and wind load?

lg
no neat sig line

 

[Fav Onefour]

The plate idea is interesting. I'd agree that in the old days that wouldn't be a big question.
You have a nice setup to add plates with the current build. The rafters appear flush to the post edges. They also have large nail plates that could be sandwiched under the added plates. The double rafter setup is helpful too. Add long double fill boards between the rafters and use through bolts with the plates.
The existing braces only tie to the bottom joist of the rafters. They are there to prevent lateral shifting of the roof/rafters on the pole structure. If you really want to go nuts, use a three leg plate that ties to the top rafter and lower joist.

Do we currently over build? I'm not sure. I recently ran across some decorative Simpson side reinforcement plates that looked like they were for ship building. If that is the current standard you'd need some help lifting new plates up there.

 

[thetmaxx]

Thank you all for your inputs!

I like the idea of hold my beer and watch this! After my divorce, I have nothing left to lose. But yes I am in a high wind area in spring and fall (North Idaho) and might welcome the sweet relief of a building falling and taking out my troubles.

For the other structural questions... The Posts are notched and the truss sits in the notch on either end. I have had two other 30' span shops built and the builder didn't use any extra bracing and he's a reputable builder. He just notches the post and sets the truss in the notch.

The poles are sunk in the ground, not anchored to the slab. I've only seen pole barns here with poles sunk 6' below frost line. But this home is new to me and is the first time I have bought an already built shop (20 years or so?) So I was ASSuMEing these supports might have not been needed based on my other shops.

So, No I cannot consult the builder, because it is so old and several builders ago. I will try to find pictures of my previous shops for reference.

Thank you all!!

 

[Hank11]

My initial thought looking at your building is that somebody took enough time and put out enough effort to build a nice building. I’d leave it alone and just work around those braces to put up your shelves and you could even use the braces to help put up the shelves.

in my mind, it’s not a pole barn, unless the poles are buried in the ground. So you have a pole barn. It’s a time tested method.

 

[thetmaxx]

If you look at my build linked in my sig you will find my building is built to a similar plan and I do not have those braces. Note that in my build the top of the pole is NOT notched and that may play a role in your design. My building is built to spec with a stamped engineered plan set. It is near 15 years old and still standing. That said what is your snow load, and wind load?

lg
no neat sig line

My builder went with 50PSF snow loading. But I have no idea what this shop was engineered to.

 

[thetmaxx]

I've learned over the years that any extra support is probably needed no matter how cool the space would look without it. I don't think they are supporting any weight or help transfer the load to the post but more to stop lateral movement. I'm wondering if there's a metal brace replacement (90 deg flat plate) that could do the same job and give you back that space.

Cool Jeep, kind of the same concept with the hood strut, all the weight is on the hinges but that tiny strut keeps it from shutting.

Not just a "Jeep" It's a WWII Veteran... A 45 Willy's ;-)

 

[Mainiac Mat]

Pole barns are vulnerable to wracking under wind induced shear, as they don't have a true shear wall (sheathing secured to a stud frame anchored at both ends).

Pole barns resist shear forces two ways. 1.) braces & 2.) the burried length of the pole and method of securing it in the hole.....

I suggest removing your braces would be a bad idea.



Pole

 

[thetmaxx]

Pole barns are vulnerable to wracking under wind induced shear, as they don't have a true shear wall (sheathing secured to a stud frame anchored at both ends).

Pole barns resist shear forces two ways. 1.) braces & 2.) the burried length of the pole and method of securing it in the hole.....

I suggest removing your braces would be a bad idea.



Pole

I see, the braces are likely there to make up for a lack of depth sinking the poles in the earth.

 

[Hank11]

I see, the braces are likely there to make up for a lack of depth sinking the poles in the earth.

More like they spread the load around to the whole structure. Imagine that the poles were just sitting on the ground - the building would push over really easy. With the braces, the roof and wall structure work together to resist racking. With the poles buried, it gets even better as all the things add up to a more rack resistant building.

 

[jack stand]

If you've ever carried a 4x8 sheet of plywood in the wind, you'll know what these braces are for!
Most buildings have multiple adjoining interior walls and these wind loads (think of the sail area of 20? 4x8 sheets) are handled by them. The trusses fastening to the posts are for uplift of the roof assembly, those braces are (primarily) for the wind load.

 

[WisJim]

Many years ago I had a job examining commercial building plans for building code compliance, and at the time pole buildings were becoming very popular and a lot of engineering was being done to determine just how the building codes needed to adapt to pole buildings. One of the resulting requirements in the code we were using was for knee braces such as in this discussion. I would not remove them!

 

[billconner]

Engineer if you want to remove them.